Illicit baptism?

[Nunez117]

Hi.

I’m hoping for some clarification regarding the performing of a baptism at home (in particular one performed against the parents wishes). I’ll start with some background first. My wife was raised Catholic and I was raised Protestant. We both were baptised as children and took our first communion as teenagers. We were married in my wife’s native Brazil in a Catholic ceremony. However since then I have lost my faith completely and identify as an atheist and my wife is now at best an agnostic. Neither of us have had anything to do with the church for nearly 10 years.

We visited Brazil with our young son not long ago and my wife told me there would be a small ceremony at her aunts house to ‘welcome our son into the family’. It turned out to be a ‘baptismo em casa’ as the Brazilians call it and my wife’s grandmother performed a baptism. This was completely against my wishes and my wife said she only consented out of respect for her elderly grandmother. To my knowledge the correct words were used and holy water was poured onto my sons forehead.

My question is this: has my son been legitimately baptised? I really don’t mind if he has or not but one day he may choose to become a Catholic (or indeed follow any of the 3000 religions in recorded history). If he has then will he need to be baptised again? What do I tell him when he grows up? He doesn’t have a baptism certificate so if he marries a Catholic woman in a Catholic ceremony how will he prove he was baptised? (I was required to show a certificate before I could marry). I also don’t even know who the godparents are!

Many thanks for any clarification you can provide.

 

[Catholic1954]

I am sorry that this was done against your wishes or consent, but what’s done is done. Yes, your son is now baptized and will never need to be rebaptized. The parish where this was done should be notified and a certificate issued for future reference. When he is older, tell him what happened and keep the certificate in a safe place, in case a question about his baptism ever comes up.

 

[Nunez117]

I am sorry that this was done against your wishes or consent, but what’s done is done. Yes, your son is now baptized and will never need to be rebaptized. The parish where this was done should be notified and a certificate issued for future reference. When he is older, tell him what happened and keep the certificate in a safe place, in case a question about his baptism ever comes up.

Many thanks for the reply. I’ll have to speak to the local parish in his mothers hometown in the south of Brazil then. I’m not particularly bothered about him being baptised - it was important for his family to have it done and it has made them happy. I am going to let my son choose his own path, be it Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist or atheist. It’s good to know that he won’t need a ceremony to get baptised if he chooses to follow Catholocism though.

Many thanks.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Since this baptism was done in Brazil it may make it difficult to notify the parish as was suggested. (I’m assuming you’re in the US.) You may want to talk with the pastor at your local parish just to get it registered so that if your son does wish to practice Catholicism he won’t have any problems.

It’s too bad that your wife’s grandmother took this role on for herself. It’s not supposed to be done this way!

 

[Nunez117]

Since this baptism was done in Brazil it may make it difficult to notify the parish as was suggested. (I’m assuming you’re in the US.) You may want to talk with the pastor at your local parish just to get it registered so that if your son does wish to practice Catholicism he won’t have any problems.

It’s too bad that your wife’s grandmother took this role on for herself. It’s not supposed to be done this way!

I’m actually in London the the UK. I agree this isn’t the way it should have been done. I have candles, gifts, a bible and photos and memories of both my baptism and confirmation. If I wanted my child baptised or if he chooses it as an adult I would wish him the same. He will never have that now.

 

[CatholicRaven]

-]When you were married, or perhaps in preparation, weren’t you asked if you understood that your wife is supposed to be raising any children in the faith?/-] (ETA: I was thinking you would know she would have been planning to baptize your son, but I missed that you said you both haven’t been part of the Church for 10 years, sorry.) Of course, your wife still should have consulted you first before baptizing, and I’m sorry that she didn’t. However, I believe that only one parent’s consent is required for baptism, so it sounds like it’s valid.

Because of the details of the situation, I could be wrong, so I would suggest your wife (and you, if you like) contact the priest at the parish or diocese where the child was baptized and inform him of the situation. Your wife may need to provide pictures, or statements from witnesses/Godparents about the ceremony or something similar, but in any case, the priest will be able to clarify about what should be done at this point as far as records, etc.

I assume your wife’s family members were trying to do the right thing for your son… but deception is definitely not the best way to go about baptizing a child. I hope your wife and her family come to realize that.

 

[1ke]

My question is this: has my son been legitimately baptised?

Yes.

I really don’t mind if he has or not but one day he may choose to become a Catholic

Since he’s been baptized, he actually already is a Catholic. I would suggest that the grandmother report her actions to the parish priest so that the baptism can be recorded. This will save much headache in the future if your son ever needs proof of his baptism. Witnesses die, so it’s best she tell her priest now.

(

If he has then will he need to be baptised again?

No, and indeed cannot be baptized again. Although there are some non-Catholic denominations that might attempt to “rebaptize” him. Also, I again urge the grandmother (or you) to get the baptism properly recorded so that if your son ever wants to become a Catholic or marry a Catholic, this does not become a big ol’ issue.

What do I tell him when he grows up? He doesn’t have a baptism certificate so if he marries a Catholic woman in a Catholic ceremony how will he prove he was baptised? (I was required to show a certificate before I could marry). I also don’t even know who the godparents are!

yes. So, grandma needs to get it recorded. It will save TONS of headaches later. I deal with sacramental records, so I can tell you there is nothing worse than a freaked out bride who can’t get her paperwork in order.

When your son is old enough to understand you can simply tell him he was baptized by his grandmother.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

What caused you to lose your faith?

 

[thistle]

Hi.

I’m hoping for some clarification regarding the performing of a baptism at home (in particular one performed against the parents wishes). I’ll start with some background first. My wife was raised Catholic and I was raised Protestant. We both were baptised as children and took our first communion as teenagers. We were married in my wife’s native Brazil in a Catholic ceremony. However since then I have lost my faith completely and identify as an atheist and my wife is now at best an agnostic. Neither of us have had anything to do with the church for nearly 10 years.

We visited Brazil with our young son not long ago and my wife told me there would be a small ceremony at her aunts house to ‘welcome our son into the family’. It turned out to be a ‘baptismo em casa’ as the Brazilians call it and my wife’s grandmother performed a baptism. This was completely against my wishes and my wife said she only consented out of respect for her elderly grandmother. To my knowledge the correct words were used and holy water was poured onto my sons forehead.

My question is this: has my son been legitimately baptised? I really don’t mind if he has or not but one day he may choose to become a Catholic (or indeed follow any of the 3000 religions in recorded history). If he has then will he need to be baptised again? What do I tell him when he grows up? He doesn’t have a baptism certificate so if he marries a Catholic woman in a Catholic ceremony how will he prove he was baptised? (I was required to show a certificate before I could marry). I also don’t even know who the godparents are!

Many thanks for any clarification you can provide.

Baptism by anyone who is not a priest is only permitted in cases of imminent death and is not permitted in normal circumstances.
Baptism in the home is not permitted unless permission has been given by the local priest which seems unlikely as no priest is performing the baptism.
This is not as clear cut as people might think, even though the Catholic parent gave consent.

If you want clarification you should really talk to a priest.

 

[twf]

What your grandmother-in-law did was definitely illicit…what she did was, on her part, objectively sinful (I am sure her intentions were good, so I cannot say that she is culpable - I am speaking in objective terms). That being said, it sounds like it was a valid baptism. As others have noted it needs to be recorded by the local parish. The priest will require testimonies from witnesses. Sometimes sworn affidavits are needed when a baptism is performed outside the Church. If it isn’t properly recorded now, and there are no living witnesses, he would likely be conditionally baptized later if he chose to be reconciled with the Church.

 

[Gertabelle]

Baptism by anyone who is not a priest is only permitted in cases of imminent death and is not permitted in normal circumstances.
Baptism in the home is not permitted unless permission has been given by the local priest which seems unlikely as no priest is performing the baptism.
This is not as clear cut as people might think, even though the Catholic parent gave consent.

If you want clarification you should really talk to a priest.

The baptism may or may not have been illicit – we don’t know if grandma’s parish priest gave his permission for what may even be a common practice in that culture.

Whether illicit or not, the baptism is valid – proper matter, proper form, clear intent to confer the sacrament by the grandmother.

 

[Padres1969]

I’m actually in London the the UK. I agree this isn’t the way it should have been done. I have candles, gifts, a bible and photos and memories of both my baptism and confirmation. If I wanted my child baptised or if he chooses it as an adult I would wish him the same. He will never have that now.

Well he could if it’s not properly recorded in the Parish and/or if he’s not made aware of it later in life, assuming there wasn’t some defect to begin with. As you say you’re letting him choose his own path. If he does choose to become a Catholic later in life, given the ambiguity, deception and sin surrounding his “baptism” in Brazil he could always be conditionally baptized at the later date just to be on the safe side. And added bonus he’d get all those things you regret his deception “baptism” lacked.

Or he may choose a different path and what happened in Brazil won’t be relevant.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

I am trying not to be judgmental toward the family members here, but for the sake of those who might be reading this, we should review what the Church teaches. Except when in danger of death, baptisms should only be done by those authorized by the Church, ordinarily a pastor. Infants are ordinarily only baptized when there is a “founded hope” that the child will be raised in the Catholic faith. In this case, the mother gave permission for the baptism but it seems that she did not promise to raise the child in the faith. The baptism is valid, but the adults involved acted illicitly.

Code of Canon Law:
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P2X.HTM

Canon 868 §1. For an infant to be baptized licitly:

1/ the parents or at least one of them or the person who legitimately takes their place must consent;

2/ there must be a founded hope that the infant will be brought up in the Catholic religion; if such hope is altogether lacking, the baptism is to be delayed according to the prescripts of particular law after the parents have been advised about the reason.

Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
INSTRUCTION ON INFANT BAPTISM
Pastoralis actio
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19801020_pastoralis_actio_en.html

 

[Padres1969]

I am trying not to be judgmental toward the family members here, but for the sake of those who might be reading this, we should review what the Church teaches. Except when in danger of death, baptisms should only be done by those authorized by the Church, ordinarily a pastor. Infants are ordinarily only baptized when there is a “founded hope” that the child will be raised in the Catholic faith. In this case, the mother gave permission for the baptism but it seems that she did not promise to raise the child in the faith. The baptism is valid, but the adults involved acted illicitly.

Code of Canon Law:
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P2X.HTM

Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
INSTRUCTION ON INFANT BAPTISM
Pastoralis actio
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19801020_pastoralis_actio_en.html

Yeah I don’t think anyone questions that this baptism was Illicit at the very least by Catholic standards since there was no danger of death. And there is no real hope the child will be raised Catholic at this time since as the OP stated he’s a former Protestant Atheist and his wife is a former Catholic agnostic. The baptism clearly should not have occurred (assuming a baptism occurred at all since we’re not sure if there was some defect in the baptism as performed (which is one of the many reasons why non-clergy shouldn’t be performing baptisms absent extraordinary circumstances))

 

[Tommy999]

Yeah I don’t think anyone questions that this baptism was Illicit at the very least by Catholic standards since there was no danger of death. And there is no real hope the child will be raised Catholic at this time since as the OP stated he’s a former Protestant Atheist and his wife is a former Catholic agnostic. The baptism clearly should not have occurred (assuming a baptism occurred at all since we’re not sure if there was some defect in the baptism as performed (which is one of the many reasons why non-clergy shouldn’t be performing baptisms absent extraordinary circumstances))

Agreed. I would think that an ordained priest would be needed unless the person is in danger of death and there is no priest around.

Otherwise, what would prevent any parent or grandparent from baptizing their kids or grandkids? Or why wouldn’t the following scenario be a valid baptism? My two boys loved this movie growing up and this scene came to mind when I read this post. No disrespect intended to anyone-- just wanted to interject a little levity.

youtube.com/watch?v=GL2Cq0jxq8A

 

[babochka]

Agreed. I would think that an ordained priest would be needed unless the person is in danger of death and there is no priest around.

Otherwise, what would prevent any parent or grandparent from baptizing their kids or grandkids? Or why wouldn’t the following scenario be a valid baptism? My two boys loved this movie growing up and this scene came to mind when I read this post. No disrespect intended to anyone-- just wanted to interject a little levity.

youtube.com/watch?v=GL2Cq0jxq8A

According to Catholic teaching, there is no question as to the validity of the baptism. In reality, I think if a person wanted to join the Catholic Church and came to the priest with a tale from family lore that he or she had been baptized by a grandmother as a child, and there was no recording in the local parish, that person would be conditionally baptized. I think there are probably a great many well-meaning grandparents who, fearing for their grandchildren’s souls, have baptized the grandchildren, unbeknownst to anyone but God.

The baptism in the video be invalid because it was done without the consent of the person being baptized (or someone with the authority to give consent) and was not done in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[Phemie]

Agreed. I would think that an ordained priest would be needed unless the person is in danger of death and there is no priest around.

Otherwise, what would prevent any parent or grandparent from baptizing their kids or grandkids? Or why wouldn’t the following scenario be a valid baptism? My two boys loved this movie growing up and this scene came to mind when I read this post. No disrespect intended to anyone-- just wanted to interject a little levity.

youtube.com/watch?v=GL2Cq0jxq8A

Grandparents have been known to baptize their grandchildren if they think their kids won’t. One priest told me he was surprised that I hadn’t baptized mine yet. Hard as it is to accept that they are not baptized, I follow rules and the rule says DON’T. All bets are off if they become sick.

Former Pastor told me about a dilema he had where a parishioner told him in confession that she had baptized her grandchild. He was greatly upset because he couldn’t record it. “It’s just a big mess!” said he.

 

[Padres1969]

Grandparents have been known to baptize their grandchildren if they think their kids won’t. One priest told me he was surprised that I hadn’t baptized mine yet. Hard as it is to accept that they are not baptized, I follow rules and the rule says DON’T. All bets are off if they become sick.

Former Pastor told me about a dilema he had where a parishioner told him in confession that she had baptized her grandchild. He was greatly upset because he couldn’t record it. “It’s just a big mess!” said he.

Talk about one of the most disrespectful and deceitful things a parent can do. My parents would never try that on my daughter even if I wasn’t already planning to have her baptized myself. But if they tried it I’d likely never speak to them again. A child’s religious upbringing is primarily the responsibility of their parents. Others only have the right to interject with the parents consent (or if they’re raising the child in lieu of the parents) to my mind.

And why did your former pastor have a dilemma? He told you about the baptism that was revealed during confession but he wouldn’t record it? Seems an odd place to draw the line on who he tells things he’s heard in confession

 

[Phemie]

Talk about one of the most disrespectful and deceitful things a parent can do. My parents would never try that on my daughter even if I wasn’t already planning to have her baptized myself. But if they tried it I’d likely never speak to them again. A child’s religious upbringing is primarily the responsibility of their parents. Others only have the right to interject with the parents consent (or if they’re raising the child in lieu of the parents) to my mind.

And why did your former pastor have a dilemma? He told you about the baptism that was revealed during confession but he wouldn’t record it? Seems an odd place to draw the line on who he tells things he’s heard in confession

To record it would identify her and that would violate the seal of confession. Nothing in his mention to me told me anything about what parish it was in, when it happened or who it was.
It was simply a mention that he had this dilema that he wished he didn’t.

This was said to me during a conversation we were having about the adult child of one of our parisioners who had asked to be baptized and become Catholic like her mother. As we were setting to prepare her for Baptism it came to light that her grandmother had baptized her long ago and had in fact been taking her to receive Communion whenever she was visiting without her mom. So instead of preparing her for Baptism we now only had to prepare her for Confirmation.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

Baptism by anyone who is not a priest is only permitted in cases of imminent death and is not permitted in normal circumstances.
Baptism in the home is not permitted unless permission has been given by the local priest which seems unlikely as no priest is performing the baptism.
This is not as clear cut as people might think, even though the Catholic parent gave consent.

If you want clarification you should really talk to a priest.

Surely deacons are likewise ordinary ministers of solemn Baptism. Ours does most of the Baptisms in our parish.