Iglesia Ni Cristo interpretation of John 1:1

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The INC are especially hard to reason with (you can read Karl Keating’s account of his INC debate), since they especially stick with the logical fallacies they’ve been brought up with:

Catholic: But the Greek says yadda yadda.
INC: That’s your opinion.
Catholic: No, it isn’t! That’s basic Greek and that’s exactly what it says.
INC: That’s your opinion.

If anything any defense/apologetics posted here is not for the INC, but for Catholics, so that they can be strengthened in their faith, not to convert the INC.
Hi Porthos 11,

Listen. The moment I hear that Jesus was a great philosopher or great moral teacher - you’ve lost me.

This is the point I would address, not what greek words mean.

Funny. I have many bibles here to check when doing a lesson. Some have little words left out, some will be translated slightly differently. The important thing is that they all agree on the basics needed for salvation! And Jesus being God is of utmost importance.

I insist on John 1:1, but, just for fun, take a look at Luke 2:14. Try a couple of different bibles.

Okay, now here’s how Young’s Literal Translation has it from the greek:

“Glory in the highest to God, and upon earth peace, among men - good will”.

Yeah. Unless you’re a greek scholar, keep away from it!

Fran
 
I apologize in advance that this is a lengthy response. I also am not a Greek scholar nor am I very good with nouns, adjectives, and definitive articles. My response is based on my own very limited knowledge, a Greek Interlinear translation, and by what was posted by the OP. Take it for what it’s worth.
Part 1: If the Word is Jesus and was with God, it appears that Jesus is different from God because the verse says that the Logos was “with” God. How could Christ be that same God when it says that the Logos is “with” God? Who is this God who was “with” the Logos in the second clause? Obviously it is not Jesus Christ since they believe he is the Word. They could not be the same person because a person could not be “with” another person if he is the same person!
The Logos was “with” God (the Father) in the second clause, and the Logos is God (the Son) in the third clause. They are not the same person. They are two distinct persons in relation to each other, one is Father and the other is Son, yet they are one in substance, namely God. To demonstrate this Jesus says “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). And the Kingdom Hall Interlinear expresses it even more clearly in the literal translation which reads: “I and the Father one thing we are.” Not one person, but two persons who are “one thing”, or as Catholics would say; they are one substance or nature.

In addition Colossians 2:9 reads: “For in Him (Christ), the fullness of deity (literally Godship), dwells bodily.” And again in Hebrews 1:3 “He (Jesus) reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature…” or as the New World Translation puts it: “He is the reflection of his glory and the exact representation of his very being.” Again, two persons that bear fully the Godhead in glory and in their very nature or being (i.e. one substance, one true God).
After it has been established that the God being spoken of in John 1:1 is indeed the one true God (i.e. the Word was with the only one true God), it would be redundant to restate it again in the same sentence. The God being spoken of in both clauses is the one true God for there is no other. The difference is the persons being spoken of.
Part 3:2 Since the term God is a monadic noun (one-of-a-kind), it is always being introduced by the article in the Greek….Now when Greek does not use the definite article with a noun, that noun becomes much more like an adjective.
That may be true in many cases but definitely not all cases as can be seen from John 1:6 “there was a man sent from God” and from Romans 9:5 “God who is over all be blessed forever”. The definitive article does not precede “God” in the Greek, nor is “God” being used here as an adjective.

If the definitive article always refers to the One True God, than how does a non-Trinitarian explain Titus 2:13 which reads: “….the manifestation of the glory of the great God and savior of us, Christ Jesus.” The non-Trinitarian Kingdom Hall New World Translation adds another definitive article so that it does not read that Jesus Christ is BOTH the great God AND savior. Their translation is as follows: “…manifestation of the great God and **of the **Savior of us Jesus Christ.” Their footnote in the Kingdom Interlinear states this is added “to agree with the distinction between God and Jesus”. In other words, to force the translation to fit their theology that Jesus is not God.

While Jesus does indeed refer to the Father as the only true God (John 17:3), it must be understood that Jesus here is speaking in his humanity which is demonstrated by verse 5: “and now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory which I had with you before the world was made” (John 17:5). In his humanity he will die, but he will retain the glory that he had from the beginning with the Father as God. This also demonstrates that Jesus has the same glory with the Father in heaven (see also Rev 5:13). In this context, John 17:3 cannot be used as a proof text against Trinitarian belief, rather it upholds it.
 
Section 4: What does it mean that Christ was foreknown before the foundation of the world? To foreknow means to know something before it happens: to have knowledge or awareness that something is going to happen. So, Christ was in the mind of God, a divine idea or plan before the foundation of the world. Christ had no prior existence before he was born. When was God’s plan or idea of bringing His Son into the world materialized? When he was born of a woman (Galatians 4:4 and 1 Peter 1:20).
It is true that Christ (the messiah) was in the mind of God as a divine idea or plan before the foundation of the world. It is also true that Christ as a human man did not exist before he was conceived in Mary’s womb. But it does not follow that God the Son did not exist prior to becoming a human man when the Word became flesh. This makes Jesus’ words in John 17:5 meaningless when he says “glorify me with the glory which I had WITH you before the world was made.” Does that mean he would return to the Father as a glorified idea or concept? An idea or concept does not create, yet the Son created all things in heaven and on earth (Col. 1:16). Furthermore, in John 1:1 it says “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God…” If the Word (Logos) was merely a concept or idea in the beginning, and that at any point the Son would be created, than it should say “…and the Word was IN God”, but it does not.

How does a non-Trinitarian explain the obvious contradictions between Isaiah 43:10 “Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me” and John 1:1? Another difficult comparison is Isaiah 44:24 “I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me?” (NWT). Compared to Colossians 1:16 “for in him (the Son) all things were created in heaven and on earth…” The best explanation which does not cause a contradiction is the Trinity, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

I believe the Trinity is summed up the best in Psalm 33:6 “By the word (Son) of the Lord (Father) the heavens were made, and all their host by the breath of his mouth (Holy Spirit).” And also Matthew 28:19 “Baptizing them into the name (singular, one name) of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (three persons).
 
HELLO SPIDERWEB

For someone who’s not good with nouns, adjectives and def. articles, you put together quite a post!

I especially found the following helpful:

.the manifestation of the glory of the great God and savior of us, Christ Jesus.” The non-Trinitarian Kingdom Hall New World Translation adds another definitive article so that it does not read that Jesus Christ is BOTH the great God AND savior. Their translation is as follows: “…manifestation of the great God and of the Savior of us Jesus Christ.”

I get a lot of JW here and like to speak to them. Anything new I can learn is always appreciated.

Of course, it’s as you say - all these religions who don’t accept Jesus is God translate to suit their beliefs.

Re His being God, could I add these verses:

John 8:58
“Truly, Truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.”

This matches up to Exodus 3:14
“Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.”

God had told Moses to go tell the Pharaoh to let His people go. Moses asked, Who shall I say sent me? And God told him to say I AM sent me.

Jesus was teaching the Jews and some pharisees when they asked Him how it could be that He knew Abraham. And Jesus answered, Before Abraham was born, I AM.

I AM denotes timelessness. A being that existed forever, from before time. The Jews he said this too were so mad at Him because they understood what he meant, that they picked up stones to throw at Him.

See also Hebrews 13:8
“Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.”

The bible has too many verses such as the ones above. It’s always amazed me how anyone could say that Jesus was just a nice prophet.

Thanks for your post - I’m printing it out.

Fran
 
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