Ignoring protestant material etc

[HannahLisa]

Conversion to errant protestantism? see analysis of the words of the song in post above.

with respect, HL, whatever the author’s intention, the words DO express a doctrine, the doctrine upon which the Reformation was based, a new doctrine which contradicts both scripture itself and all Christian teaching for the first 1,500 years of Christianity.

since there is no true experience of grace other than the Catholic understanding of that experience, his expression is mistaken.
Respectfully, God can’t be praised with falsehood, HL, because He is Truth. And when people relate very well to the song, they relate less well to Him who is Truth.

Are you saying God does not allow ANY grace to work through ANY other denomination besides the Catholic Church?

Regardless of the “errancy” of Protestantism, this slave trader’s conversion definitely got him on a better track than he was before, through something which I believe was God’s grace. Praise God for that! Would it be better for this man if he had not been converted at all? There is some truth in Protestant denominations --certainly more truth than John Newton had access to before his conversion.

Also, aside from that one line which you have so much of an objection to, I see nothing anti-Catholic in this hymn – though this may be due to my lack of knowledge of Catholic doctrine. Is it not God’s grace which enables us to be saved in the first place? Is it not God’s grace which accompanies us throughout our lives if we allow it to? If not, please explain the Catholic view of grace more fully – I really do want to understand this viewpoint!

 

[Teflon93]

Also, aside from that one line which you have so much of an objection to, I see nothing anti-Catholic in this hymn – though this may be due to my lack of knowledge of Catholic doctrine. Is it not God’s grace which enables us to be saved in the first place? Is it not God’s grace which accompanies us throughout our lives if we allow it to? If not, please explain the Catholic view of grace more fully – I really do want to understand this viewpoint!

There have been many threads on Catholic teaching regarding grace and salvation. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is also available online. You can find definitive answers to these off-topic questions there.

The short answer to why “Amazing Grace” is a Protestant hymn is that it displays a Protestant understanding of grace and salvation. Catholics do not believe that salvation occurs instantaneously, but rather through justifying grace (baptism removing original sin) and sanctifying grace (the gradual perfection of the spirit, in this world and in purgatory).

Catholics do not believe everyone must have a Pauline “thunderbolt” conversion to be saved.

 

[Jennifer123]

As for resources coming from the non-Catholic world, I would be the last person on earth to dismiss something like Jim Dobson’s Focus on the Family. I WISH we Catholics had something as good. Dobson’s group has worked strongly and well with Fr. Frank Pavone on pro-life matters. We do not need to dismiss these groups. We, as Christians, have enough problems in COMMON with the secularized culture that we should work together under the Name rather than dismissing one another.

Just as an aside, I too wish we could have as many resources as Protestants do in these matters. I subscribed to the Focus newsletter, which they offered completely free of charge, but was disheartened to see a letter dedicated to “family planning” which advocated contraception and IVF. Obviously incompatible to Catholic teaching and the fullness of Truth. So I think the OP has a point.

My own two cents is that while indeed Truth can be found among our Protestant bretheren, and it would be foolish IMHO to ignore the help our brothers and sisters can offer, we as Catholics MUST have a secure knowledge of our own faith before we engage in the Protestant culture, lest we lead ourselves away from the FULLNESS of Truth.

 

[HannahLisa]

There have been many threads on Catholic teaching regarding grace and salvation. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is also available online. You can find definitive answers to these off-topic questions there.

The short answer to why “Amazing Grace” is a Protestant hymn is that it displays a Protestant understanding of grace and salvation. Catholics do not believe that salvation occurs instantaneously, but rather through justifying grace (baptism removing original sin) and sanctifying grace (the gradual perfection of the spirit, in this world and in purgatory).

Catholics do not believe everyone must have a Pauline “thunderbolt” conversion to be saved.

I do not think “Amazing Grace” is trying to imply that salvation occurs instantaneously on first believing. Indeed, the line “how precious did that grace appear / the hour I first believed” could be understood to mean that the author truly appreciated God’s grace, whether he had “received” it or not – though, considering that he had converted, I think he had already received some form of God’s grace in that he was able to convert. The hymn DOES NOT state that this “amazing grace” was received the hour he first believed, only that it seemed precious at that point. What is un-Catholic about that?

I do not think the hymn is trying to advocate that everyone must have a “Pauline ‘thunderbolt’ conversion” to be saved. Indeed, looking at the lyrics I see very little which even advocates that. It is a hymn which rejoices in the fact that God gives us grace to see us through life’s trials. I think all denominations can agree that God does, indeed, do that.

 

[belgianwaffles9]

I do not think “Amazing Grace” is trying to imply that salvation occurs instantaneously on first believing. Indeed, the line “how precious did that grace appear / the hour I first believed” could be understood to mean that the author truly appreciated God’s grace, whether he had “received” it or not – though, considering that he had converted, I think he had already received some form of God’s grace in that he was able to convert. The hymn DOES NOT state that this “amazing grace” was received the hour he first believed, only that it seemed precious at that point. What is un-Catholic about that?

I do not think the hymn is trying to advocate that everyone must have a “Pauline ‘thunderbolt’ conversion” to be saved. Indeed, looking at the lyrics I see very little which even advocates that. It is a hymn which rejoices in the fact that God gives us grace to see us through life’s trials. I think all denominations can agree that God does, indeed, do that.

Well, that IS what most protestants believe… that you receive saving grace the instant you “accept Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour yadda yadda yadda.” The lyrics are pretty clearly protestant.

 

[HannahLisa]

Well, that IS what most protestants believe… that you receive saving grace the instant you “accept Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour yadda yadda yadda.” The lyrics are pretty clearly protestant.

That is definitely what most Protestants believe. I don’t see where it states that in the hymn, though.

 

[Cat]

I think it depends on the subject. A Protestant can be an “expert” on something secular, and it would be foolish not to avail yourself of their expertise.

Would you refuse to let your kids take piano lessons if the teacher was Protestant? Even if he/she is considered the best piano teacher in town?

How about sports? Do you refuse to put your kids on sports teams coached by Protestants?

Is your doctor a Protestant? Your boss? Your car mechanic? Your florist? Your jeweler? Your accountant?

I raised my kids according to Dr. James Dobson, and I am 100% pleased with the results. Both girls turned out great. I used so many of his child-rearing principles (positive reinforcment, wilful defiance vs. childish irresponsbility, etc.), and I would highly recommend that others read his books. I see a lot of Catholic families that would benefit from a good dose of “Dobson.”

My husband and I have patterned our marriage after a lot of Dobson’s material. (I’ve read everything he’s written.) This summer will be 29 years for us and we are happier and more in love than ever.

I agree that if you are seeking information from a Protestant, you will have to be alert for things that are not appropriate for Catholics to practice. But just because Dobson is a birth-control advocate doesn’t mean that we have to throw out all his other excellent advice.

 

[IsaacSheen]

Well, this was interesting to come home to. I didn’t actually post this topic in this forum, it was supposed to be in the tradational forum, so I wouldn’t have to nitpick everything I said to avoid misunderstanding. That being the case…it was moved and the misunderstanding followed. What can I do.

I’ll respond to some of the responses.

First off, you’ll notice I say that I realize my attitude probably needs refining. Many of you missed this part and I think it was key.

One person said I sound like I feel superior to protestants. I don’t worry about my soul in relation to anyone else, so that isn’t the case. I do however feel Catholocism is superior to any form of protestantism or any other belief system. If you don’t, why are you Catholic?

Another point made a couple of times is that Protestants share a lot of Truth with us, and as Christ is Truth, I shouldn’t be opposed to that. First, they get their knowledge of the Truth from the Catholic Church (the bride of Christ…who is Truth). Second, if we have the fullness, why would I go to Protestants for the Truth.

Some people bring up that Catholic’s don’t have the resources that Protestants do. Although I very much disagree with this statement, if you feel that way, instead of going to Protestants for it, why not form the same type of knowledge from a Catholic perspective. Christopher West comes to mind.

As for me ignoring anything protestant. I should clarify that I meant things that were intended or laced with protestant false teachings. Bach is an amazing composer and you can listen to almost all of his work without knowing he was Lutheran.

Unfortunately, I really wanted to avoid arguements in this thread, which is why it was posted in the traditional forum. I hope no feelings were hurt!

 

[Teflon93]

As for me ignoring anything protestant. I should clarify that I meant things that were intended or laced with protestant false teachings. Bach is an amazing composer and you can listen to almost all of his work without knowing he was Lutheran.

Unfortunately, I really wanted to avoid arguements in this thread, which is why it was posted in the traditional forum. I hope no feelings were hurt!

I didn’t mean to imply that you were advocating that we ignore Protestant material of a non-theological nature; I referred to Bach and Rembrandt and Lewis simply to make the point that just because Catholics don’t adore Protestant theology doesn’t mean we view every endeavor undertaken by Protestants to be somehow substandard to similar Catholic efforts.

It should be noted that I also make a distinction between C.S. Lewis, an apologist, and Pope Benedict XVI, a theologian. I find some Protestant apologists to have merit, particularly regarding the defense of Christianity against secularism; I simply don’t look to them for knowledge of God or our interactions with Him. The Bride of Christ takes care of the latter, thank you very much.

 

[IsaacSheen]

It should be noted that I also make a distinction between C.S. Lewis, an apologist, and Pope Benedict XVI, a theologian. I find some Protestant apologists to have merit, particularly regarding the defense of Christianity against secularism; I simply don’t look to them for knowledge of God or our interactions with Him. The Bride of Christ takes care of the latter, thank you very much.

Yeah, that is a good approach. I definitely agree with you on this point. I appreciate someone like CS Lewis and his ability to defend Christ against non-Christian thinking. You also make a great distinction between your view of say, the pope vs a protestant apologist. Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut!

 

[St_Aloysius]

We sing Protestant hymns for the same reason they sing Catholic ones (Christmas time almost solely, granted though).

In fact, at my old Baptist church, our youth group liked to sing “Your Grace is Enough,” none of us aware that a Catholic artist composed and performed the song (we knew it because Chris Tomlin had a liking for it).

I think it’s awesome we can sing about the same thing at times. It reminds me of what Father always says: “Our similarities will always outnumber our differences.”

Boycotting everything Protestant (just for its being Protestant) is both stupid and impossible, to be frank. We should respect the religious traditions of our brothers and sisters in other churches and learn from their example, rather than simply labling them all “heretics” and leaving it at that.

Pax

 

[mercygate]

Just as an aside, I too wish we could have as many resources as Protestants do in these matters. I subscribed to the Focus newsletter, which they offered completely free of charge, but was disheartened to see a letter dedicated to “family planning” which advocated contraception and IVF. Obviously incompatible to Catholic teaching and the fullness of Truth. So I think the OP has a point.

My own two cents is that while indeed Truth can be found among our Protestant bretheren, and it would be foolish IMHO to ignore the help our brothers and sisters can offer, we as Catholics MUST have a secure knowledge of our own faith before we engage in the Protestant culture, lest we lead ourselves away from the FULLNESS of Truth.

A couple of years ago – I think it was here on the Forums, someone mentioned that his mother wanted to give $100 to Focus on the Family if they would do a feature on NFP, but they rejected the offer because there is no prohibition of contraception in the Bible.

 

[IsaacSheen]

Boycotting everything Protestant (just for its being Protestant) is both stupid and impossible, to be frank. We should respect the religious traditions of our brothers and sisters in other churches and learn from their example, rather than simply labling them all “heretics” and leaving it at that.

Pax

Again, I never said any of this. You should’ve read what I had written before responding in such fashion.

 

[lak611]

I’ll take “Holy, Holy, Holy” over “All Are Welcome” any day!

 

[belgianwaffles9]

I’ll take “Holy, Holy, Holy” over “All Are Welcome” any day!

I love “Holy, Holy, Holy”

I suggest you seek out the version of that song done by Sufjan Stevens for one of his christmas albums

If you go to www.seeqpod.com and type in “holy sufjan stevens” in the search box, it should be the first to come up. Its an amazing version. Someday I’d like to see Sufjan Stevens do a Mass setting.

 

[toaslan]

The hymn DOES NOT state that this “amazing grace” was received the hour he first believed, only that it seemed precious at that point. What is un-Catholic about that?

(HL, I was looking at the “HOUR” of belief–the phrase implies a moment, the thunderbolt thing. In actuality Christian “belief” is divine adoption lived out–from before the age of being able to rationally believe for baptized babies–until death. Please see post #16 for expanded explanation)

Blessings.