Illegal Immigration and Morality

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Is it morally OK for a Catholic to be against Illegal Immigration?

Is it a sin for an immigrant to migrate to a country illegally? I ask this because I have heard of the concept of “law of the Land” and how it is a sin to break that.

This Topic is also intended for debating Illegal Immigration. I am personally against it, and if we get a charitable discussion going then I will reveal more about why I am against it.
 
There is nothing immoral about opposing illegal immigration, provided your reasons for opposing it are properly grounded (not “I hate Mexicans”).

Whether it is sinful to BE an illegal immigrant is a more complex question. It is possible that one illegal immigrant sins while another does not.

Jesus taught us that we should obey laws, but our obedience has limits. For example, Jesus was accused of breaking the Jewish Law regarding the Sabbath:
At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.” He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. (Matt 12:1-3)
David and his companions were starving, and they broke the law; they were convinced it was the only way for them to survive - and they were held innocent. An illegal immigrant may be doing the same thing, and could very well be free of sin (only God knows for sure).

Or the immigrant may be trying to gain access to America so he can live a lazy live on the dole. This immigrant may be guilty of sin (but only God knows for sure).
 
There is nothing immoral about opposing illegal immigration, provided your reasons for opposing it are properly grounded (not “I hate Mexicans”).

Whether it is sinful to BE an illegal immigrant is a more complex question. It is possible that one illegal immigrant sins while another does not.

Jesus taught us that we should obey laws, but our obedience has limits. For example, Jesus was accused of breaking the Jewish Law regarding the Sabbath:

David and his companions were starving, and they broke the law; they were convinced it was the only way for them to survive - and they were held innocent. An illegal immigrant may be doing the same thing, and could very well be free of sin (only God knows for sure).

Or the immigrant may be trying to gain access to America so he can live a lazy live on the dole. This immigrant may be guilty of sin (but only God knows for sure).
Very interesting. I understand what you are saying about the immigrant starving and thinking that coming to America (Illegally) would be the answer. From our perspective, I think we should still uphold our laws and customs, but at the same time, recognize a need to donate to these people.

I personally am against Illegal Immigration from Mexico for the following reasons…
  1. Mexico’s GDP per Capita is in the top 35 percentile in the world. Their Economy is really not all that bad. It is better off than a number of European Countries including Russia.
  2. By allowing Illegal Immigration we are not allowing Legal Immigration. There are millions of people who are waiting in line to come here legally. Imagine if we were able to increase the amount of legal immigrants by decreasing illegals…we might be able to take in more Starving East Africans.
  3. The Drug Cartel. Drugs are creeping over the border along with the Illegal Immigrants. I have heard figures as high as 100 billion dollars worth every year.
  4. More than 90 Billion Dollars in Government Benefits (Welfare, Health Care, and yes Financial Aid) go to Illegal Immigrants. This is a lot of money when you figure that the United States yearly budget is 1.5 trillion. This may have made the difference in our AAA bond rating.
  5. Most Illegal Immigrants come here to get on Welfare. They don’t have to work. They simply just have children.
  6. They will most likely vote democrat. 44% of Democrats want to award them with Amnesty right now. While only 33% Independents and 16% Republican.
 
  1. Mexico’s GDP per Capita is in the top 35 percentile in the world. Their Economy is really not all that bad. It is better off than a number of European Countries including Russia.
There are non-economic reasons to flee to the US - drug cartels are a pretty strong example.
  1. By allowing Illegal Immigration we are not allowing Legal Immigration. There are millions of people who are waiting in line to come here legally.
I’m not sure there are “millions” who have actually applied. But I’m pretty sure that the State Department does not consider illegal immigration when figuring how many legal visas are available.
  1. The Drug Cartel. Drugs are creeping over the border along with the Illegal Immigrants.
I think the porous Southern boarder is allowing a lot of drug trafficking activity, but think that the vast majority of illegal Mexican immigrants want nothing to do with the drug lords.
  1. More than 90 Billion Dollars in Government Benefits (Welfare, Health Care, and yes Financial Aid) go to Illegal Immigrants. This is a lot of money when you figure that the United States yearly budget is 1.5 trillion. This may have made the difference in our AAA bond rating.
That’s an economic argument, which is very ethically complicated.
  1. Most Illegal Immigrants come here to get on Welfare. They don’t have to work. They simply just have children.
My oldest son worked for some years on a farm in Portland, driving a tractor. He was pretty sure that many field hands were illegals. But they were the hardest workers. Anybody was welcome to work the fields - the hands were paid by the basket/bushel/pound or whatever (depending on the crop). Most Anglos (usually teenagers who snapped up easy employment) quit in a week or two. Their production (and their pay) was 1/5 of the Mexicans.

I will absolutely assure you that if we deport every illegal Mexican immigrant, the price of food will skyrocket - and many crops which must be hand-harvested will die in the field.

A close relative of mine is a Catholic priest in a rural Georgia farming community. Half of his Parish are Latinos (and most are probably illegal - he does not ask). When it is time to tend the grounds or paint the church it is largely the Latinos who answer the call.
  1. They will most likely vote democrat. 44% of Democrats want to award them with Amnesty right now. While only 33% Independents and 16% Republican.
I’m a solid Republican, and I want to award them amnesty right now (but seal the boarder).
 
There are non-economic reasons to flee to the US - drug cartels are a pretty strong example.
I’m not sure there are “millions” who have actually applied. But I’m pretty sure that the State Department does not consider illegal immigration when figuring how many legal visas are available.

I think the porous Southern boarder is allowing a lot of drug trafficking activity, but think that the vast majority of illegal Mexican immigrants want nothing to do with the drug lords.

That’s an economic argument, which is very ethically complicated.

My oldest son worked for some years on a farm in Portland, driving a tractor. He was pretty sure that many field hands were illegals. But they were the hardest workers. Anybody was welcome to work the fields - the hands were paid by the basket/bushel/pound or whatever (depending on the crop). Most Anglos (usually teenagers who snapped up easy employment) quit in a week or two. Their production (and their pay) was 1/5 of the Mexicans.

I will absolutely assure you that if we deport every illegal Mexican immigrant, the price of food will skyrocket - and many crops which must be hand-harvested will die in the field.

A close relative of mine is a Catholic priest in a rural Georgia farming community. Half of his Parish are Latinos (and most are probably illegal - he does not ask). When it is time to tend the grounds or paint the church it is largely the Latinos who answer the call.

I’m a solid Republican, and I want to award them amnesty right now (but seal the boarder).
You make some very interesting points. Do you have any factual evidence that supports your claim about drug cartels being a major reason for Illegal Immigration?

Also, you would have to show evidence of your claim that Food Prices would Skyrocket. By eliminating Illegal Immigration we would create more jobs and wages would rise in certain industries (i.e. Construction/Carpentry). Also we would cut government spending since we would not be forking out welfare money to them.
 
There is a wide range of opinion that is acceptable on the subject. I do think it is important for a Catholic in America to read what the USCCB has said on the subject and weigh the importance of it in their opinion. The bishops are our teacher, after all.
 
I don’t disagree with pnewton. I’ll just say to the OP that it is not only a complex economic issue; it is a complex moral issue. A simplistic pro-migrant position does not account for the very real, practical ways in which large critical masses of immigrant populations settle in particular regions, cities, neighborhoods, putting breaking strain on social services. Even though in most cases, illegal immigrants are not receiving “welfare” as such, they are indeed receiving vast amounts of social services (translation services; free legal services which non-immigrants do not receive; certain educational and medical services not as available to legal residents, etc.). Up until fairly recent history, localities could handle this kind of influx without jeopardizing other needy residents. That has changed dramatically in the last 10 years, and especially in the last 3. It is quite immoral to remove safety nets from resident poor populations (unemployable residents, elderly residents, the mentally ill, the local hungry) when budgets are used to serve undocumented migrants, and no alternative is in place for those legally here.

And the situation has now been complicated (since 2008) by the Big Money collapse, which has affected most State budgets to some degree, and some to a great degree. So even though, relatively speaking, we look to the rest of the world like ‘the land of plenty,’ the national budget (such as it is right now!) is not available to make up for local needs. Geographic distribution is the factor in migration that requires discerning whether, or how much, moral conflicts are being created.

If the undocumented arrivals repeated the diversity of background that legal immigrants have (from the unskilled to the highly skilled), it would also be less of a budgetary and manpower problem by those in the public sector who provide essential services of daily living. However, when the neediness on many levels far outweighs the capacity of local agencies to address that neediness, then services to the legally residing needy are jeopardized.

It simply is not a black-and-white issue from any angle. And unfortunately some of the moral complexities are exacerbated by the fact that immigration is a political football subject to manipulation by parties and candidates on all sides of the issue.
 
If the undocumented arrivals repeated the diversity of background that legal immigrants have (from the unskilled to the highly skilled), it would also be less of a budgetary and manpower problem by those in the public sector who provide essential services of daily living.
Or if they paid in taxes and fees a fair share to the government entities that provided services this would not be a problem. I agree that this is a complex issue that defies easy solutions. It is why there is such a divergence of opinion allowed. My parish has a large immigrant demographic (legal and illegal). We serve them as is our mission. On the other hand, I heard that at VBS this year the priest made it a point to teach all the prayers in English, and stressed the obligation immigrants have to the host country. Immigration, legal or not, must be a two way street, both culturally and economically.
 
Or if they paid in taxes and fees a fair share to the government entities that provided services this would not be a problem.
Not really. Governments cannot create manpower needs virtually overnight, when waves of immigration become sudden and the personnel are not available to provide those services. That’s why planned migration is superior and much less likely to jeopardize the resident poor: it calculates precisely for these incoming needs, anticipating how much personnel will be available for particular needs. And again, the greater the economic (needy) homogeneity of any immigrant group, the greater the pressure on services, since unlike non-needy immigrants who come for other reasons and contribute in different ways, the unskilled have much greater need of government personnel and government-initiated provisions, including certain medical (jpublic health) needs which more well-to-do immigrants can pay for more readily. And as I pointed out on an earlier thread, the massive illiteracy of most of the current population of the undocumented, introduces unique challenges for which the public schools are actually not intended and were never intended. (Most people do not understand, or take for granted because it doesn’t occur to them, that public schools in this country were always intended as supplemental aspects of a child’s education, and that an enormous fraction of basic education/literacy must take place at home, given the relative brevity of the school day and the paucity of individual attention & reinforcement. That’s a historic fact, not a new phenomenon.)
My parish has a large immigrant demographic (legal and illegal). We serve them as is our mission. On the other hand, I heard that at VBS this year the priest made it a point to teach all the prayers in English, and stressed the obligation immigrants have to the host country.
That’s fine, but those are church-specific services and responses. Those are not secular services which is where the bulk of the impact (and impact on the poor, both Catholic and non-Catholic) exists, and where the very moral conflict that is being discussed occurs. Jesus didn’t say, “Just serve the poor of your own religion.” The mandate exists equally for black Baptists, and other persons of poverty (Asian, Caucasian) despite religions, plural, or the lack thereof.
 
Not really. Governments cannot create manpower needs virtually overnight, …
It is not necessary. There is no overnight surge of immigration. Our current immigrant population is a result of years, not one night.
 
It is not necessary. There is no overnight surge of immigration. Our current immigrant population is a result of years, not one night.
Wrong. Very wrong. When I speak of “overnight” I am speaking of relative impact. Three to five years, for example, is like overnight on some large systems, in some heavily impacted areas. It has nothing to do with gradual increases nationally, but severely imbalanced results locally. (Why do I have to keep repeating myself?Hmmm.) Those of us who live in these areas, and serve these populations, know precisely what the differences are, region to region, city to city, and relative to the conflicting budgetary needs and available personnel of those cities and regions.

Eventually, some of those local impacts can disburse throughout a larger population. Unfortunately, local economies being contracted as they are in the last several years, this earlier historical pattern has not been repeated recently, so the severe impacts remain, affecting poor native residents long term. (When local economies suffer, people do not often leave. However, it’s not quite that simple, either, because one sometimes needs money to move, particularly to a location in which the market might be better for one’s services, but there are no relatives or other ‘friendly’ supports to help with that transition.)

At the moment, in my region, there is not in the last 2 years an increase in undocumented immigration, but rather a stasis, meaning that poor native populations are still not being served. Newer undocumented are seeking other locations, which at least is not magnifying the pressures on services locally, but neither is it reducing it. So many local poor are still not being served. That is the crux of the moral dilemma that is being discussed.
 
Let me just say I will stick with the Catholic Church instead on this.
As will I. I do know my moral theology when it comes to the preferential option for the poor. I have tried to frame the very real mandate for both the migrant poor and the non-migrant poor. It is sometimes difficult for those who have not experienced this conflict first-hand to believe it exists.
 
As will I. I do know my moral theology when it comes to the preferential option for the poor. I have tried to frame the very real mandate for both the migrant poor and the non-migrant poor. It is sometimes difficult for those who have not experienced this conflict first-hand to believe it exists.
I think its important to recognize the poors needs. How would you feel about more restriction on Illegal Immigration with increased donations? Have you thought that by restricting our borders with mexico, and decreasing mexican migration we could increase migration from other places like somalia or ethiopia (places that are much worse than Mexico)?
 
I think its important to recognize the poors needs.
As do I! 🙂
As long as one understands that there is grinding poverty among some resident poor, here, that has existed in the form that is called “structural poverty,” often complicated by continuing generations of insufficient education, leading to poor employment prospects. (Which fact then becomes exacerbated if such natives are unfortunate enough to live in cities disporportionately affected by other functionally illiterate people, whose language then dominates the public school classroom, making a foreign language the default language and the native poor out of luck. That is what was discussed on a recent thread on immigration in the Social Justice forum, I believe.)
How would you feel about more restriction on Illegal Immigration with increased donations? Have you thought that by restricting our borders with mexico, and decreasing mexican migration we could increase migration from other places like somalia or ethiopia (places that are much worse than Mexico)?
Well I think in terms of the legal immigration process, the U.S. government tries (not always successfully!) to distribute the needs across nations. #1, however (as others have pointed out on that previous thread) the cumbersome process itself compromises that equitable distribution; #2, there are far more needs, globally, than we can accommodate annually.

However, that does not address the situation from Mexico, because the number of illegals is so great and has not been controlled by the government. Therefore, “restriction” is almost an irrelevant word. Restrictions of illegal immigration are minor & mostly impotent (so far). Further, there is an unholy alliance between businesses here who encourage such illegal migration with their non-verifying employment policies, and our government which refuses to require all States to use e-verify (it’s optional now), and the Mexican government which is the Big Winner in all of this, given that US employment quiets their own restless natives, in that such acquired US employment pumps money back into the Mexican population & economy (from the north) with zero consequences suffered by the filthy rich, corrupt Mexican government & their officials.

,Speaking of, the great injustice is that which occurs below our borders, and which Cries Out to Heaven for correction. The rural Mexican poor, as well as those Mexicans who would have a fighting chance for a middle class existence in Mexico – were it not for the corrupt system down there which restricts that social climbing (limits individual wealth), are only trying themselves to escape injustice. Insofar as we can accommodate those valid universal rights to survival, we should be guided by Jesus’ message and the message of the bishops – as long as by doing so we are not creating another injustice.

I’m actually, by some standards, “soft” on this. Many people believe that even one undocumented immigrant who slips across the border is itself an injustice. I don’t think that from a Christian viewpoint that is supportable, but I also think that those who fool themselves into believing that by supporting illegal immigration they are supporting “justice” need to think again about who is not being proactively offered a place at the table: people living in wretched poverty in Somalia, Rwanda, southeast Asia, Ethiopia, the Caribbean, Indonesia, India, etc., who are geographically not within any kind of easy immigration distance – legal or illegal. Their needs for survival are at least as severe and urgent, and I don’t see any pro-illegal immigration folks retrieving these other populations through initiatives private or public.

(So I’m answering your question indirectly.) In terms of legal immigration, the system needs reform. Those who have been through it (I haven’t) know first-hand how bureuacratic and discouraging it is. If the borders are sealed (big job not easily done) and employers were held accountable for all their looking the other way, we could then at least have an orderly process of absorbing people based on a variety of priorities for them and for us, in which mutual need and benefit would be the guide. Political asylum should always be a priority. Economic opportunity should be accommodated as long as the net benefit – to a particular locality – outweighs any adjustment concerns and does not aggravate the economic situation of the existing poor in that region. Unfortunately, most of the studies so far regarding net economic benefit/loss to the country have been national studies, which are meaningless. Impact is experienced locally for the most part, especially when it comes to the undocumented.

One thing (i.m.o.) that should be a consideration as to where any legal immigrants initially settle should be how that region is already impacted, for that economic class represented by such arrivals. IOW, depending on your situation, you might initially (only) be restricted from settling in a particular economically hard-hit area, (hard-hit by those in the same economic class as yourself), for a temporary period. It makes no sense to compromise your survival from the outset, or that of your new neighbors. Naturally after that short period, your mobility, like everybody else’s, would be unlimited.
 
Case Closed?
Only if one does not mind proof-texting. (This is one of the worst cases I have ever seen) Read the document, the clause above (it was not a statement) was a prelude to the word “but”, hence the word “should”, meaning ideally that would be the goal. Other parts of the document include:
The Church considers the problem of illegal migrants from the standpoint of Christ, who died to gather together the dispersed children of God (cf. Jn 11:52), to rehabilitate the marginalized and to bring close those who are distant, in order to integrate all within a communion that is not based on ethnic, cultural or social membership, but on the common desire to accept God’s word and to seek justice. “God shows no partiality, but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him”
n. The necessary prudence required to deal with so delicate a matter cannot become one of reticence or exclusivity, because thousands would suffer the consequences as victims of situations that seem destined to deteriorate instead of being resolved. His irregular legal status cannot allow the migrant to lose his dignity, since he is endowed with inalienable rights, which can neither be violated nor ignored.
Solidarity means taking responsibility for those in trouble. For Christians, the migrant is not merely an individual to be respected in accordance with the norms established by law, but a person whose presence challenges them and whose needs become an obligation for their responsibility. “What have you done to your brother?” (cf. Gn 4:9). The answer should not be limited to what is imposed by law, but should be made in the manner of solidarity.
If some one wants to be taught, and not just find ammo or a talking point, read the whole document, not the one phrase that is convenient. Ender is right in one point. It is acceptable to be opposed to illegal immigration. I am myself. But I seek a change in the law, not a “ship them all back” solution. I do not view the latter as a solution.
 
Very interesting. I understand what you are saying about the immigrant starving and thinking that coming to America (Illegally) would be the answer. From our perspective, I think we should still uphold our laws and customs, but at the same time, recognize a need to donate to these people.

I personally am against Illegal Immigration from Mexico for the following reasons…
  1. Mexico’s GDP per Capita is in the top 35 percentile in the world. Their Economy is really not all that bad. It is better off than a number of European Countries including Russia.
  2. By allowing Illegal Immigration we are not allowing Legal Immigration. There are millions of people who are waiting in line to come here legally. Imagine if we were able to increase the amount of legal immigrants by decreasing illegals…we might be able to take in more Starving East Africans.
  3. The Drug Cartel. Drugs are creeping over the border along with the Illegal Immigrants. I have heard figures as high as 100 billion dollars worth every year.
  4. More than 90 Billion Dollars in Government Benefits (Welfare, Health Care, and yes Financial Aid) go to Illegal Immigrants. This is a lot of money when you figure that the United States yearly budget is 1.5 trillion. This may have made the difference in our AAA bond rating.
  5. Most Illegal Immigrants come here to get on Welfare. They don’t have to work. They simply just have children.
  6. They will most likely vote democrat. 44% of Democrats want to award them with Amnesty right now. While only 33% Independents and 16% Republican.
  1. the mexican economy is improving, largely because of NAFTA and because they finally got rid of their their revolutionary government after 80 some years.
  2. I do not beleive limits on legal immigration are set based on the number of illegals entering the country. It is true that our number of legal immigrants are way too low, especially from Mexcio. If we fixed this, we might largely fix the problem
  3. The drug cartel is a problem of US origin. We should keep that in mind when bashing Mexico. It is certainly a reason to increase security on the US border, which would be easier to do if we had a fair immigration system with fair legal immigration system between us and Mexico
  4. I call complete BS on your numbers. I don’t believe it is that high. And the idea that it affected the downgrade from AAA is ludicrous; considering our deficits are $1.5T and our debt is around 14T.
  5. Now your true bigoted colors are showing. It is a falsehood. Very few immigrants (legal or illegal) from Mexico get on welfare. Most of them are very hard working people. Many of them start small businesses.
  6. So it is obvious you are republican, as am I. It is unfortunate that the GOP, because of people like you have driven off the Hispanic vote for maybe the next generation. Bush showed us in Texas how the GOP could attract the hispanic vote in his runs for govenor and in his first presidential win. They are typically very socially conservative and expect little out of the government; a minority group that should have been prime pickings for the GOP with its stance on abortion, gay marriage, etc. Alas, that opportunity has been wasted.
 
  1. the mexican economy is improving, largely because of NAFTA and because they finally got rid of their their revolutionary government after 80 some years.
  2. I do not beleive limits on legal immigration are set based on the number of illegals entering the country. It is true that our number of legal immigrants are way too low, especially from Mexcio. If we fixed this, we might largely fix the problem
  3. The drug cartel is a problem of US origin. We should keep that in mind when bashing Mexico. It is certainly a reason to increase security on the US border, which would be easier to do if we had a fair immigration system with fair legal immigration system between us and Mexico
  4. I call complete BS on your numbers. I don’t believe it is that high. And the idea that it affected the downgrade from AAA is ludicrous; considering our deficits are $1.5T and our debt is around 14T.
  5. Now your true bigoted colors are showing. It is a falsehood. Very few immigrants (legal or illegal) from Mexico get on welfare. Most of them are very hard working people. Many of them start small businesses.
  6. So it is obvious you are republican, as am I. It is unfortunate that the GOP, because of people like you have driven off the Hispanic vote for maybe the next generation. Bush showed us in Texas how the GOP could attract the hispanic vote in his runs for govenor and in his first presidential win. They are typically very socially conservative and expect little out of the government; a minority group that should have been prime pickings for the GOP with its stance on abortion, gay marriage, etc. Alas, that opportunity has been wasted.
4&5) Its actually more…fairus.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=16980&security=1601&news_iv_ctrl=1017
  1. I don’t think its worth taking a risk to bring a bunch of people from a foreign nation into a country and try to convince them to vote Republican. Would we do that if these were Iraqi’s, Chinese, Russians, etc.? I dont believe so. We wouldn’t trust people from these countries if massive amounts of them were flooding into the United States. Did you know that many of these Immigrants believe that a large portion of the United States belongs to Mexico? Have you considered that this is an invasion? Don’t you feel strongly about National Security? I don’t think its worth the risk to allow for these people to come into our country…have 10 kids…so that their kids get college educations…so that they eventually grow up and take power in the Government…who knows what would happen if they gained enough power in the Government. Look at what the Obama administration represents…they basically support Muslims in their conquest to destroy Israel. If we get all these different interests taking political positions in our government then my fear would be that their would be chaos…nobody would be able to agree on anything, etc. What if Russia decided one day that they wanted to take back Eastern Europe or even all of Europe? Our government would be less likely to declare war because of all the different interests that are plaguing the government. There needs to be likemindedness.
 
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