"Illegal" immigration

[pjn6444]

I have seen quite a few posts about illegal immigration. I have frequently heard people say that they are taking “our” jobs. First, if you are losing your job to a foreign unskilled worker, you must be pretty bad at your job. Second, you will counter to that argument with something along the lines of “they will work for less than minimum wage, that is why they get my job” Ok, these people claim to be good Americans who love liberty, protecting our country from foreigners, etc. Well, anyone should know that minimum wage is a construct of Socialists and Communists. Minimum wage has no place in a FREE market. Third, in a free market an employer should be able to hire whoever he feels. Fourth, it is unjust to pass laws which prevent impoverished people from seeking honest employment.
Overall, anyone who is against immigrants from Mexico and Latin America is against the ideals of American Liberty and free market, and against the ideals of Catholic duty. If you really love something you would want someone else to be able to have that also. If you love America you would want others to be able to come here. As if you love God you want others to know Him. If you want to prevent people from coming to America you do not love America, you only selfishly hoard what this country can give you. Also, if after this you say, “well I am not against people coming here legally, just illegally” well, if you are poor you can not afford the expensive and lengthy process to get here. And amongst you anti-immigrant people, how many of you would work for a dollar an hour for 18 hour days and still send most of the money to your mother and your family?

 

[mainusch]

Here’s the problem. As a nation we can’t just have totally free, uncontrolled borders. There are people who are very intent on doing this country (the USA) great harm, and cannot be allowed to come and go at will, without anyone’s knowledge. We have absolutely no choice but to have some degree of control over who comes and goes. So we have borders and immigration officers and a set of rules and regulations as to who is allowed to cross the border. It is very flawed, and needs to be fixed, but it is necessary.

A lot of people want to come into this country for a very wide variety of reasons. If you try to cross into the country from Mexico in particular, there’s quite a line at the border. If you have documentation that you are a U.S. citizen, or have what we consider legitimate reason to come in, then fine, after a fairly short wait in line, you’re waved across. If, however, you can’t produce some kind of evidence that you have prior authorization or legitimate business, you’ll have to work on getting it before we can let you come in. Again we can not just let people come and go without knowing, and being comfortable with their situation. Particularly in a post 9/11 world, we must be careful.

Some people wait in this line, and fill out the forms, and cooperate with the authorities in order to gain entry. Unfortunately, this usually takes a long time, and a lot of effort.

Others evidently do not believe the US government has the right to exert any kind of authority, and they leave the line, and sneak across the border, demonstrating a total disregard for the American legal system.

So we’re looking at two groups here. Those who demonstrate a willingness to work within our system, and those who demonstrate contempt for it. It is only the latter group we are talking about when we speak of “illegal aliens.” We need to be working on making it more efficient for the former, law-abiding group to gain entry. But we’re not. We’re stuck arguing about what to do about those who don’t care about our laws.

The jobs problem is further complicated. Illegal aliens who become employed in the US are cheaper for employers, not merely because they will usually work for less, but because the employer doesn’t need to pay payroll taxes for them. The services our government provides are all paid for by US taxpayers. When a large group of people who have already demonstrated total contempt for the US legal system then demand medicare and welfare services from the government, having not paid a dime into the system, the burden shifts to those who are obeying the law. On an individual basis, it is not obvious how this damages our economy, but when viewed on a macroscopic scale, the damage is significant.

Although there are some people who object to (all) immigration for all the wrong reasons, there is very legitimate reason to be opposed to the total amnesty for those who flout our laws that has very recently been debated in our congress.

Remember the people waiting in line to cross the border? They are wading through all the red tape, and still have to wait, and wait, and wait? How can we expect them to keep waiting, when their law-breaking counterparts have shown them how to short-circuit the whole system? I guess by relying on their honor. If they are Christians, they will do the right thing. Now let us do the right thing, and help those who need to come into this country, for whatever legitimate reason, do it legally.

 

[pjn6444]

In response. First, to your comment on a need for secure borders. Our border to the north with Canada is the largest undefended border in the world. People that do harm to America usually come through that border, because it is easier. Also, a lot of Mexican workers who don’t come here through the prescribed methods do NOT come here to cheat social security, welfare, etc. They are coming here for jobs. Which is more than I can say for some of our own citizens who DO cheat the government.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I have seen quite a few posts about illegal immigration. I have frequently heard people say that they are taking “our” jobs. First, if you are losing your job to a foreign unskilled worker, you must be pretty bad at your job. Second, you will counter to that argument with something along the lines of “they will work for less than minimum wage, that is why they get my job” Ok, these people claim to be good Americans who love liberty, protecting our country from foreigners, etc. Well, anyone should know that minimum wage is a construct of Socialists and Communists. Minimum wage has no place in a FREE market. Third, in a free market an employer should be able to hire whoever he feels. Fourth, it is unjust to pass laws which prevent impoverished people from seeking honest employment.
Overall, anyone who is against immigrants from Mexico and Latin America is against the ideals of American Liberty and free market, and against the ideals of Catholic duty. If you really love something you would want someone else to be able to have that also. If you love America you would want others to be able to come here. As if you love God you want others to know Him. If you want to prevent people from coming to America you do not love America, you only selfishly hoard what this country can give you. Also, if after this you say, “well I am not against people coming here legally, just illegally” well, if you are poor you can not afford the expensive and lengthy process to get here. And amongst you anti-immigrant people, how many of you would work for a dollar an hour for 18 hour days and still send most of the money to your mother and your family?

Sounds to me like you’re arguing with yourself.

 

[icxc_nika]

Fourth, it is unjust to pass laws which prevent impoverished people from seeking honest employment.
Overall, anyone who is against immigrants from Mexico and Latin America is against the ideals of American Liberty and free market, and against the ideals of Catholic duty. If you really love something you would want someone else to be able to have that also. If you love America you would want others to be able to come here. As if you love God you want others to know Him. If you want to prevent people from coming to America you do not love America, you only selfishly hoard what this country can give you. Also, if after this you say, “well I am not against people coming here legally, just illegally” well, if you are poor you can not afford the expensive and lengthy process to get here. And amongst you anti-immigrant people, how many of you would work for a dollar an hour for 18 hour days and still send most of the money to your mother and your family?

in response. First, to your comment on a need for secure borders. Our border to the north with Canada is the largest undefended border in the world. People that do harm to America usually come through that border, because it is easier. Also, a lot of Mexican workers who don’t come here through the prescribed methods do NOT come here to cheat social security, welfare, etc. They are coming here for jobs. Which is more than I can say for some of our own citizens who DO cheat the government.

These points are so foolish that it is mesmorizing to me to see how good honest people can be brainwashed in this fashion.:hypno:

I have not spent any time in any other forums, or reading posts on this matter, but it is really rather simple.

To start with the most important point:

This country only has so many resources, jobs, etc.

Do you really think it possible that we take into this country every single poor guy or gal that is out there that wnts to come here to “work” ??

The fact of the matter is that we have over 4.5 billion people on earth that live in poverty. Should we all take them in here?? Should we simply e prejudice and only tke in the latinos that are next door, or the asians that make it over to mexico or canada somehow??

Ask yourself this my friend:
What does the cold, vast emptiness of Canada have that Mexico does not??
Why is it that Canadians live the same lifestyle that most Americans enjoy, but Mexican do not.

The answer is simple… abject corruption in government. The same thing that almost all impovershed countries enjoy. True there is corruption in all governments, but unless you have lived in these places, you don’t even have a clue of what corruption is.

Mexico and Canada have the same natural resources, the same access to waterways, and excellent land. The only difference is that Mexico should be 100x the powerhouse canada is, because of the climate, and it’s ability to draw people to it.

Why does mexico suck? Because the people have ultimately allowed the government to be corrupt. Part of that corruption is allowing the poorest of the poor to infiltrate your country, and bring down the wages for the less skilled, and poorer americans.

The thing that bothers me so much about this OP is the unintended holier than thou attitude that people who share this mindset have.
They somehow believe that they care about people more than myself, or people who believe that we need to lock our homes and borders.

If you honestly cared about these people, you would do everything possible to get rid of the cancer in mexico, and all the other corrupt countries in the world that allow 1% of the people to have any privalges.

Fix the government in mexico, and you will have the biggest economic boom in all the world. This will solve te economic woes of all the people in Latin America, and elsewhere.

You somehow also beleive that your lifestyle is better than theirs . You must somehow beleive that poverty is always a bad thing.

Keep in mind that the church teaches that poverty is a blessing. Many more poor impovershed catholics in Mexico turn to God all the time vs. the well fed, fat bellied, sports car driving neighbors up north… who have no use for God, and are constantly debating to get rid of him in all respects from our lives.

Peace be with you.

 

[Maxply]

We need a Marshall Plan for Mexico; it’s a rich country, but it needs working on.

Illegal is illegal in my book, and a nation must have control of its borders and control over its citizenship requirements and social dispensations.

I’m a charitably-hearted guy, but the advocates for the illegals just tax my charity (and patience!) way too much! They have no right to citizenship in the US, just as I have no right to, say, German citizenship or Ethiopian citizenship.

What’s sad to see is the approach: we demand something, so we deserve to get it!

Also. . . YOU are benefitting from their exploitation! Remember that the next time you eat a grape!

 

[vern_humphrey]

We need a Marshall Plan for Mexico; it’s a rich country, but it needs working on.

The Marshall Plan was an economic plan. Mexico has the economic wherewithal to improve itself. It lacks the political institutions and tradition of democracy.

We have sent money to many a country with corrupt government and accomplished nothing, other than to rivit the chains more firmly on the people, since the corrupt governments used the money to strengthen their control.

Illegal is illegal in my book, and a nation must have control of its borders and control over its citizenship requirements and social dispensations.

I’m a charitably-hearted guy, but the advocates for the illegals just tax my charity (and patience!) way too much! They have no right to citizenship in the US, just as I have no right to, say, German citizenship or Ethiopian citizenship.

What’s sad to see is the approach: we demand something, so we deserve to get it!

Also. . . YOU are benefitting from their exploitation! Remember that the next time you eat a grape!

Yes – with the best will in the world, we have failed to aid our own poor and at the same time created a huge labor black market of exploited illegals. And it cost us trillions of dollars.

 

[RobDH]

Overall, anyone who is against immigrants from Mexico and Latin America is against the ideals of American Liberty and free market, and against the ideals of Catholic duty.

And what has this to do with illegal immigration?

You seem to have no concept of the Church’s view on illegal immigration.

For instance…

“Illegal immigration should be prevented, but it is also essential to combat vigorously the criminal activities which exploit illegal immigrants. The most appropriate choice, which will yield consistent and long-lasting results is that of international co-operation which aims to foster political stability and to eliminate underdevelopment. The present economic and social imbalance, which to a large extent encourages the migratory flow, should not be seen as something inevitable, but as a challenge to the human race’s sense of responsibility.”

And where does this come from you ask?
Message of Pope John Paul II for World Migration Day, 1996

Should current US immigration laws be enforced on all borders?
Yes!

Is the current US immigration process flawed and sometimes grossly unfair?
Yes!

Should the current process be reformed?
Absolutely!

Is the current administration’s plan (which is still failing in congress) a fair, balanced solution to the issue?
No!

Should illegal immigrants from any country be rewarded with amnesty?
Not automatically across the board!

In keeping with this statement from the above mentioned Papal message…

“In the search for a solution to the problem of migration in general and illegal migrants in particular, the attitude of the host society has an important role to play. In this perspective, it is very important that public opinion be properly informed about the true situation in the migrants’ country of origin, about the tragedies involving them and the possible risks of returning. The poverty and misfortune with which immigrants are stricken are yet another reason for coming generously to their aid.”

I think you will find most Catholics, as well as a majority of Americans, would agree with my analysis of the situation.

 

[alfonsg]

In response. First, to your comment on a need for secure borders. Our border to the north with Canada is the largest undefended border in the world. People that do harm to America usually come through that border, because it is easier. Also, a lot of Mexican workers who don’t come here through the prescribed methods do NOT come here to cheat social security, welfare, etc. They are coming here for jobs. Which is more than I can say for some of our own citizens who DO cheat the government.

My grandparents came into this country legally, way before I was born. My grandfather worked for the SantaFe railroad driving the spikes that hold the rails down. He did this all day long for 25 years and retired. My grandmother was a stay at home mom and took care of her seven children.

They lived in this country which they greatly respected, and they died in this country and they are buried in this country. Never once did they complain about where they were or how they were treated (which was not so good in those days). They missed their homeland, but they were so happy to be in the United States.

My grandmother understood very little english and when she heard about the Apollo 13 mission, she prayed the rosary every night for those Americans, that she didn’t even know.

You would never catch either of my grandparents out on the street waving the Mexican flag and protesting. They were happy here and loved America and what this great country has to offer.
In other words, my grandparents were greatfull.

So when I see immigrants waving their Mexican flags in the US, I wonder why are you here if you don’t like the way things are? I understand the wage situation between there and here, but why the “I deserve more!” attitude, when they aren’t even US citizens? Do it the right way. Do the paper work. Do what you need to do to get into the country, then you can protest. Don’t jump the fence or swim the river and get here and yell give me this or give me that as if the US owes you something.

I was one of the lucky ones. I was born here and here I will stay until my last days on earth. I am proud to be an American and I love this country and wouldn’t trade for any other in the world. I am so tired of seeing people not wanting to work for what they want, wanting it handed to them.

I pray all immagrents find what they need, for themselves and their families, but without all the pushing, shoving, and the anger.