Illegal Immigration and the Church

[Ender]

I find it difficult to believe that people come across illegally, not for work or government benefits, but for help from a church.

That isn’t why they come but such assistance surely contributes to their ability and willingness to remain.

As far as charity helping those who are illegal at the expense of citizens, this idea misses what charity is.

The jobs that illegals take often come at the expense of American citizens. Whatever is done to facilitate the continued presence of illegals also facilitates the loss of jobs for Americans. There is competition for those jobs between our poor and “their” poor. Is it charitable to aid one group at the expense of another?

helping the poor can not be done for the sake of helping illegal immigration or can charity be withheld for the purpose of discouraging it.

I don’t suggest that helping illegals is done for the purpose of aiding illegal immigration, I am saying that such help in fact does aid illegal immigration whether or not it is intended to. As to whether charity can be withheld for the purpose of discouraging illegal immigration, I’m not sure that that would be wrong. There is a twofold effect from such help, one good and the other bad and it is not at all obvious that the former outweighs the latter.

Ender

 

[pnewton]

. As to whether charity can be withheld for the purpose of discouraging illegal immigration, I’m not sure that that would be wrong.

Then you have more courage than I. I fear least I hear the words:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[jackfromlakewoo]

Say Yes to Roman Catholic Church
Say No to Church leaders
Say Yes to Thou shall not steal

Say No to Illegal Immigration
Say Yes to Thou Shall not Covet Neighbors Goods
Say No to Unsecured Borders
Say Yes to Personal Responsibility
Say No to Pedophile Priest
Say Yes to Politicians who support Life
Say No to Bishops who allow Politicians to call themselves Catholic and support abortions.
Say Yes to Paying Taxes owed
Say No to Underground Cash earnings
Say Yes to Employers who follow the Law
Say No to Unscrupulous and Greedy Employers

The Church leaders have difficulty enforcing their own laws of attending Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligations. Maybe they should start with their own responsibility instead of trying to deal with the secular government responsibility. Helping a person in need is not the same as encouraging the immigrants to demand something they are clearly not entitled to. Church leaders shouldn’t be involved with promoting the illegal immigration issue by having church forums in which they encourage illegal immigrants to write to our congressmen.

 

[Ender]

Then you have more courage than I. I fear least I hear the words:

You really ought to at least acknowledge my argument even if you don’t agree with it. I’ll ask it again: is it charitable to take from one person to give to another? Is it just to help one group at the cost of harming another group? Would you consider it noble to steal from Mr. Smith in order to help Mr. Jones? Most actions have multiple effects beyond what was intended; the fact that you choose to ignore those other effects doesn’t mean they are not real. The situation is not as simple as you portray it.

Ender

 

[saayra]

I’ll ask it again: is it charitable to take from one person to give to another? Is it just to help one group at the cost of harming another group? Would you consider it noble to steal from Mr. Smith in order to help Mr. Jones? Most actions have multiple effects beyond what was intended; the fact that you choose to ignore those other effects doesn’t mean they are not real. The situation is not as simple as you portray it.

Ender

We are just beginning to experience the devastating effects of this indiscriminate charity. Dealing with the needs of people fleeing from a dysfunctional neighboring country is complicated for sure. But continuing to support an attitude of unlimited benevolence is going to alter our standard of living in ways we can only imagine at the present time. We already see some of this as we experience hospitals and schools that are overburdened.

As I stated before, the mission of the Church is to provide assistance to people teaching them to better their circumstances within their own countries. There is a huge difference between giving handouts and going one step further and showing others how to alter their environment. (ex:helping them put in wells and plumbing, and showing them how to grow crops and manufacture goods, and to effectively challenge the bureaucracy).

As far as I am concerned, the welfare program in this country is a failure since it frequently fails to motivate many recipients to help themselves. It is unrealistic to believe that any country will not suffer from the impact of a high ratio of people on the receiving end with fewer and fewer people who can afford to support the rest.

 

[D317]

Did anyone know that illegal immigrants from Mexico send about $45 BILLION back into the Mexican economy? It isn’t about charity, its about money. I’m not picking on Mexicans, it just happens to be the data in the public domain.

I lived in Latin America for about 7 years [legally I might add because those countries don’t play our stupid games] and have a deep affection for the Latin American people. Just like in America, they are generally hard working people trying to make a living and better themselves in mostly a tough environment.

The operative term is ILLEGAL. The USA has been a MELTING POT and illegal immigration is forcing us to become a salad bowl. There are illegal immigrant communities where English isn’t even a recognized language and they are demanding tax supported infrastructure and welfare! Not to mention the militant elements that want large parts of the US returned to Mexico. This is ruining the fabric of our country.

I saw a report on EWTN that stated that many of the Catholic immigrants are falling away from the faith because of our [OK, I’ll say it] sinful environment in America that they are exposed to. Its the In-Your-Face Pornography, lax moral attitude, drugs, gangs…This can’t be good for them, can it?

Other immigrants have come in to this country legally, blended into the community, and have been productive CITIZENS. The current situation has created an environment where they don’t want to be US Citizens, they want money. Most don’t even want to speak English to get it either!!

We are becoming a large ATM machine for the rest of the world. I can see the “going out of business” signs being hung on our country now.

 

[drafdog]

I think that the theory is that we are Christians helping fellow Christians. Since we are all citizens of the same country (the kingdom of God) there is no “immigration” involved. The commandment is to love one another. It doesn’t say anything about national boundaries, citizenship or immigration status, political affiliation or what not. Just love one another.

Matthew

 

[Ender]

I think that the theory is that we are Christians helping fellow Christians. Since we are all citizens of the same country (the kingdom of God) there is no “immigration” involved. The commandment is to love one another. It doesn’t say anything about national boundaries, citizenship or immigration status, political affiliation or what not. Just love one another.

This is surely how it is presented: charity for all … love one another … group hug … kumbaya, while the details of what is actually happening are lost or willfully ignored. Illegal immigration is having a significant negative affect on this country and whatever is done that facilitates it contributes to the problem.

Pretty much everyone is willing to condemn employers who hire people and pay less than minimum wage, who don’t pay social security taxes, or who don’t provide safe working conditions. Are you also willing to condemn the people who facilitate those employers? Are you willing to help Pedro knowing that as you do so you are also helping him take a job away from Pete?

It is not enough to say “let’s help everyone”. Illegal immigration causes real harm and aiding illegals has a twofold effect. The fact that our only intent is to help those in need does not excuse us from responsibility for making a bad situation worse.

Ender

 

[RachelsAlumni]

I think that the theory is that we are Christians helping fellow Christians. Since we are all citizens of the same country (the kingdom of God) there is no “immigration” involved. The commandment is to love one another. It doesn’t say anything about national boundaries, citizenship or immigration status, political affiliation or what not. Just love one another.

Matthew

You’ve got that right!

The commandment Our Lord gave us to love applies not only to Christians loving Christians, it’s extends even to loving our enemies.

How sad that we fail to love even our own neighbors, to say nothing of the Lord’s command to love our enemies, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and WELCOME the Stranger.

 

[Ender]

How sad that we fail to love even our own neighbors, to say nothing of the Lord’s command to love our enemies, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and WELCOME the Stranger.

It is charity for you to give up your own job; it is sanctimony for you to give up someone else’s job. Here is Aquinas on charity (II/II 26):

(6) “Or we may reply that we have unequal love for certain persons in two ways: first, through our loving some and not loving others. As regards beneficence we are bound to observe this inequality, because we cannot do good to all: but as regards benevolence, love ought not to be thus unequal.”

(7) “It is written (1 Tim 5:8): “If any man have not care of his own and especially of those of his house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” Now the inward affection of charity ought to correspond to the outward effect. Therefore charity regards those who are nearer to us before those who are better.”

“Consequently this very act of loving someone because he is akin or connected with us, or because he is a fellow-countryman or for any like reason that is referable to the end of charity, can be commanded by charity, so that, out of charity both eliciting and commanding, we love in more ways those who are more nearly connected with us.”

Ender

 

[RachelsAlumni]

I am neither giving up my job, nor anyone else’s.

Principled Immigration
by Mary Ann Glendon
Copyright (c) 2006 First Things (June/July 2006).

An affluent society that, for whatever reason, does not welcome babies is going to have to learn to welcome immigrants if it hopes to maintain its economic vigor and its commitments to the health and welfare of its population. The issue is not who will do jobs that Americans don’t want. The issue is who will fill the ranks of a labor force that the retiring generation failed to replenish.

That, however, is besides my whole point. I would still be obligated to love my neighbor & welcome the stranger regardless of whether or not the particular geographical/political land mass I am a resident of in my earthly sojourn needed their labor or not. To only welcome them out of need would not satisfy the Lord’s command.

if you love them that love you, what reward shall you have?
do not even the publicans this?

In response to the post regarding the prudential judgment/opinion of Aquinas (assuming it was St. Thomas Aquinas since no link was given ) I prefer to quote the words of my Lord, Jesus Christ as recorded in the Gospel:

Luke Chapter 6
… I say to you that hear: Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you. 28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them that calumniate you. 29 And to him that striketh thee on the one cheek, offer also the other. And him that taketh away from thee thy cloak, forbid not to take thy coat also. 30 Give to every one that asketh thee, and of him that taketh away thy goods, ask them not again.

31 And as you would that men should do to you, do you also to them in like manner. 32 And if you love them that love you, what thanks are to you? for sinners also love those that love them. 33 And if you do good to them who do good to you, what thanks are to you? for sinners also do this. 34 And if you lend to them of whom you hope to receive, what thanks are to you? for sinners also lend to sinners, for to receive as much. 35 But love ye your enemies: do good, and lend, hoping for nothing thereby: and your reward shall be great, and you shall be the sons of the Highest; for he is kind to the unthankful, and to the evil.

Matthew Chapter 5
43 You have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thy enemy. 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: 45 That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust.

46 For if you love them that love you, what reward shall you have? do not even the publicans this? 47 And if you salute your brethren only, what do you more? do not also the heathens this? 48 Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[pnewton]

You really ought to at least acknowledge my argument even if you don’t agree with it.

You are right. I do not agree with it. The Church does not take money from anyone, so I think you have no point. All donations are voluntary. Helping this family and the expense of that family is not taking from anyone and has no moral component.

 

[pnewton]

This is surely how it is presented: charity for all … love one another … group hug … kumbaya,

The first two are commands of Jesus. The second two no one really says and are empty rhetoric.

 

[saayra]

The Church does not take money from anyone, so I think you have no point. All donations are voluntary. Helping this family and the expense of that family is not taking from anyone and has no moral component.

I don’t understand what you mean about taking having not moral component.

The Church does not have unlimited funds. She must choose where to apply those voluntary offerings. As the needy increase, the level of aid deteriorates. This also applies to any humanitarian organization and to government programs.

At this rate, this so-called “affluent” society cannot remain so overflowing in abundance as some believe. We are a nation headed for socialism which is being abandoned by many of the countries who have found its ideals lacking. In this respect, history is the best teacher.

 

[pnewton]

At this rate, this so-called “affluent” society cannot remain so overflowing in abundance as some believe. We are a nation headed for socialism which is being abandoned by many of the countries who have found its ideals lacking. In this respect, history is the best teacher.

Are you saying that American citizen’s have an entitlement to help first, or we need to protect our affluence? What about just helping the most needy first?

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

It is not enough to say “let’s help everyone”. Illegal immigration causes real harm and aiding illegals has a twofold effect. The fact that our only intent is to help those in need does not excuse us from responsibility for making a bad situation worse.

America has the right to pass laws against immigration to protect the living standards of its people, and Mexicans have the right to try to evade those laws.

 

[Ender]

I am neither giving up my job, nor anyone else’s.

The job an illegal takes is one less job available for one of our fellow citizens; to the extent that you facilitate the presence of illegals you also facilitate the loss of jobs for Americans. There is no such thing as a job Americans will not do although there are a lot of jobs they won’t do at the wages being offered, wages that are artificially held down because of the number of illegals interested in the same job.

In response to the post regarding the prudential judgment/opinion of Aquinas (assuming it was St. Thomas Aquinas since no link was given ) I prefer to quote the words of my Lord, Jesus Christ as recorded in the Gospel:

Your preference is not between St. Thomas and Christ but between St. Thomas and yourself. Do you seriously believe the greatest theologian in the 2000 year history of the Church was unfamiliar with the gospels or that his understanding of them was inferior to yours?

Ender

 

[saayra]

Are you saying that American citizen’s have an entitlement to help first, or we need to protect our affluence? What about just helping the most needy first?

What I said was that there isn’t an endless supply of goods and services. When the needy outnumber the people who are able to contribute the structure of society deteriorates.

For example, I am a retired person on a fixed income. I can contribute only so much to outreach. I have an obligation to pay my bills first or I will be turned into collections and have my utilities turned off. I see need all around me. I can put what I have budgeted into the regular collection plate and into the monthly outreach collection. Frequently the Church makes special requests for additional funds. If I am going to respond to those other missions or crises and to the regular collections I will be giving less to some than they have previously depended on. If I am an idiot, I can give far beyond what I can afford. Then I can get in line and ask for assistance. Does this make sense?

A working person or an especially wealthy one would be faced with the same dilemma. You give from what you have and stop giving when the funds are gone.

 

[RachelsAlumni]

The job an illegal takes is one less job available for one of our fellow citizens…

Not in a developed countries where we’ve been contracepting our fellow citizens away. I agree more with Professor Mary Ann Glendon, Learned Hand Professor of Law at Harvard, quoted previously.

Your preference is not between St. Thomas and Christ but between St. Thomas and yourself. Do you seriously believe the greatest theologian in the 2000 year history of the Church was unfamiliar with the gospels or that his understanding of them was inferior to yours?

I did not offer an “understanding of gospels”, I simply cut & pasted the actual scripture (and provided links )

I find the Word of God contained in the Gospel superior to the prudential opinion of a man, even a saintly man.

Now are you suggesting that there is a different understanding or contradiction between St. Thomas Aquinas and the the Gospel that I cut & pasted?

Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you. 28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them that calumniate you. 29 And to him that striketh thee on the one cheek, offer also the other. And him that taketh away from thee thy cloak, forbid not to take thy coat also. 30 Give to every one that asketh thee, and of him that taketh away thy goods, ask them not again.

31 And as you would that men should do to you, do you also to them in like manner. 32 And if you love them that love you, what thanks are to you? for sinners also love those that love them.

Then perhaps it is your understanding of both the Gospel and St. Thomas Aquinas that is being questioned here.

 

[RachelsAlumni]

If I am an idiot, I can give far beyond what I can afford. Then I can get in line and ask for assistance. Does this make sense?

A working person or an especially wealthy one would be faced with the same dilemma. You give from what you have and stop giving when the funds are gone.

I don’t think Our Lord would consider you an idiot for giving your all:

Mark 12
41 And Jesus sitting over against the treasury, beheld how the people cast money into the treasury, and many that were rich cast in much. 42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she cast in two mites, which make a farthing. 43 And calling his disciples together, he saith to them: Amen I say to you, this poor widow hath cast in more than all they who have cast into the treasury. 44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want cast in all she had, even her whole living.