Illicit baptism?

[Phemie]

Surely deacons are likewise ordinary ministers of solemn Baptism. Ours does most of the Baptisms in our parish.

And with the situation in North America today it’s not rare to have lay people conferring Baptism because there are no priests to do so.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

http://https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse4.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.Mddb64ac68e550e51e0ab7c1bbb6ad5c4o0%26pid%3D15.1&f=1

 

[Vico]

Hi.

I’m hoping for some clarification regarding the performing of a baptism at home (in particular one performed against the parents wishes). I’ll start with some background first. My wife was raised Catholic and I was raised Protestant. We both were baptised as children and took our first communion as teenagers. We were married in my wife’s native Brazil in a Catholic ceremony. However since then I have lost my faith completely and identify as an atheist and my wife is now at best an agnostic. Neither of us have had anything to do with the church for nearly 10 years.

We visited Brazil with our young son not long ago and my wife told me there would be a small ceremony at her aunts house to ‘welcome our son into the family’. It turned out to be a ‘baptismo em casa’ as the Brazilians call it and my wife’s grandmother performed a baptism. This was completely against my wishes and my wife said she only consented out of respect for her elderly grandmother. To my knowledge the correct words were used and holy water was poured onto my sons forehead.

My question is this: has my son been legitimately baptised? I really don’t mind if he has or not but one day he may choose to become a Catholic (or indeed follow any of the 3000 religions in recorded history). If he has then will he need to be baptised again? What do I tell him when he grows up? He doesn’t have a baptism certificate so if he marries a Catholic woman in a Catholic ceremony how will he prove he was baptised? (I was required to show a certificate before I could marry). I also don’t even know who the godparents are!

Many thanks for any clarification you can provide.

Infant is through age 7.

Can. 867 §1. Parents are obliged to take care that infants are baptized in the first few weeks; as soon as possible after the birth or even before it, they are to go to the pastor to request the sacrament for their child and to be prepared properly for it.
§2. An infant in danger of death is to be baptized without delay.

Can. 868 §1. For an infant to be baptized licitly:

1/ the parents or at least one of them or the person who legitimately takes their place must consent;
2/ there must be a founded hope that the infant will be brought up in the Catholic religion; if such hope is altogether lacking, the baptism is to be delayed according to the prescripts of particular law after the parents have been advised about the reason.
§2. An infant of Catholic parents or even of non-Catholic parents is baptized licitly in danger of death even against the will of the parents.
​

Age 8 and later:

Can. 865 §1. For an adult to be baptized, the person must have manifested the intention to receive baptism, have been instructed sufficiently about the truths of the faith and Christian obligations, and have been tested in the Christian life through the catechumenate. The adult is also to be urged to have sorrow for personal sins.
§2. An adult in danger of death can be baptized if, having some knowledge of the principal truths of the faith, the person has manifested in any way at all the intention to receive baptism and promises to observe the commandments of the Christian religion.

Can. 866 Unless there is a grave reason to the contrary, an adult who is baptized is to be confirmed immediately after baptism and is to participate in the eucharistic celebration also by receiving communion

 

[violet123]

I do not know of you people realize this or if the pope realizes this, but babtism with water is an ancient binding spell that bins your soul to the earth and therfore you are bound from your soul ever leaving. Did people search out all things or did you simply just take a strange man’s word for it. I would rather wait to be babtized by the spirit of God rather than put mine and the lives of my children in a strange man’s hands that knows nothing about vibration and the universal waves of energy and how to work those energies for the safety and good of all. Oh the pope didn’t realize he was using ancient dark witch craft by babtized in water? Oh he must not have searched out all things add he was too in a hurry for his own self to be worshiped. Wierd he didn’t use all patience of all time in a vow of silence to the things of God until he searched out and knew all things before he even spoke? I wander why he only liked at one book and assumed he was born into the truth and was somehow a father to anyone. Wait he died have many similar traits to Satan. Wierd that Satan also babtized with water, but God only and only God babtizes in the spirit. God binds you to the heavens and Satan binds you to the earth. On a side note, the pope and the British Royalty have sent people to attack and torture me through NSA torture methods so that I cannot speak up on what the anti-Christ which are many add Satan and his seed have now multiplied greatly. I have The pope,the Government, the catholics and the British Royalty using the synthetic telepathy and torture weapons to electrocute me until blood poured out if my forehead then hypnotized me to look like Satan, (please someone help me as they are going to destroy all mankind and nobody will hear me) they remotely Tahoe me which I going other law suits online from them doing this to other people this is what Edward Snowden was trying to tell people. They use brainwashing through these microwave weapons and they cause stabbing pains all over your body while they laugh at you and then Kate Middleton claims I am princess Diana long lost daughter as a cover up when I an not related to her. My family are farmers and have always been the descendants of heaven. God’s of the wind are our name and the invisible God is my spirit that I walk in. They are planning to just save the elites and go underground and let every one else die and as they advisemethey day they don’t give a **** if all mankind is destroyed. The pope is the anti Christ. Him and his people are doing this to me and nobody will look intoitI can answer all spiritual things if someone would jusjust me and see if you and your families eternal soul mean anything at all to you.

 

[Padres1969]

I do not know of you people realize this or if the pope realizes this, but babtism with water is an ancient binding spell that bins your soul to the earth and therfore you are bound from your soul ever leaving. Did people search out all things or did you simply just take a strange man’s word for it. I would rather wait to be babtized by the spirit of God rather than put mine and the lives of my children in a strange man’s hands that knows nothing about vibration and the universal waves of energy and how to work those energies for the safety and good of all. Oh the pope didn’t realize he was using ancient dark witch craft by babtized in water? Oh he must not have searched out all things add he was too in a hurry for his own self to be worshiped. Wierd he didn’t use all patience of all time in a vow of silence to the things of God until he searched out and knew all things before he even spoke? I wander why he only liked at one book and assumed he was born into the truth and was somehow a father to anyone. Wait he died have many similar traits to Satan. Wierd that Satan also babtized with water, but God only and only God babtizes in the spirit. God binds you to the heavens and Satan binds you to the earth. On a side note, the pope and the British Royalty have sent people to attack and torture me through NSA torture methods so that I cannot speak up on what the anti-Christ which are many add Satan and his seed have now multiplied greatly. I have The pope,the Government, the catholics and the British Royalty using the synthetic telepathy and torture weapons to electrocute me until blood poured out if my forehead then hypnotized me to look like Satan, (please someone help me as they are going to destroy all mankind and nobody will hear me) they remotely Tahoe me which I going other law suits online from them doing this to other people this is what Edward Snowden was trying to tell people. They use brainwashing through these microwave weapons and they cause stabbing pains all over your body while they laugh at you and then Kate Middleton claims I am princess Diana long lost daughter as a cover up when I an not related to her. My family are farmers and have always been the descendants of heaven. God’s of the wind are our name and the invisible God is my spirit that I walk in. They are planning to just save the elites and go underground and let every one else die and as they advisemethey day they don’t give a **** if all mankind is destroyed. The pope is the anti Christ. Him and his people are doing this to me and nobody will look intoitI can answer all spiritual things if someone would jusjust me and see if you and your families eternal soul mean anything at all to you.

So I take it you’re not really Catholic?

 

[violet123]

So I take it you’re not really Catholic?

No, I do not put my trust in Satan and his followers. And a random man in the flesh who pretends to be the Holy Father on high. Even the Highest God of all would not lift her self up and have pride like this as all that is important to her is that the poor and suffering and imprisoned finally have rest and comfort. Only Satan puts up his image for all to see and then proclaims himself in the flesh to be God and a man does not give birth into new life. Only the Mother does that which was spoken of four millions of years until Satan a dark skinned man came along and changed the mother into a father and wrote a book than fooled everyone through the papal loweracy for thousands of years now. The only DNA that began in heaven is identical to God the Mother not Father. That is pure white skin without brown in it, blonde hair and light colored eyes. This was written for millions of years what the people of heaven looked like.Just because she gave a Jewish man a spirit and lifted his burdens off than took his suffering by becoming flesh does not mean it was a good thing for woman to come from the heavens where she had been forever and forever will be in order to Wow man get your flesh and bone? The angels and her were perfectly happy in the spirit before we traded man in order to save him! Then he boasts that he is God and changes all the hes in the bible to she.if people researched what I am saying instead of getting angry with me you will see I an trying to save you from the anti Christ pope. If your families ETERNAL life is important at all to anyone you will search out in history when suddenly the saviour changed from a woman to a man. Earth is the sperm and the fish ( Male) Heaven is the ovaries a set of circles like a pomegranate or honey comb. ( Female) just like the highest God and the angels. We gave this Jewish man a spirit then next thing I find out he .hangs his image up to be worshiped, really? This is interesting to me that the papal loweracy was able to get EVERYONE to worship Satan for thousands of years now. Everyone was filed including me when I should be the last one to be fooled by man. This shows you how heavy the darkness of his lies weighs upon us and clings to our souls like leeches. Remember the verse "Woman since you have done this there will be much pain in child birth? Yes, that’s right some she took the burdens of the husband as her own there is much pain in becoming flesh and then bringing the adopted children of the earth to new life. When does a man give birth and a baby cry Abba father? NEVER

 

[drforjc]

Baptism by anyone who is not a priest is only permitted in cases of imminent death and is not permitted in normal circumstances.
Baptism in the home is not permitted unless permission has been given by the local priest which seems unlikely as no priest is performing the baptism.
This is not as clear cut as people might think, even though the Catholic parent gave consent.

If you want clarification you should really talk to a priest.

Or deacon. I know that’s what you meant but just to avoid any confusion.

 

[Padres1969]

No, I do not put my trust in Satan and his followers. And a random man in the flesh who pretends to be the Holy Father on high. Even the Highest God of all would not lift her self up and have pride like this as all that is important to her is that the poor and suffering and imprisoned finally have rest and comfort. Only Satan puts up his image for all to see and then proclaims himself in the flesh to be God and a man does not give birth into new life. Only the Mother does that which was spoken of four millions of years until Satan a dark skinned man came along and changed the mother into a father and wrote a book than fooled everyone through the papal loweracy for thousands of years now. The only DNA that began in heaven is identical to God the Mother not Father. That is pure white skin without brown in it, blonde hair and light colored eyes. This was written for millions of years what the people of heaven looked like.Just because she gave a Jewish man a spirit and lifted his burdens off than took his suffering by becoming flesh does not mean it was a good thing for woman to come from the heavens where she had been forever and forever will be in order to Wow man get your flesh and bone? The angels and her were perfectly happy in the spirit before we traded man in order to save him! Then he boasts that he is God and changes all the hes in the bible to she.if people researched what I am saying instead of getting angry with me you will see I an trying to save you from the anti Christ pope. If your families ETERNAL life is important at all to anyone you will search out in history when suddenly the saviour changed from a woman to a man. Earth is the sperm and the fish ( Male) Heaven is the ovaries a set of circles like a pomegranate or honey comb. ( Female) just like the highest God and the angels. We gave this Jewish man a spirit then next thing I find out he .hangs his image up to be worshiped, really? This is interesting to me that the papal loweracy was able to get EVERYONE to worship Satan for thousands of years now. Everyone was filed including me when I should be the last one to be fooled by man. This shows you how heavy the darkness of his lies weighs upon us and clings to our souls like leeches. Remember the verse "Woman since you have done this there will be much pain in child birth? Yes, that’s right some she took the burdens of the husband as her own there is much pain in becoming flesh and then bringing the adopted children of the earth to new life. When does a man give birth and a baby cry Abba father? NEVER

Then why do you list your religion as Catholic on your profile?

 

[Padres1969]

Infant is through age 7.

Can. 867 §1. Parents are obliged to take care that infants are baptized in the first few weeks; as soon as possible after the birth or even before it, they are to go to the pastor to request the sacrament for their child and to be prepared properly for it.
§2. An infant in danger of death is to be baptized without delay.

Can. 868 §1. For an infant to be baptized licitly:

1/ the parents or at least one of them or the person who legitimately takes their place must consent;
2/ there must be a founded hope that the infant will be brought up in the Catholic religion; if such hope is altogether lacking, the baptism is to be delayed according to the prescripts of particular law after the parents have been advised about the reason.
§2. An infant of Catholic parents or even of non-Catholic parents is baptized licitly in danger of death even against the will of the parents.
​

Age 8 and later:

Can. 865 §1. For an adult to be baptized, the person must have manifested the intention to receive baptism, have been instructed sufficiently about the truths of the faith and Christian obligations, and have been tested in the Christian life through the catechumenate. The adult is also to be urged to have sorrow for personal sins.
§2. An adult in danger of death can be baptized if, having some knowledge of the principal truths of the faith, the person has manifested in any way at all the intention to receive baptism and promises to observe the commandments of the Christian religion.

Can. 866 Unless there is a grave reason to the contrary, an adult who is baptized is to be confirmed immediately after baptism and is to participate in the eucharistic celebration also by receiving communion

Here’s a question I have had for a while… when and why did age 8 become the cutoff for when the church considers a person an “adult”?

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi.

I’m hoping for some clarification regarding the performing of a baptism at home (in particular one performed against the parents wishes). I’ll start with some background first. My wife was raised Catholic and I was raised Protestant. We both were baptised as children and took our first communion as teenagers. We were married in my wife’s native Brazil in a Catholic ceremony. However since then I have lost my faith completely and identify as an atheist and my wife is now at best an agnostic. Neither of us have had anything to do with the church for nearly 10 years.

We visited Brazil with our young son not long ago and my wife told me there would be a small ceremony at her aunts house to ‘welcome our son into the family’. It turned out to be a ‘baptismo em casa’ as the Brazilians call it and my wife’s grandmother performed a baptism. This was completely against my wishes and my wife said she only consented out of respect for her elderly grandmother. To my knowledge the correct words were used and holy water was poured onto my sons forehead.

My question is this: has my son been legitimately baptised? I really don’t mind if he has or not but one day he may choose to become a Catholic (or indeed follow any of the 3000 religions in recorded history). If he has then will he need to be baptised again? What do I tell him when he grows up? He doesn’t have a baptism certificate so if he marries a Catholic woman in a Catholic ceremony how will he prove he was baptised? (I was required to show a certificate before I could marry). I also don’t even know who the godparents are!

Many thanks for any clarification you can provide.

Ah, the Baptism is illicit. And it should not be done that way.

Without a Baptism certificate, your son will be in a no man’s land when he will be asked for proof in later life, as it was done for you when you got married.

Your best course of action now, since you want what is right/proper for your son, is to go to a parish priest, talk about it and see if a Baptism certificate can be issued. Not sure in other parishes but in some no less that a formal Baptism would be done for such certificate to be issued.

Providing either Baptism or Confirmation certificate is required nowadays by the Church for marriages, and other activities, like becoming sponsors for Baptism candidates.

 

[Vico]

Here’s a question I have had for a while… when and why did age 8 become the cutoff for when the church considers a person an “adult”?

I am sorry, I gave the wrong year, it is age seven. Under age seven are presumed not to have the use of reason, and has been used as such in the 1917 Latin Canon Law, and still in the 1983 Latin Canon Law.

CIC (Latin Canon Law, 1983)
Can. 97 §1. A person who has completed the eighteenth year of age has reached majority; below this age, a person is a minor.
§2. A minor before the completion of the seventh year is called an infant and is considered not responsible for oneself (non sui compos). With the completion of the seventh year, however, a minor is presumed to have the use of reason.
Can. 98 §1. A person who has reached majority has the full exercise of his or her rights
§2. A minor, in the exercise of his or her rights, remains subject to the authority of parents or guardians except in those matters in which minors are exempted from their authority by divine law or canon law. In what pertains to the appointment of guardians and their authority, the prescripts of civil law are to be observed unless canon law provides otherwise or unless in certain cases the diocesan bishop, for a just cause, has decided to provide for the matter through the appointment of another guardian.
.

Minors in Canon Law - Marquette University - Marquette Law Review, Vol. 49 Issue 1 (1965) by Thomas O Martin:

The period of minority is itself divided into three sections. Those under seven years of age are called infants, and are presumed not to have the use of reason.3 Those who are over seven, but have not yet attained puberty, are presumed to have the use of reason, i.e., to have certain capabilities, though they still require considerable protection. Puberty is considered to have been attained by a male at the completion of his fourteenth year, by a female at the completion of her twelfth.4 By this time the child has greater capabilities and needs less protection, though he or she still needs some until majority is attained.

[These refer to the 1917 Canon Law]
3 C 88, §3.
4 C. 88, §2.

 

[SecretGarden]

I’m sorry about what happened to you and your family. From what I know about Catholicism, this baptism sounds as if it would be invalid. The Catholic church has some strict criteria in which they would consider a baptism valid. It is so strict that it doesn’t recognize the baptism of several Protestant denominations therefore it your son’s baptism might fit into this category. Your best bet is to double check with your local priest but I’m willing to bet money that its invalid.

 

[Thorolfr]

I’m sorry about what happened to you and your family. From what I know about Catholicism, this baptism sounds as if it would be invalid. The Catholic church has some strict criteria in which they would consider a baptism valid. It is so strict that it doesn’t recognize the baptism of several Protestant denominations therefore it your son’s baptism might fit into this category. Your best bet is to double check with your local priest but I’m willing to bet money that its invalid.

My understanding is that the few Christian denominations whose baptism the Catholic Church does not recognize are those that don’t baptize in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It has to be a trinitarian baptism.

 

[Reuben_J]

My understanding is that the few Christian denominations whose baptism the Catholic Church does not recognize are those that don’t baptize in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It has to be a trinitarian baptism.

… And from the churches that we are familiar with as to be assured that the candidate has been baptised with right form and matter. These are usually the mainline churches.

For some other churches, depend on what they are, we may need to investigate to find out how their baptism was done.

Sometimes back, I had an Anglican staff who wanted to convert to Catholicism when he married his Catholic girlfriend. Our parish priest had no problem at all with him with his conversion. He didn’t have to be re-baptised in the Catholic Church. I was personally asked to go through with him the Catechism of the Catholic Church and he was confirmed as a Catholic during the Easter Vigil. My wife and I were the happy sponsors to witness their marriage later that year as Catholic couple instead of a mixed marriage.