Ignorance?

[Sig]

the gate to heaven is certainly narrow, thank God for the Church to show us the way, and may God grant us the humility to accept what is true and not invent what we wish out of our own imaginations

And according to Hebrews 6:6, anyone who does that is lost forever. God doesn’t grant them repentance. Kinda makes one feel sorry for those who leave your church, and for reverts whose “repentance” isn’t genuine, according to that passage.

 

[steve_b]

It is God who brings the dead to life (Eph 2:1-5; 1 Cor 1:30), why do you worry about such trivial things?

With God, all things are possible Jesus Christ, (Mt 19:23-26).

Do you believe then in universal salvation of everyone?

 

[steve_b]

Sure it does. If God is able to bring one nation against another nation (Is 10:5-15), then God is certainly able to bring missionaries to those He intends to save.

It is God who brings the dead to life (Eph 2:1-5; 1 Cor 1:30; Mt 19:23-26), why do you carry on so about such trivial things?

You’re not answering the question

 

[Sig]

Do you believe then in universal salvation of everyone?

From where are you getting that idea?

And it seems you are ignoring other things I’ve said and asked of you in my last post, are you?

 

[steve_b]

From where are you getting that idea?

look at the scriptures you’re quoting. What do they have to do with the topic OR the question I asked you?
S:

And it seems you are ignoring other things I’ve said and asked of you in my last post, are you?

you’re throwing bible passages around that don’t follow the topic or the questions being asked

For example.

You said
“God is incapable of getting the Gospel to those He has chosen to save. Who would believe such a thing about the sovereign God of creation?”

I said
That’s not the definition of, or does it address invincible ignorance of an individual

you said
Sure it does. If God is able to bring one nation against another nation (Is 10:5-15), then God is certainly able to bring missionaries to those He intends to save.

to which bottomline, I’m thinking to myself

huh

You don’t believe invincible ignorance exists. Therefore you have to address the issue of someone who is mentally challenged, who can’t understand.

 

[Sig]

look at the scriptures you’re quoting. What do they have to do with the topic OR the question I asked you?

What about them?

you’re throwing bible passages around that don’t follow the topic or the questions being asked

For example.

You said
“God is incapable of getting the Gospel to those He has chosen to save. Who would believe such a thing about the sovereign God of creation?”

I said
That’s not the definition of, or does it address invincible ignorance of an individual

you said
Sure it does. If God is able to bring one nation against another nation (Is 10:5-15), then God is certainly able to bring missionaries to those He intends to save.

to which bottomline, I’m thinking to myself

huh

What?

You don’t believe invincible ignorance exists. Therefore you have to address the issue of someone who is mentally challenged, who can’t understand.

I don’t have to address anything, friend, but I have addressed the issue of the mentally challenged.

The omnipotent creator of the universe is able to bring nation against nation (Is 10:5ff), and He is able to raise the dead to life through the Gospel (Eph 2:5ff), why do think He is not able to bring His “mentally challenged creatures” to an understanding of the Gospel, should He so desire.

What’s your difficulty? Hmmmm?

 

[bmullins]

You don’t believe invincible ignorance exists. Therefore you have to address the issue of someone who is mentally challenged, who can’t understand.

… really? God is limited by our own capabilities? He cannot teach his own creation what they need to know to accept him? You and I might not be able to teach some people, but God can through us.

 

[steve_b]

What about them?

They don’t fit
S:

What?

I have addressed the issue of the mentally challenged.

I disagree.
S:

The omnipotent creator of the universe is able to bring nation against nation (Is 10:5ff), and He is able to raise the dead to life through the Gospel (Eph 2:5ff), why do think He is not able to bring His “mentally challenged creatures” to an understanding of the Gospel, should He so desire.

I gave the link to the teaching on ignorance in post #5.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8720927&postcount=5

Here is the 1st post starting the topic
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8714502&postcount=1

I think you’re missing the point
S:

What’s your difficulty? Hmmmm?

I have no difficulty. You have a difficulty accepting that there are degrees of ignorance, one being invincible ignorance.

 

[steve_b]

… really? God is limited by our own capabilities?

He cannot teach his own creation what they need to know to accept him? You and I might not be able to teach some people, but God can through us.

This is NOT about God’s capabilities. Please read the 1st post starting this thread.

 

[frankpetrucci83]

Your argument is a “straw man,” Frank.

strawman against who? I wasn’t even talking to you, i was informing the person who I WAS talking to, that trying to refute someone who is ignorant or malicious is a waste of time

 

[Sig]

They don’t fit

They do fit.

I disagree.

I disagree with your disagreement.

I gave the link to the teaching on ignorance in post #5.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8720927&postcount=5

Here is the 1st post starting the topic
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8714502&postcount=1

I pointed out the flaw in “invincible ignorance.”

I think you’re missing the point

I think you are.

I have no difficulty.

I think you do have difficulty.

You have a difficulty accepting that there are degrees of ignorance, one being invincible ignorance.

You have difficulty accepting the omnipotence of God.

Hmmmm…

 

[Sig]

strawman against who? I wasn’t even talking to you, i was informing the person who I WAS talking to, that trying to refute someone who is ignorant or malicious is a waste of time

And I was informing you about the straw man you were presenting that I am ignorant, or malicious, and that I disagree with a Catholic doctrine simply because it’s a Catholic doctrine.

 

[steve_b]

I pointed out the flaw in “invincible ignorance.”

here perhaps? forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8721051&postcount=6
When you say “The notion underlying the idea ( invincible ignorance) is that God is incapable of getting the Gospel to those He has chosen to save”, You are demonstrating that you don’t understand the question or the topic…presented by the original poster. Invincible ignorance is not about God or His capabilities, it is about an individual’s level of knowledge, and what they are capable of understanding or not understanding, ergo what they are culpable for, or potentially innocent of.

Capiche?

 

[Sig]

here perhaps? forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8721051&postcount=6
When you say “The notion underlying the idea ( invincible ignorance) is that God is incapable of getting the Gospel to those He has chosen to save”, You are demonstrating that you don’t understand the question or the topic…presented by the original poster. Invincible ignorance is not about God or His capabilitis, it is about an individual’s level of knowledge, and what they are capable of understanding or not understanding, ergo what they are culpable for, or potentially innocent of.

Capiche?

Yes I do “capiche.” The underlying notion of invincible ignorance is flawed. God is the savior, capable of saving anyone He desires to save.

Capiche?

Let me help you further: God causes one to be born again 1 Pet 1:3.

Capiche that?

 

[frankpetrucci83]

And I was informing you about the straw man you were presenting that I am ignorant, or malicious, and that I disagree with a Catholic doctrine simply because it’s a Catholic doctrine.

that is not the definition of a strawman…an example of a strawman is if I claimed you said something that you didn’t say and then went on to refute it.

In reality, I am not responding directly to anything you said but coming up with my own theory or premise. It is something completely new. It should be interesting to address even for Catholics. Here is the premise in bold in case you have not followed the logic.

**Catholic Doctrine is infallible
A Protestant is in error because he disagrees with Catholic Doctrine
Catholic Doctrine infallibly defines “ignorance”
If the Catholic Doctrine is indeed infallible then there are only two possible options for you

1. You are ignorant and are not responsible for your heresy
2. Your heresy is done out of maliciousness**

I would like Catholics to consider that also, this is the simple truth of the matter, and not a straw man argument

 

[Sig]

that is not the definition of a strawman…an example of a strawman is if I claimed you said something that you didn’t say and then went on to refute it.

In reality, I am not responding directly to anything you said but coming up with my own theory or premise.

Despite your repeated denials, your statements are straw men.

 

[Sig]

Catholic Doctrine is infallible

Are you infallible?

 

[Sig]

A Protestant is in error because he disagrees with Catholic Doctrine

Do you know this because you are infallible? Or, are you fallible?

 

[steve_b]

Yes I do “capiche.” The underlying notion of invincible ignorance is flawed. God is the savior, capable of saving anyone He desires to save.

Capiche?

Let me help you further: God causes one to be born again 1 Pet 1:3.

Capiche that?

You really don’t understand the subject regardless of numerous explanations.

 

[Sig]

You really don’t understand the subject regardless of numerous explanations.

Oh, but I do. However, I don’t expect you to admit that I do.