Illegal Immigration a Mortal Sin

[cjcapta]

Redratfish, JohnDamian isn’t saying that if you kill someone, it wouldn’t be bad unless you got caught. We are simply saying that they wouldn’t have lied unless they actually denied it when they were in fact illegal.
From my understanding of life, you don’t have to be an open book. For example, let’s say you had some embarrassing moment in your life. You don’t have to tell everyone you met about it, but if they directly ask you if such a thing happened, you have to tell the truth. If I’m wrong, and the Catholic Church believes that we should tell everyone everything so that we can all be connected as one, then someone can correct me.
But back to illegal immigrants, the issue is whether illegal immigrating in itself is a mortal sin. For example, let’s say you immigrate to the U.S. and become a homeless person with no job. That person isn’t stealing any jobs, now are they? Is that still a sin? It might be, because one could say that they are stealing walking space (meaning they shouldn’t be taking up space on the land because they aren’t here legally), but that issue would be up for debate.

 

[Stylites]

Christ taught us to “give to Caesar what is Caesar’s” and that any authority comes from God; traditionally this has been interpreted by the Church as a moral obligation to obey legitimate authority. A law can only be disobeyed if it mandates sin.

Partly true, and you’re on the right track in recognizing that merely human laws are not the highest arbiter of right and wrong. The Church teaches that even thievery can be sinless even though thievery is generally a sinful act. Caesar mandating that there be no stealing in his realm is a good, but not an absolute good.

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[Stylites]

But back to illegal immigrants, the issue is whether illegal immigrating in itself is a mortal sin. For example, let’s say you immigrate to the U.S. and become a homeless person with no job. That person isn’t stealing any jobs, now are they? Is that still a sin? It might be, because one could say that they are stealing walking space (meaning they shouldn’t be taking up space on the land because they aren’t here legally), but that issue would be up for debate.

‘Stealing sidewalk space’ is an interesting concept. Kinda like ‘robbing oxygen from lawful citizens.’

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[cjcapta]

Partly true, and you’re on the right track in recognizing that merely human laws are not the highest arbiter of right and wrong. The Church teaches that even thievery can be sinless even though thievery is generally a sinful act. Caesar mandating that there be no stealing in his realm is a good, but not an absolute good.

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How can thievery be sinless? The commandment “Thou shall not steal” seems pretty straight-forward. Or do you, like some people, interpret it to only be referring to kidnapping? If so, I don’t think that’s what God meant, as that would seem to have some very drastic consequences.

 

[cjcapta]

‘Stealing sidewalk space’ is an interesting concept. Kinda like ‘robbing oxygen from lawful citizens.’

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Just to make sure you understand, I don’t personally believe that, I was just showing a possible other viewpoint.

 

[CDNowak]

Partly true, and you’re on the right track in recognizing that merely human laws are not the highest arbiter of right and wrong. The Church teaches that even thievery can be sinless even though thievery is generally a sinful act. Caesar mandating that there be no stealing in his realm is a good, but not an absolute good.

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Breaking a law is objectively immoral in itself, so you cannot discount the law as irrelevant to morality (as you seem to be doing).

There is a question of mitigating factors (knowledge and consent) once we establish matter, but I fail to see how these apply to illegal immigration.

 

[Stylites]

Just to make sure you understand, I don’t personally believe that, I was just showing a possible other viewpoint.

Yes, I had understood you were adding a different perspective; sorry if my response implied you had meant otherwise.

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[Stylites]

Breaking a law is objectively immoral in itself, so you cannot discount the law as irrelevant to morality (as you seem to be doing).

There is a question of mitigating factors (knowledge and consent) once we establish matter, but I fail to see how these apply to illegal immigration.

Very wrong. There are instances where breaking the law merited paradise, and others where following the law resulted in hell.

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[Stylites]

How can thievery be sinless? The commandment “Thou shall not steal” seems pretty straight-forward. Or do you, like some people, interpret it to only be referring to kidnapping? If so, I don’t think that’s what God meant, as that would seem to have some very drastic consequences.

You would need to address your concern to the Magesterium, not me. I am only passing along what the Church teaches, not what some people misinterpret of Public Revelation.

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[pnewton]

The Lair of the Catholic Cavemen blog proved, with the Catechism of the Catholic Church, that illegal immigrants are almost always in a state of mortal sin**.Why are bishops not teaching their flocks this?**

Because even the most ignorant priest ever would know more moral theology than this blogger. There are multiple untrue statements and ill-founded conclusions.

At lease he got the number of commandments right.

 

[DeaconsSon87]

I thought the USA was supposed to be the “shining city on the hill” which others came to so they could seek freedom.

On one hand, I believe that our current policy is outdated. On the other hand, I believe that if a person feels a certain law is unjust, it is his duty to make efforts to try and get it changed rather than flat-out disobey it.

Here’s what I believe will happen though:

a. The USA declares martial law on Arizona and other states with similar laws.
b. These states vote to secede from the Union.
c. Civil War II.

(whistles “Battle Hymn of the Republic”)

 

[mark_a]

The Lair of the Catholic Cavemen blog proved, with the Catechism of the Catholic Church, that illegal immigrants are almost always in a state of mortal sin.Why are bishops not teaching their flocks this?

Thankfully, reason found a way through some rather stormy times for the USCCB.

What I would like to see, though, is the USCCB address the seriousness of the sin of the folks who illegally employ these immigrants for their own gain.

 

[Stylites]

Thankfully, reason found a way through some rather stormy times for the USCCB.

What I would like to see, though, is the USCCB address the seriousness of the sin of the folks who illegally employ these immigrants for their own gain.

Giving a livelihood to a poor person is such a sin, eh? How dare employers gain from providing a needed good or service which benefits society!

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[CDNowak]

Very wrong. There are instances where breaking the law merited paradise, and others where following the law resulted in hell.

You would need to address your concern to the Magesterium, not me. I am only passing along what the Church teaches, not what some people misinterpret of Public Revelation.

You are doing a poor job of doing what you claim to be doing:

1899 The authority required by the moral order derives from God: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.** Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment**."17

Except in the case of an unjust law, there is a moral duty of obedience. To act contrary to this is objectively wrong (whether it is a sin depends on consent and knowledge, whether it is a crime depends merely on consent). You are oversimplifying, it seems with ulterior motive, and as such are misrepresenting the teaching of the Church.

As noted by Pope Benedict, Bishop Slattery, and others nations have a right to secure their borders (party of their duty to the common good and all that). (Yes, I recognize that the conversation goes further but that is outside the scope of this thread.)

 

[LilyM]

My parents didn’t enter their new country illegally back in the day, they went through correct channels to obtain permission to enter and stay.

They DID, however, LEAVE their previous country of residence illegally. The law of the country at that time required citizens to seek permission to travel, but especially to move to another country (which was rarely if ever granted).

In fact they had to pretend they were just going on a short holiday to a neighbouring country and decamp from there, possibly meaning they lied (by omission) on the documentation when they sought permission to travel. I’ve never asked them whether they did so, in fact the thought never occurred to me until now.

It’s an interesting consideration whether notions of state sovereignty, if they dictate an almost absolute power on the part of a government to determine who can ENTER a country, extends so far as to mean that the same government also has similarly broad power in terms of who can LEAVE.

So did my parents commit mortal sin (assuming they did lie) as well? If not, why not? Certainly a mass exodus of people, or even the defection of one single famous or important person, can have huge negative political consequences for a country politically and economically.

 

[mark_a]

Giving a livelihood to a poor person is such a sin, eh? How dare employers gain from providing a needed good or service which benefits society!

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Are these folks not breaking the law by hiring illegals?

 

[Emilyfromohio]

Breaking a law is objectively immoral in itself, so you cannot discount the law as irrelevant to morality (as you seem to be doing).

There is a question of mitigating factors (knowledge and consent) once we establish matter, but I fail to see how these apply to illegal immigration.

Allow me to be off topic. But following a state law that violates the law of God is objectively wrong. God’s law is above state law. A crazy example would be if the state law told you that you had to kill your first born daughter. It is objectively wrong for you to follow that law.

This has nothing to do with immigration

 

[KathleenElsie]

This is what I think:

There is a need for some unskilled workers here in the USA. Most of them are temp jobs and fall under the rules that regulate migrant workers. These people deserve a fair wage and proper living quarters. Health care for them while they are here working. We have an obligation to treat them with dignity and respect. They have the obligation to follow the laws of the USA while in our country.
There can be a need for temp skilled workers here in the USA. Again they deserve to be paid the prevailing wage (no not union wage) that US citizens are paid with benefits while they are working here. These jobs should only be out sourced until US citizens are trained to do the work. Again we have an obligation to treat them with dignity and respect. They have an obligation to follow our laws and treat us and our laws with dignity and respect also.
There should be limited legal immigration into this country. These applicants to come into our country should have a desire to truly merge into our melting-pot. Persons that want to remain true to their former country should be eliminated from those eligible for citizenship status.
Those that have an honest conviction that they would be murdered or imprisoned in their home country should be given a special exemption till their safety status can be proven. Asylum has been a tradition in our country since it was founded.
An anchor baby should only be entitled to choose where they live after they turn 21 years of age. Till that time they are to be returned to their mothers home country.

 

[CDNowak]

My parents didn’t enter their new country illegally back in the day, they went through correct channels to obtain permission to enter and stay.

They DID, however, LEAVE their previous country of residence illegally. The law of the country at that time required citizens to seek permission to travel, but especially to move to another country (which was rarely if ever granted).

In fact they had to pretend they were just going on a short holiday to a neighbouring country and decamp from there, possibly meaning they lied (by omission) on the documentation when they sought permission to travel. I’ve never asked them whether they did so, in fact the thought never occurred to me until now.

It’s an interesting consideration whether notions of state sovereignty, if they dictate an almost absolute power on the part of a government to determine who can ENTER a country, extends so far as to mean that the same government also has similarly broad power in terms of who can LEAVE.

So did my parents commit mortal sin (assuming they did lie) as well? If not, why not? Certainly a mass exodus of people, or even the defection of one single famous or important person, can have huge negative political consequences for a country politically and economically.

Not allowing people to leave a nation is more akin to imprisonment than to the issue of immigration.

 

[Stylites]

Are these folks not breaking the law by hiring illegals?

Somehow I don’t recall Scripture saying “Welcome the stranger in your midst as long as Caesar approves of their residency first.”

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