If you're not born-again you're not going to Heaven??

[geometer]

That is an interesting view. My question would be wouldn’t some remain, to also share in the suffering of Christ this time? Joshua did not suffer for all men.

Well, that I believe was developed by Paul, who compared his own suffering to the suffering of christ on the cross. However, if it had not been for the resurrection we would not have the witness of his descending into the upper room, sent by the father.

Paul felt a lot of guilt apparently. He wasn’t raised to walk away from the law, if he really was Jewish. He had to explain that he was a pharisee, probably because one would think from everything that he did and wrote that he was a saducee. He even became a Roman citizen to prove how very tolerant of the gentiles he was.

 

[PhiJ]

So, distracted, are you saying that some people believe that if you are not spirit filled you are not going to heaven? Some people I know believe that being filled with the spirit happens at conversion (not necessarily with any outward signs), and so do believe this. That’s more an opinion about the nature of being filled with the spirit than who is saved though.

I’ve been spirit-filled but never (to speak of) spoken in tongues… some say this means i haven’t been born-again… I say they don’t know what they’re talking about…

Absolutely.

I’ve been confirmed and… didn’t understand it… didn’t get muhc out of it, but i was Spirit filled and that totally changed me…

Of course, after a couple yrs… i began to somehow fall away… distance myself (unintentionally ) from Jesus and… well, my life went from bad to wrose (i was very young, uncatechized, etc…) and finally hit rock bottom… It was then that i found a rosary and… well… a miracle happened… i didn’t just use it for a decoration… I prayed the thing one day, when i didn’t even feel the least inclined to do so… very strange… but changed my entire life…

The RCC gives people a grounding… a needed foundation… That spirit-filled thing is good but it doesn’t necessarily keep you in Christ… because we are SO human, so frail… so clue-less …

Well, let’s see what scripture says. I’ve heard Ephesians 5:18 quoted a lot, often translated along the lines of ‘be filled with the spirit’, but i hear the greek tense means ‘continue being filled with the spirit’ or ‘be continually filled with the spirit’. Looking at it in its immediate context, it is in a list of ‘Don’t do this: do that’ Which is interesting. Nonetheless, we are commanded to be filled with the spirit.

In the examples in Acts, being filled with the spirit for the first time does (always I think) come with some kind of outward sign, and I see this as an important point. The bible appears to teach that this is not a one-off event though, but at most should be the beginning of an unending period of being filled with the spirit.

So when you say being spirit-filled doesn’t necessarily keep you in Christ, I don’t have any verses to contradict or agree with you (maybe there are some in there). In your example it looks like you were filled with the spirit once, and then when you were falling away you stopped being filled with the spirit. Do you think that’s fair? Remember that being filled is something we must continually do.

As for ‘the RCC gives people a grounding, a needed foundation’ I’m not a catholic, so not surprisingly, I disagree over whether a roman catholic church does that any more than any other church, but I will point out that we are commanded in Hebrews 10:23-25 to meet together (and reccomend that you read the context, as it is great!) Historically I think that this would be in context of a church.

“Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.”

And finally, the gifts of the spirit were primarily given for the building up of the local church. For instance in 1 Corinthians 12:7, Paul says “Now to each one the manefestation of the spirit is given for the common good.” And Paul denotes the entirety of 1 Cor 14 (which is not a short chapter) to the use of mainly prophecy and tounges within the local church. The goal of using the gifts should be so that the church may be edified.

 

[distracted]

Well, it meant a lot to Thomas…

might mean something to me if i could fully u/stand it…

 

[distracted]

The Scriptures say one must be born again.

the term needs to be defined… means different things to different people…

 

[distracted]

So when you say being spirit-filled doesn’t necessarily keep you in Christ, I don’t have any verses to contradict or agree with you (maybe there are some in there). In your example it looks like you were filled with the spirit once, and then when you were falling away you stopped being filled with the spirit. Do you think that’s fair? Remember that being filled is something we must continually do.

The Spirit never totally left… but in ways i can’t explain… something not too good happened to me… I wasn’t grounded, as i said… I didn’t know the catechism of the Church or about the Real PResence or anything… My family was Catholic on Sunday & that was about it… What’s that saying A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing? None at all can be worse… Ignorance is only bliss for a season
(… when that ignorance is leading us into sin… as it usually does). i was ignorant and i know God forgives such things… & everything. But sin does terrible things to a person’s soul… and now i am paying for all that damage… (which is Purgatory - whether i do this purgation here on Earth and/or in the afterlife…)

As for ‘the RCC gives people a grounding, a needed foundation’ I’m not a catholic, so not surprisingly, I disagree over whether a roman catholic church does that any more than any other church,

it does… but i doubt i will convince you. It would be like trying to get another person who’s never been to hawaii to experience Hawaii in his mind as though he were actually there… with mere words… doesn’t work…

 

[Mel_Stones]

what Church do you go to??? Regular confession??? I never see anyone going to Confession… yet everyone goes to Communion… hmm…

Frequent confession is highly recommended but not required. ‘Everyone’ may go to confession at a different time than you, or at a different parish, or not see the benefit of frequent confession. The only time confession is required before communion is for mortal sin and communion must be received at least once during the Tridum (not sure on spelling but between Holy Thursday and Easter Sunday).

I’ve been spirit-filled but never (to speak of) spoken in tongues… some say this means i haven’t been born-again… I say they don’t know what they’re talking about…

I agree speaking in tongues in not a sure and only sign of being baptized in the Holy Spirit but some Protestants do believe it is.

but i was born again yrs later… and well… THAT was a HUGE thing… and i totally (more/less) understood it… except that none of us understands all the mysteries of God… and following Christ…

How were you born again - by saying the ‘sinner’s prayer’? Because my point is, we (Catholics) do that constantly. It is not a one time event. Salvation is an on going process.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born again? 5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

5 “Unless a man be born again”… By these words our Saviour hath declared the necessity of baptism; and by the word water it is evident that the application of it is necessary with the words. Matt. 28. 19.

Also infants

 

[distracted]

I recall listening to a program on EWTN radio where a priest said that all Catholics are “born again” and accept Jesus as our lord and savior. We were born again at our Baptism and accept Jesus through the sacraments.

i don’t agree… not totally.

we are all given the Holy Spirit at (in my case, Infant) baptism…

but the Holy Spirit can be “lost” through sin…

and i have had what the protestants call a “born-again” experience, wht the Church calls being filled with the Holy Spirit… IT is 2 different things…

i know that i have always HAD the Holy Spirit, to one degree or another… because even when i was ‘out there’ in the world doing things the Chuch didn’t approve of (some of which i knew of and some i was totally ignorant of)… i still would NOT do certain other things… instinctively knew they wre wrong… Still, i was not in a good place, spiritually & otherwise…In hindsight i see i was incredibly weak because even whne i began to see tht certain things were wrong… i didn’t have to power to overcome… I needed the Church but didn’t know it… didn’t have a miniscule clue… which is a reminder that we should all teach others the Catholic faith… as best we can… I didn’t know the Faith when young(er), even though i was a cradle Catholic… had to study it myself several yrs ago…

In any case, my life testimony is proof that you can be baptized AND be filled with the Holy Spirit and yet still… fall… Getting right with God (objectively speaking) is a matter of knowing the Church’s teachings and CHOOSING to follow them…

 

[distracted]

How were you born again - by saying the ‘sinner’s prayer’? Because my point is, we (Catholics) do that constantly. It is not a one time event. Salvation is an on going process.

protestants may not believe this but i was “born-again” (filled w/ the Spirit) when i wasn’t 1) in a church of any kind 2) wasn’t being prompted by anyone 3) didn’t say any prayer at all…

it went like this:

I was emotionally hurting years ago… and i was thinking of whom i could talk to … so i could possibly begin to feel better… when it suddenly occurred to me that no one in the world would totally understand (or care?). I was very young when the “incident” happened that got me so hurt… Anyway… I was all alone, just … nature (trees, etc)… I thought about going to talk to my mother but just knew she wouldn’t get it… and that no one else would either…
From going to Church every Sunday since about 8… i remembered hearing the priest speak of how “God loves us unconditionally”. When i remembered that, i turned my attention to God and was immediately, without asking, filled with the Holy Spirit… didn’t even say a prayer… It was so strong i felt i would faint… so i said to God, “Ok… i can’t handle anymore…” I felt like i might die or something… (a Road to Damascus kind of thing??)

anyway… i was a totally different person after that expeirence… fell in love with Jesus, read the New Testament, couldn’t get enough of Jesus… happiest time of my life… (until i discovered the Exposed Sacrament ).

yet i was young and uncatechized… and my problems… well, it is a long story… but eventually, i began to gradually fall away from intimacy with Christ…

My life hit rock bottom years later… Sin had destroyed me … my sins and the even worse sins of the people i associated with (…if you want to put measurment on sin…which the RCC does… calling one kind Venial and the other Mortal… ). I found a cheap, free rosary and again, my whole life was changed…& eventually i found my way back to the Church… a little at a time…
but it was being in the Church that got me to the point where i could overcome sin… some of the sins i could never overcome before … i overcame totally when i went back to the RCC, something no non-Catholic Church had the power to do… or help me do…
The devil is far more powerful than we humans… and far more powerful than we give him credit for… No one would “make it” if it weren’t for the Catholic Church (and here i include all non-Catholic churches that don’t teach outright heresy concerning important beliefs…) The Catholic Church is the only “thing” that has power over the world, the flesh and the devil…

 

[distracted]

So when you say being spirit-filled doesn’t necessarily keep you in Christ, I don’t have any verses to contradict or agree with you (maybe there are some in there). In your example it looks like you were filled with the spirit once, and then when you were falling away you stopped being filled with the spirit.

please read Post #29

As for ‘the RCC gives people a grounding, a needed foundation’ I’m not a catholic, so not surprisingly, I disagree over whether a roman catholic church does that any more than any other church,

more than the JW’s ? MOre than the MOrmons?? hmm…

The Roman Catholic Church was the one instituted by Jesus Christ. If you know history at all… you know that there was ONE Christian Church in the world before M. Luther came along and changed all that (in the late year of 1521). Now there are at least 33,000 denominations, all teaching different things… I’m sure you can see that they can’t all be “right”… and so, which one is right? The real Church is going to be right on everything that is officially taught. Only the Catholic Church can claim this… the RCC. If a church, for example, teaches that birth control is OK and another teaches it is not, they can’t both be right. Test tube babies? same thing… abortion… etc… Only one Church teaches that all these things are wrong all the time… (except to save the actual, physical life of the mother, in tht last one)…

There is only One Church…

God is not the author of confusion. It is not God who got all those 33,000 churches going… It was man… All non-Catholic churches are man-made…

 

[Mel_Stones]

Distracted,

Congratulations!
You were saved, are being saved, and will be saved.
You understand what life is and know being ‘born again’ is not a one time thing.
Now just do your best not to hit rock bottom before starting again next time. As soon as you start slipping, reach for God’s hand. Better yet reach always.

Peace.

 

[distracted]

Distracted,

Congratulations!
You were saved, are being saved, and will be saved.
You understand what life is and know being ‘born again’ is not a one time thing.
Now just do your best not to hit rock bottom before starting again next time. As soon as you start slipping, reach for God’s hand. Better yet reach always.

Peace.

thanks for your caring words…

i will never hit the kind of rock bottom i hit years ago…

Thanks for reminding me of one more way in which the Church has SO helped me: I know that there are some sins i will never again commit…or even be tempted to commit. I mean I KNOW this… dont’ just think or believe or feel… but KNOW…

true, once you have overcome one sin or kind of sin the devil throws others up in your pathway… but oh well… I’ve accepted that i have to struggle … as everyone does…

God bless…

 

[PhiJ]

please read Post #29

How do I respond to that? I suppose first by saying that I have gone from feeling a little humbled to feeling a little excited by what God has done in you. He is awesome. Also, I’m not you, so maybe my points come from misunderstanding or reading into what you said. Oh, and it seems like most people here, I would distunguish between being born again and being filled with the spirit.

That said, I read that you were filled with the spirit, but neglected him (maybe slowly) and fell away. Then God brought you back to him slowly but it was when you became part of a church that God ‘stepped up’ the bringing you back. My theology absolutely fits with this. I will happily say something along the lines of “Christ died so that the earth would be filled with communities of believers who glorify him in the earth - the local churches.” So God working in a greater way through the local church than he would through you as an individual is both of no surprise to me, and rather exciting.

But I see the fact that it is a catholic church to be of less significance. I don’t know. Maybe you found you got more ‘stuck in’ when you joined a catholic church (so were built into the church better). Maybe the expression of worship was more in line with ‘your culture’, and so you experienced God more. Or maybe something else. And maybe other people could say the exact same thing about leaving the catholic church. Ultimately I’m not going to be convinced by an anecdote, but rather by argument from scripture and (to a lesser extent) church history. However, glory to God for your anecdote.

The devil is far more powerful than we humans… and far more powerful than we give him credit for…

Absolutely.

more than the JW’s ? MOre than the MOrmons?? hmm…

When I say church, I mean local church. It looks like you are reading ‘organisation containing churches’ or ‘movement’ or ‘denomination’ or something. However, you still have a valid point. Christ has an intention for every church. He intends his church to be radiant and beautiful. He intends his church to love him, to love others, and to know the truth. Churches like the local churches of the JW’s and Mormons are wrong on major theological issues, and this is an important deviation from God’s plan. I do not see your church as different because it is part of the Catholic Church (maybe I’m wrong on that point), but how much a church gives a grounding, a needed foundation is based upon how much she is following christ, and being how he intends. I’m sure you think that the Catholic churches generally do far better than the others on issues of truth. But hopefully you see what I was saying now.

 

[Zundrah]

some people believe this…

i don’t really know what i believe on this … but i do believe a person has to go through a serious change to get into Heaven…

comments?

My old methodist minister use to say this “people who do not convert to christ (born again) are going to hell”…

This is not true. Gods wants to purchase our souls, that is WHY we go to heaven; to be with him not to get it as a reward!

 

[distracted]

That said, I read that you were filled with the spirit, but neglected him (maybe slowly) and fell away.

i didn’t “neglect” Jesus… at least not intentionally. i was young, uncatechized, didn’t know waht i was doing… I had read the New Testament but did NOT know Jesus well from doing this. Yes, i knew Him better by doing that as opposed to NOT doing it… but there were passages (i see in hindsight) that i did not understand… so i skipped over them & focused on the ones that made me “happy”… Jesus healing people, Sermon on the Mount… etc… If i had known the WHOLE truth about Jesus (as catechized, devout Catholics do), i would NOT have fallen away from Jesus… If i had known about Purgatory, i would have stayed away from certain awful sins… that have awsome consequences… which i am still dealing with and some i will deal with probably for the rest of my life… but with Jesus, i can handle all this… (the Real Presence ).

Then God brought you back to him slowly but it was when you became part of a church that God ‘stepped up’ the bringing you back.

NOt A Church - THE Church… Only the Catholic Church could do what it did… I know you are not Ctholic and so don’t understand this fully… or at all… but i know as sure as i know my name that only the Catholic Church could bring me to the intimacy in Christ i know now (Rosary, Real Presence, Holy Mass, Confession).

“Christ died so that the earth would be filled with communities of believers who glorify him in the earth - the local churches.” So God working in a greater way through the local church than he would through you as an individual is both of no surprise to me, and rather exciting.

not sure i u/stand this… unless you refer to the priest i mentioned who had mentioned God’s u/conditional love? But i was nowhere near tht Church at the time… Ok… maybe i kinda get what you are saying now…

But I see the fact that it is a catholic church to be of less significance.

again, this is not so in my testimony. If i had known way back when what i know now… my life could have been so much … less sinful. My sins also affected others and so, their lives have been adversely affected also because of my lack of catechisis in the Faith. Even so i know that God is all-powerful and listens to my prayers for them…

Maybe you found you got more ‘stuck in’ when you joined a catholic church (so were built into the church better). Maybe the expression of worship was more in line with ‘your culture’, and so you experienced God more.

culture has nothing to do with it. The Catholic Church has the real, tangible Presence of Jesus Christ within its walls. It is the continuation of the Ark of the Covenant (only better??)… Yes, i would say Better because there is nothing like Jesus…

And maybe other people could say the exact same thing about leaving the catholic church.

people leave the RCC for probably only 2 basic reasons 1) they are ignorant of what the Church teaches (that was me years ago) and 2) they don’t want to be restricted by those teachings (that was never me, to speak of…

Ultimately I’m not going to be convinced by an anecdote, but rather by argument from scripture and (to a lesser extent) church history. However, glory to God for your anecdote.

i know that… because Protestants always go virtually soley by the Bible… They don’t know NOT to do that… until they study Ctholicism… Have you studied it? Actually, non-Catholics DO go by things not specifically in the Bible… For one hting, the Bible does not SAY to go entirely by the Bible… a Bible that wasn’t even written until 40 yrs after Jesus ascended… and some books are not as old as that even… All that God wants for us cannot be contained in a small book…

how much a church gives a grounding, a needed foundation is based upon how much she is following christ, and being how he intends. I’m sure you think that the Catholic churches generally do far better than the others on issues of truth…

there are no “the Catholic churches”… there is ONE Catholic Church with many Church buildings throughout the world. Some preists are not very orthodox… (not Catholic)… but that’s another issue… for another day …
and yes, the Catholic Church does “far better than theo thers on issues of truth” … I was a very weak, un-informed Christian before i came bck to the Church… I am still rather weak in many ways (have questions sometimes, etc) but… well, i don’t know what to say… You kind of have to BE Catholic to understand being Catholic…
God bless…

 

[distracted]

My old methodist minister use to say this “people who do not convert to christ (born again) are going to hell”…

This is not true. Gods wants to purchase our souls, that is WHY we go to heaven; to be with him not to get it as a reward!

i tend to agree with you…

but i do belive all persons will be “born-again” … as in “filled with the Holy Spriit” either in this life or the next one… before Heaven… and that they must go through this to enter Heaven…

only God really knows all the ‘details’… but that’s what i whole-heartedly beleive…

 

[brkn1]

i tend to agree with you…

but i do belive all persons will be “born-again” … as in “filled with the Holy Spriit” either in this life or the next one… before Heaven… and that they must go through this to enter Heaven…

only God really knows all the ‘details’… but that’s what i whole-heartedly beleive…

You have defined yourself as a “Universalist” by this post.
A Universalist believes all get to Heaven eventually.
You deny the Gospel of Jesus Christ by this belief.

 

[distracted]

You have defined yourself as a “Universalist” by this post.
A Universalist believes all get to Heaven eventually.
You deny the Gospel of Jesus Christ by this belief.

if you can get this out of what i said…

one of us needs to give up…

and it aint gonna be me…

 

[LutheranDK]

For us Catholics, the sacrament of Confirmation makes us followers of Jesus Christ.
As long as we remain in the church, and go to mass and confession, read our bible we are born-again and will go straight to heaven when we die.

Huh???
Then why do people here constantly make a point out of saying that no one can be CERTAIN that they’re saved?

 

[LutheranDK]

if you can get this out of what i said…

one of us needs to give up…

and it aint gonna be me…

With due respect:
It’s hard to understand what you said, differently…