Illegal downloading and a possible solution

[nesguy]

For the past decade, I’ve had a mild obsession with foreign media, namely out of Japan. I’ve enjoyed many movies, TV shows, animations (anime), and comics (manga), through both traditional outlets in the US and various methods on the internet. As I’ve aged from a fanboy teenager to a more mature adult in ten years, I have questioned the legality and my stance on acquiring entertainment from another country.

My old argument was always, “If it’s not licensed in this country, it’s ok to download it.” I figured that with no legal alternative, nobody was getting hurt if I simply nabbed something online. Nowadays, with a greater appreciation for the intricacies of copyright law, the Berne Convention, and a healthy dose spiritual perspective, I realize that there’s no need to really stray outside the legally available option in my country. I’ll never get around to watching/reading all that’s already available here, and I need to not be so focused on material things at the expense of my spiritual well-being. Basically, I’ve come to understand that I have no basic human right to be entertained, and just because something exists to entertain some people, doesn’t give me a unilateral right to view it despite the law.

For the time being, I have thus stopped my illegal downloading of foreign shows and movies. However, I have locally a wonderful import bookshop where I can regularly (and cost-effectively) pick up lots of imported comics from Japan. These are still written in Japanese, and many of them have no English equivalent available through licensed channels. So the question of legality started working through my brain once again. I’ve come to wonder at the moral implications of downloading an unofficial, fan-translated version of something I have already purchased at this local shop. This seems to me to present no moral problem, though technically I’m still violating copyright law by obtaining a digital copy of the work in question that’s been translated for me, and that’s where my moral flag starts going up again.

I know that there’s pretty much no chance of ever getting in trouble for such an action as I am now only reading online what I already own a copy of, but I do still wonder at the morality of it all. The artist/company have gotten their money from me, but at the same time, I’m still encouraging the pirates on the internet by giving them page-views and using their services that I doubt 99.99% of other readers own works for. I’ve begun to slowly learn the language, in the hope that some day in the next few years I won’t need to rely on such underhanded methods to enjoy these stories, but I don’t really want to spend the next few years in a moral quagmire, either.

Thoughts? I’ve talked to a couple of different priests during confessions, but I have gotten mixed answers. Frankly, I’m not sure there is a solid answer, but I’d like to hear some sound philosophy/theology at work to ease my own mind one way or the other.

Edit to add: I’ve also begun considering importing DVD’s from Japan for shows/movies that aren’t available here, and then after I have discs in hand, seeking out the fan-subtitled downloads on the internet for viewing. It presents the same moral questions as the comics question.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

nesguy:
I am answering a question with a question.
It is a good solution when you do know the answer forthe question.
Suppose that you ar a citizen of Burundi, deep in the middel of Africa, earning maybe 100 US dollars a year but an ONG put there a series of PCs solar powdered and had a connecton free for them to the Internet.
Would it be illegal for them downloading programs and software and information material and movies ?

 

[centurionguard]

I can’t speak for Japan and Africa specifically but as a general rule downloading popular movies and software from different countries on Torrent Sites or sites like Rapidshare and Filesonic are Illegal.

Surely; as a general rule most movies, software and music is owned and copyrighted by someone unless the originating copyright owner is offering it for free.

I know there are Online sites on the Internet that stream popular movies for free but don’t allow you to download. But against my better cautionary judgment I don’t think many of these sites are legitimately legal.

If you haven’t paid for it its stealing. Solution…buy it.

 

[Paul1Up]

For the past decade, I’ve had a mild obsession with foreign media, namely out of Japan. I’ve enjoyed many movies, TV shows, animations (anime), and comics (manga), through both traditional outlets in the US and various methods on the internet. As I’ve aged from a fanboy teenager to a more mature adult in ten years, I have questioned the legality and my stance on acquiring entertainment from another country.

My old argument was always, “If it’s not licensed in this country, it’s ok to download it.” I figured that with no legal alternative, nobody was getting hurt if I simply nabbed something online. Nowadays, with a greater appreciation for the intricacies of copyright law, the Berne Convention, and a healthy dose spiritual perspective, I realize that there’s no need to really stray outside the legally available option in my country. I’ll never get around to watching/reading all that’s already available here, and I need to not be so focused on material things at the expense of my spiritual well-being. Basically, I’ve come to understand that I have no basic human right to be entertained, and just because something exists to entertain some people, doesn’t give me a unilateral right to view it despite the law.

For the time being, I have thus stopped my illegal downloading of foreign shows and movies. However, I have locally a wonderful import bookshop where I can regularly (and cost-effectively) pick up lots of imported comics from Japan. These are still written in Japanese, and many of them have no English equivalent available through licensed channels. So the question of legality started working through my brain once again. I’ve come to wonder at the moral implications of downloading an unofficial, fan-translated version of something I have already purchased at this local shop. This seems to me to present no moral problem, though technically I’m still violating copyright law by obtaining a digital copy of the work in question that’s been translated for me, and that’s where my moral flag starts going up again.

I know that there’s pretty much no chance of ever getting in trouble for such an action as I am now only reading online what I already own a copy of, but I do still wonder at the morality of it all. The artist/company have gotten their money from me, but at the same time, I’m still encouraging the pirates on the internet by giving them page-views and using their services that I doubt 99.99% of other readers own works for. I’ve begun to slowly learn the language, in the hope that some day in the next few years I won’t need to rely on such underhanded methods to enjoy these stories, but I don’t really want to spend the next few years in a moral quagmire, either.

Thoughts? I’ve talked to a couple of different priests during confessions, but I have gotten mixed answers. Frankly, I’m not sure there is a solid answer, but I’d like to hear some sound philosophy/theology at work to ease my own mind one way or the other.

Edit to add: I’ve also begun considering importing DVD’s from Japan for shows/movies that aren’t available here, and then after I have discs in hand, seeking out the fan-subtitled downloads on the internet for viewing. It presents the same moral questions as the comics question.

I think that fan translations in absence of official translations are acceptable if you purchased the original material. In at least several cases, companies later purchased the rights from the fan translators to use as official translations (for example: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ys:_The_Oath_in_Felghana#Releases)
Although, it can be argued that there are economic consequences if many people did this and no one supported the official localizations when they later become available.

 

[_Abyssinia]

I think movies and music have to be made dramatically cheaper if they want to stop the pirating and illegal downloading. I am talking cents per song, per movie.

 

[nesguy]

I think that fan translations in absence of official translations are acceptable if you purchased the original material. In at least several cases, companies later purchased the rights from the fan translators to use as official translations (for example: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ys:_The_Oath_in_Felghana#Releases)
Although, it can be argued that there are economic consequences if many people did this and no one supported the official localizations when they later become available.

That’s my thought as well.

Also, just to be clear, I’m not advocating any kind of illegal downloading of music/movies for domestic stuff whatsoever. I’ve never considered “too expensive” to be a morally justifiable reason to steal something so trivial as entertainment. I might agree that it’s overpriced, but that doesn’t give me the right to take what isn’t mine (physical or digital).

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I can’t speak for Japan and Africa specifically but as a general rule downloading popular movies and software from different countries on Torrent Sites or sites like Rapidshare and Filesonic are Illegal.

Surely; as a general rule most movies, software and music is owned and copyrighted by someone unless the originating copyright owner is offering it for free.

I know there are Online sites on the Internet that stream popular movies for free but don’t allow you to download. But against my better cautionary judgment I don’t think many of these sites are legitimately legal.

If you haven’t paid for it its stealing. Solution…buy it.

For me it is a tough question.
Sometimes I think the companies can defend themselves with anti-copying sftware, other times I think that you go to the supermarket and you do not steal as things are at your disposal.

But how to deal with the poorest countries in the world is tough.

 

[nesguy]

Dealing with the poorest countries in the world isn’t tough for a subject like this. Being poor doesn’t give you an excuse for immoral behavior, unless you are trying to fulfill a basic human need such as feeding yourself, which then isn’t immoral at all. We’re not talking about such basic needs, though, so I don’t think the question is really all that relevant. I know this may sound a bit cold, given that I come from a wealthy country, but I often hear a person’s personal finances bandied about as justification for taking something for free off the internet without permission.

The truth is, there are many legal alternatives, such as libraries, where money isn’t really a problem, or low-cost options like a Netflix DVD subscription (and you can still use free library internet to keep your queue updated). I think that people that complain about the cost of entertainment are actually complaining about the lack of ease to obtain inexpensive/free entertainment, and that just smacks of laziness or a lack of imagination.

If you live in a poor country, and are one of said poor people with access to a PC like the person above suggested, use it to enrich your life. There’s so much free stuff on the internet that’s perfectly legal no matter where you live, it would still be wrong to download software/movies/music that you didn’t pay for.

Still, all that aside, I only got a couple of opinions on my specific question, and I would really appreciate hearing some more. Hypothetical PC’s in Africa don’t really help me understand how to approach my own question.

 

[nesguy]

Anyone else with some thoughts?

 

[Infiltrator]

All things in heaven and earth are owned by God. People love to “own” things - like the rights to a movie, but in the end, it is all Gods so it comes down to this really.

“Thou shatl not steal”

So no. Currently it is not ok for a Catholic to download the media. That is because whoever owns an item’s copyright has forgotten the basic Christian principal of giving freely to others. It is no different from stealing an Apple from a store. Yes the apple should be freely given to someone that cannot afford it without question however that is the choice of the store owner, not the customer.

This is changing across the world as more and more Christians fight this idea of Copyright.

articles.businessinsider.com/2011-10-20/europe/30301117_1_internet-freedoms-political-movement-election

However until the time that the state laws are changed and copyright is majorly reduced, it is still illegal in the country you are in. Give it time and you will be able to do it legally and morally.

 

[nesguy]

All things in heaven and earth are owned by God. People love to “own” things - like the rights to a movie, but in the end, it is all Gods so it comes down to this really.

“Thou shatl not steal”

So no. Currently it is not ok for a Catholic to download the media. That is because whoever owns an item’s copyright has forgotten the basic Christian principal of giving freely to others. It is no different from stealing an Apple from a store. Yes the apple should be freely given to someone that cannot afford it without question however that is the choice of the store owner, not the customer.

This is changing across the world as more and more Christians fight this idea of Copyright.

articles.businessinsider.com/2011-10-20/europe/30301117_1_internet-freedoms-political-movement-election

However until the time that the state laws are changed and copyright is majorly reduced, it is still illegal in the country you are in. Give it time and you will be able to do it legally and morally.

I appreciate you taking the time to answer, and I certainly don’t want to discourage answers by negatively addressing each comment, but it rather seems like you’re answering a different question than I’m asking. Your answer does address the general principles behind illegal downloading, but doesn’t seem to touch on the particular scenario that I’m asking about.

Is it possible to morally hold to the spirit of the law (buying the foreign media) without holding to the technicalities of the law (obtaining a translated version of it from the internet after purchasing the original)?

 

[amber_lux]

Is it possible to morally hold to the spirit of the law (buying the foreign media) without holding to the technicalities of the law (obtaining a translated version of it from the Internet after purchasing the original)?

Technically:

• Downloading the material is not a copyright violation;
• Distributing the material without authorization of the copyright holder is a copyright violation;
• Possession of content that is distributed without the authorization of the copyright holder is not a copyright violation;

Assuming you are an Anime fan, Doujinshi comes into play, at least as far as Japanese courts are concerned. Whether or not that is a legitimate defense in a court in the United States is something you’ll need to discuss with an attorney that specializes in international copyright law. Canadian law is slightly different. My guess is that Doujinshi is a legitimate defence in Canadian courts, but you’d have to check with a barrister that specializes in copyright law.

Copyright, as a concept, has a history of less than 500 years. Its original function was to grant a monopoly to scribes and copyists. To restrict entry into the field, and restrain competition within the field. The motivating force was economics. ( I’ve forgotten the complete citation of Master Salamon Rossi of Mantua’s appeal in 1623 to the Bet Dien.)

The current driving force behind copyright is economics. More specifically, the preservation of an income that has been lost due to the obsolescence of the business model by which it was originally enacted.

Economically, it makes no sense to restrict distribution of a product to specific markets. More to the point, region encoding and the like, increases both production and distribution costs. On the other hand, studios seem to have no problem throwing out content that cost them up to half a million dollars to include in the theatre release of a movie, when it comes to DVD distribution. (Audio description, and other accessibility related functions that are included in the theatrical release, but not the “complete theatre release” of the DVD.)

The ethical issue is if one can utilize content in a format or medium that was not explicitly authorized by the copyright holder.

My response is that if one has purchased the material in a format or medium that the copyright holder did authorize, and the preferred format, or medium is not obtainable, then the format shifting is ethically acceptable. In this specific instance, the format shifting is from Japanese to English. However, this also assumes that there was no EULA attached to the purchase of the material, that prohibited the format shifting. If there is a “your rights removed” EULA, then such format shifting is unethical. The EULA is a contract, albeit made under duress, and should not be legally enforceable, because it is one-sided, and is decidedly not a meeting of the minds, which is required in a legally binding contract. Depending upon your country of residence, and which country holds legal jurisdiction over you, that EULA may or may not be legally binding upon you.

I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice.

Amber

 

[nesguy]

Amber, thank you for the well-thought, non-legal advice .

Your insight into the EULA being a determining factor is indeed interesting, and something I had not considered. This would certainly preclude most software from being used in the manner I described, as they almost always include some form of a EULA. I would follow up to your proposition with a question: Should the presence of a legal disclaimer, say an FBI/Interpol warning at the start-up of a DVD, be considered a EULA? Or is it merely a reminder of the laws that govern the use of the material?

I think I would consider it the latter, but I’m interested in hearing some discussion on this. My reasoning is that a legal disclaimer is merely a statement of governance, but not inherently something you must agree to in order to observe the material. In essence, you do not have to accept the statements given in the warning in order to proceed with viewing the material on the disc. The same could be said for copyright information presented in a book, as in, you don’t have to agree to what’s written before proceeding with reading the material.

That said, I think it could also be arguable that by purchasing said material, the exchange of monies for the item in question represents a sort of contract. “I am giving you this money in exchange for using the item in the manner prescribed by the producer.” On the other hand, this is merely implied in a purchase, and not something specifically laid out before a purchase is made.

 

[amber_lux]

Should the presence of a legal disclaimer, say an FBI/Interpol warning at the start-up of a DVD, be considered a EULA? Or is it merely a reminder of the laws that govern the use of the material?

That is simply a statement of laws that might be applicable.

I think it could also be arguable that by purchasing said material, the exchange of monies for the item in question represents a sort of contract.

What are you purchasing?

In Colorado, one can argue that one is purchasing all of the rights to a DVD, citing a very bad eight district Appeals court decision. All rights means that you own the copyright to the audio output, the images, the movie, and all other auxillary rights that are defined as “intellectual property”.
In California, a ninth district Appeals court ruled that all one is purchasing is the right to view the contents of the DVD, if one has also purchased the appropriate hardware and software.

Go outside the United States, and the law is even more confusing.

Amber