Ignorance amongst Laity

[SeekerJen]

That’s a remarkably offensive and ill-informed, sterotypical and ageist comment coming from someone 26. I would bet real money that involved Catholics in their 50’s and 60’s, who in fact grew up “during the time of Fulton Sheen,” are, on average, FAR better-informed and better grounded in the Faith, especially those of us blessed with the opportunity for schooling during the heyday of Catholic schools, before their near-dissolution and hijacking by modern religious teaching theories and the disappearance of the “good sisters.” If “ignorance” can be said to date from any era, I’d place it closer to the “era” of burlap banners, Kumbya, and what passes for CCD (meaning no offense to the hard-working volunteers who do the best they can in the thankless job of teaching the Faith with frequently awful CCD materials).

Actually, I don’t think the OP is too far off the mark. I’m 29, and I was “educated” in the faith by those in my parents’ generation- the baby boomers, those currently in their 50s and 60s- only to learn in my own research as an adult that much of what I had been taught (absolutely nothing beyond the extreme basics of the faith, and lots of things about birth control and IVF being fine, reconciliation being essentially optional, the Pope being wrong for not ordaining women, Mary not being a virgin after the birth of Christ, divorce and remarriage being a good thing in many cases) was wrong. If my generation is indeed ignorant in the faith, whose fault is that? Were not our parents and elders, most of whom came out of the boomer generation, supposed to teach us these things? (And yes, I did attend Catholic school at a generally well-regarded “orthodox” parish.)

I don’t mean to insult those who did their best to pass on the true faith, as you are the earthly reason for its continued growth and survival. But you are in the minority. Our generation by and large got the short end of the stick with regards to catechesis.

 

[RIPOSTE]

“If the Pope should become neglectful of his own salvation, and of that of other men, and so lost to all good that he draw down with himself innumerable people by heaps into hell, and plunge them with himself into eternal torments, yet no mortal may presume to reprehend him, forasmuch as he is judge of all, and is judged of no one.”

When you learn the above statement which was published by Gratian in 1140 and is part of the Decretum Gratiani nothing said against the papacy could be considered disrespectful. It is your ETERNAL SALVATION that those power-hungry criminals did like to play with.

The DECRETUM GRATIANI constituted CANON LAW until the Pentecost Sunday of 1917.

 

[Teelynn]

I am one of those “old stupid” folks that went from the Latin Mass to the Norvus Ordo in my teen years. When my daughter was in CCD, the class was told by a volunteer (God Bless Em) that when you die, nothing happens. When you die you just die. I had to troubleshoot on a few “catechism blunders” when she was growing up. Don’t think us old folks have the monopoly on ignorance.:nope: There’s plenty that’s spread out.

 

[brotherhrolf]

The OP was not discussing silence, but not even knowing anything about the Motu Propio or the Traditional Latin Mass.

Many of us get our information about such things from the internet which the older generations don’t have as a great a handle on (present company excluded, obviously ).

Sorry, I was talking about the silence of my generation and my parents who did not rebel against HMC when we abruptly transitioned from the TLM to the NO in a space of under two years.

The internet? Computers? I have my Mark One eyeballs and I know how to use a card catalogue in a library w/o access to the internet. It’s much easier today, without a doubt. I hand wrote my term papers and my thesis before I typed them out double spaced. Research, however, is research. And, I would submit to you, that internet research is nowhere near as thorough as Mark One eyeballs and a card catalogue.

Seekerjen: My sons are 26 and 23. They did not grow up in a modern parish. They grew up in a reverent NO parish which was/is the cathedral parish. DW and I taught both first communion and confirmation classes. But, I hear you…

Things were just so more orthodox in 1967. The church in which I grew up is not the church of today. There was a huge resentment against the transition from the TLM to the NO. None of us wanted to go against HMC.

Forty years later…my formation in the faith is still essentially pre-V II. I cannot and will not receive Communion in my hand - never have, never will. My conscience was formed pre -V II - I can’t get to confession today with the same frequency as I could in the late 60s.

HMC has changed and it bears only slight resemblance to the Church in which I was raised. I don’t fault my brothers and sisters who yearn for what we grew up in.

 

[SeekerJen]

Seekerjen: My sons are 26 and 23. They did not grow up in a modern parish. They grew up in a reverent NO parish which was/is the cathedral parish. DW and I taught both first communion and confirmation classes. But, I hear you…

Your sons were lucky. The majority of us received very little in the way of useful or accurate catechesis. I was raised in what is considered to be a very orthodox parish, and indeed, the Masses appear to be quite low on abuses. I hope things in the parish school have improved in the past 15 years.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I graduated from a Catholic high school in 1969. There was a tidal shift in 1970 such that my brother, who graduated from the very same Catholic high school in 1973, did not get the same formation in faith that I got. He converted to the Baptist church and was re-baptized and is now a member of a non-denominational church. His ignorance of the Catholic faith is profound. I often wonder if he slept through Religion classes. I’m not an apologist by any stretch of the immagination but he and I don’t discuss religion anymore. My sister and I wonder if it just him or poor catechesis.

 

[Cat]

Our Bishop, Thomas Doran of the Diocese of Rockford, says that it is incorrect to refer to the “Tridentine” Mass. That could be why some people have never heard of it.

We have had traditional Latin masses daily and several times on Sunday in our city since the mid-1980s. These masses are not crowded. They don’t attract all the people who left the Catholic Church after Vatican II. They don’t attract all the young people.

I think those of you who believe a return to the Latin Mass will make the Catholic Church all better again are kidding yourselves. It hasn’t happened in our city.

I am glad that we have the choice in our city and that our Bishop encourages not only the TLM, but also LifeTeen. I am very blessed.

 

[jimmy]

I don’t think it is possible to go back to the old mass. With the change in the mass there has been a change in tradition. They essentially started a new tradition. It was one thing to go from the more distant to a more familiar liturgy but to go in the opposite direction would completely destroy the Catholic Church. The change to the new liturgy after VII hurt the Church because it was a change of the tradition and the new liturgy in general has been horrible. A change back would hurt the Church because no one would be able to associate themselves with the liturgy. They will have no idea what is going on so they will leave. The only hope for a correction of the western liturgy is a slow correction that would slowly make the new liturgy more similar to the old.

 

[brotherhrolf]

No one is asking you to go back to the old Mass. I grew up with the TLM. I was an altar boy. I have attended two, count them two, Latin Masses from 1970 to the present. I attend a reverent NO cathedral parish. We sing a whole bunch of Latin. I would love to put that Latin in context. Our parish has grown from 200 folks in 1983 to close to 2,000 today. If you don’t think there is a desire for more reverence and a return to our roots, think again.

 

[mary_bobo]

Unlikely, since one of the more popular moral questions pre-Vatican 2 was “how Late can I come to Mass and how early can I leave and still fufill my obligation?”

I hope you are not attempting to speak for anyone but yourself. No one I know would ask a question like that. I see far no irreverance at Mass with the NO than I ever did with the TLM.

 

[Hesychios]

…one of the more popular moral questions pre-Vatican 2 was “how Late can I come to Mass and how early can I leave and still fufill my obligation?”

An excellent observation…and so true!

I hope you are not attempting to speak for anyone but yourself.

Why?
*
Michael*

 

[RUINATION_IPA]

Unlikely, since one of the more popular moral questions pre-Vatican 2 was “how Late can I come to Mass and how early can I leave and still fufill my obligation?”

This at least shows people then had a moral foundation and would at least ask such a question. In our current spineless situation they don’t bother asking they just don’t show.

I don’t think it is possible to go back to the old mass. With the change in the mass there has been a change in tradition. They essentially started a new tradition. It was one thing to go from the more distant to a more familiar liturgy but to go in the opposite direction would completely destroy the Catholic Church. The change to the new liturgy after VII hurt the Church because it was a change of the tradition and the new liturgy in general has been horrible. A change back would hurt the Church because no one would be able to associate themselves with the liturgy. They will have no idea what is going on so they will leave. The only hope for a correction of the western liturgy is a slow correction that would slowly make the new liturgy more similar to the old.

The pendelum has swung as far left as it can go. Liberal Catholics are contracepting; orthodox Catholics are oh so fruitful. The liberal religous orders are greying and withering while the orthodox Catholic orders can’t grow fast enough to accommodate the new recruits. Go to any Latin Mass and it’s so utterly astounding that the grey haired person is actually the minority unlike my Novus Ordo Parish.

Springtime is here, brother!

 

[jimmy]

This at least shows people then had a moral foundation and would at least ask such a question. In our current spineless situation they don’t bother asking they just don’t show.

The pendelum has swung as far left as it can go. Liberal Catholics are contracepting; orthodox Catholics are oh so fruitful. The liberal religous orders are greying and withering while the orthodox Catholic orders can’t grow fast enough to accommodate the new recruits. Go to any Latin Mass and it’s so utterly astounding that the grey haired person is actually the minority unlike my Novus Ordo Parish.

Springtime is here, brother!

I hope you are right.

 

[otjm]

Sorry, I beg to disagree. Yes, I did memorize the questions in the Baltimore Catechism - in Catholic grade school But in eigth grade I went to my Catholic high school where I was blessed to have been taught by the Brothers of the Sacred Heart during, as an earlier poster put it, the heyday of Catholic schools. With religion classes five days a week for five years, I got a very good formation in the faith. We were exposed to Augustine, Aquinas, the history of HMC, and Scripture to name but a few.

My generation should not be painted with such a broad brush. The “seed” as Our Lord tells it, fell then, as it does now, on different soil. Were there folks who slept through it all - yes.

On the other hand, my Catholic high school has a strong alumni association. Thirty-eight years later my classmates are still involved in HMC all across the spectrum. A dear friend of mine still plays guitar for his parish just as I sing Gregorian chant and Latin motets for mine. I don’t think you would have seen this level of activity had the Brothers not done their job in fertilizing the seed which was planted.

The issue I addressed was reading, not action. Have you ever asked all those active alumni what the last religious book was that they read, and when? I went to a Jesuit high school and our alumni are active too. And darn few have been reading anything.

In any event, my comment had to do with people pre-Vatican 2 and what they did then, not what they are doing now (which, I say again, is not a whole lot in terms of reading).

 

[otjm]

I hope you are not attempting to speak for anyone but yourself. No one I know would ask a question like that. I see far no irreverance at Mass with the NO than I ever did with the TLM.

I am not attempting to speak for others; I am repeating the question I ahve heard repeately from others. And as far is lack of reverance, I will agree that the OF has seen far more than anyone ever anticipated. But I have seen my fair share of lack of reverance in the OF, starting when I served Mass in the 6th grade and continuing into when I was in college, as we had the same priest in the parish and he had the same problem - alcohol - all that time.

I do not say that the EF has the opportunity for the irreverance now that it did then, for no other reason than that then that was all we had and irreverance came not because of the form of the Mass but because of the lack of reverance of the priest. The same applies to the OF; you will find reverance in the OF when and where you find reverance in the priest.

 

[otjm]

This at least shows people then had a moral foundation and would at least ask such a question. In our current spineless situation they don’t bother asking they just don’t show.

I agree that since then, morlaity went into the toilet and someone flushed. However, please do not wax eloquent about morality before that; the moral attitude was all too oftend described as minimalistic and legalistic - what is the absolute minimum I have to do and be “ok”; and “how far can I go before I commit a serious sin” are not attitudes that bespeak a high moral order.

The pendelum has swung as far left as it can go. Liberal Catholics are contracepting; orthodox Catholics are oh so fruitful. The liberal religous orders are greying and withering while the orthodox Catholic orders can’t grow fast enough to accommodate the new recruits. Go to any Latin Mass and it’s so utterly astounding that the grey haired person is actually the minority unlike my Novus Ordo Parish.

Springtime is here, brother!

I hate to let you in on a little secret; about 70 to 80% of Catholics are contracepting and there is no way you can paint all of them as liberal. They were not taught that it is intrinsicly wrong; they were taught to “follow their conscience”; and many of them are trying to do that. They were not taught the second corollary, that one has to constantly strive to conform one’s conscience to the Church. To paint them all as liberal is to define liberal as one who contracepts. I do not accept that definition.

It may well be that you have a lot of Latin Masses where you are; we have one in the Portland area, and it is not getting flooded.

 

[rwoehmke]

Since we are talking Mass according to the Missal of John XXIII ia it really correct to call it "The Tridentine " Mass? By the time of John XXIII the Mass of Pius V had already undergone a number of revisions, slight as they might have been. I was around for quite a while before Vatican II, served Mass from 3rd Grade through College. I graduated before Vatican II and I cannot recall ever hearing it called the Tridentine Mass until fairly recently. It was just Mass before and still just Mass afterwward for most people.

As far as Catholics reading Catholic Books, my Mother had only a Bible, Extension Magazine, Our Sunday Visitor ( 5 cents after Mass just outside the Church Door) and a few pamphlets from the rack in Church. No books. At graduation from College I had a book on Intro to St. Thomas, a Sunday Missal, A text on the Virtues and Moral Theology, some class notes on Canon Law of Marriage and Sacred Scripture ( a class in which we never cracked a Bible.) and that was pretty much it till Vatican II stirred up what I probably saw as a “sleeping Church.” Now I have four or five four foot bookshelves crammed with lots of stuff and our Church has maybe half again as many in its library. Some people are reading, but most working Mothers and Fathers don’t really have the time and maybe not the inclination. I doubt if any of my six children have even a half dozen Church related books. They range in age from 32 to 46 and have some interest, but it doesn’t burn in their soul like mine seems to.

 

[Exalt]

Correct me people is this the same church that we talk about in these forums or is it a different one?

This is a tad bit off topic, but I think it’s worth nothing that…

The Church as it is represented on this forum is vastly different from many other representations as they exist across the country, and the world as a whole. Liberal Catholics, conservatives ones, those who like TLM, and those that like Life Teen masses, or spanish masses, or - heck - polka masses, those that emphasize this doctrine or that, those that disagree on this doctrine or that, etc.

The Church represented on this forum is as conservative and traditional as you can possibly get. The Church in the real world is probably a bit more balanced, I’d say.

 

[Like]

Since we are talking Mass according to the Missal of John XXIII ia it really correct to call it "The Tridentine " Mass? By the time of John XXIII the Mass of Pius V had already undergone a number of revisions, slight as they might have been. I was around for quite a while before Vatican II, served Mass from 3rd Grade through College. **I graduated before Vatican II and I cannot recall ever hearing it called the Tridentine Mass until fairly recently. It was just Mass before and still just Mass afterwward for most people.

As far as Catholics reading Catholic Books, my Mother had only a Bible, Extension Magazine, Our Sunday Visitor ( 5 cents after Mass just outside the Church Door) and a few pamphlets from the rack in Church. No books. ** At graduation from College I had a book on Intro to St. Thomas, a Sunday Missal, A text on the Virtues and Moral Theology, some class notes on Canon Law of Marriage and Sacred Scripture ( a class in which we never cracked a Bible.) and that was pretty much it till Vatican II stirred up what I probably saw as a “sleeping Church.” Now I have four or five four foot bookshelves crammed with lots of stuff and our Church has maybe half again as many in its library. Some people are reading, but most working Mothers and Fathers don’t really have the time and maybe not the inclination. I doubt if any of my six children have even a half dozen Church related books. They range in age from 32 to 46 and have some interest, but it doesn’t burn in their soul like mine seems to.

What I bolded of your post is pretty much what I remember and would have stated, never went to college though. But, did get some college credits in late 60’s for a police academy in TX.
rwoehmke, Thanks for the memories!

 

[BobP123]

The Church represented on this forum is as conservative and traditional as you can possibly get. The Church in the real world is probably a bit more balanced, I’d say.

In one sense you are right. Those that frequent CA are probably a little more concerned about their faith, but that should be obvious.

If by “more balanced,” you mean those that don’t bother to attend any liturgy, stay away from the sacraments, wouldn’t give a dime to their priests and bishops, etc. should count as members of the Church, then I would agree with you.