Illicit Mass practices

[sirach2v4]

this thread

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=13904807#post13904807

in the ‘ask an apologist’ forum, answers one specific question about something done at Mass. Fr. Grodin says the particular sprinkling with water is “illicit…but not abusive.”

Well, that raises the more general question about what is the threshold for being abusive?

In my local parishes, I think there are quite a few illicit variations in the Mass. Maybe any specific one is merely illicit but not abusive, but taken together, when I see one thing after another, I think it’s abusive.

Somewhere in his writings, Pope Benedict XVI talks about this problem of a priest introducing novelties at Mass which distract from a lay person’s mental composure about participating in the Mass.

I was in one parish, where, as a concession to people going to work, the priest said a “turbo” Mass that was completed in about 20 minutes (maybe 35 lay people in attendance). For me, that’s almost too fast. At the opposite extreme, at my parish, there are so many songs, that I almost forget that I’m at Mass – the Mass seems to be squeezed in between the songs. There was this one sunday where I counted a total of 78 stanzas and refrains. One practical consequence for me is that my voice was getting hoarse from trying to sing all those verses – with the effect now that I don’t even pick up the song sheets (we don’t use books, they print the songs in a small handout booklet.

Excessive singing, singing multiple songs, adding singing where it didn’t exist before
People talking before, during, and after Mass in Church
Recent “rules” which specify we should be standing for most of the Mass
Priests telling “jokes” before, during, or after Mass.

…these are my complaints about distracting things at Mass

I think our last pastor used to enforce a lot of standing, because he probably thought people weren’t paying enough attention, if they were kneeling (or sitting). I resent that arbitrary use of power. People have left our parish and contribute less, to make the pastor as uncomfortable as he makes us.

 

[LaetenturCaeli]

This might be helpful: ewtn.com/expert/answers/cdw_liturgical_abuses.htm.

Please click on the “Kinds of Liturgical Abuses” section.

An example of the gravest abuse might be concelebrating Holy Mass with non-Catholic priests or ministers.

A grave abuse might be someone other than a priest praying the Eucharistic Prayer.

The least abusive would be the many things that folks very often find obnoxious and annoying, and which are illicit, but which are clearly not as contrary to the essence of the Mass as are other abuses.

I think that this final category is one that many people treat as if it’s a hill to die on, and consequently either make assisting at Mass very difficult on themselves, or else make such a stink in their parish that no one listens to them.

 

[felsguy]

I often wonder if a more appropriate title for these kinds of threads might not be something like “Things That Really Annoy Me. There, I Feel Better Now.”

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

With all due respect, I agree with (name removed by moderator).

Excessive singing, singing multiple songs, adding singing where it didn’t exist before
People talking before, during, and after Mass in Church
Recent “rules” which specify we should be standing for most of the Mass
Priests telling “jokes” before, during, or after Mass.

…these are my complaints about distracting things at Mass

None of this is illicit, let alone abuse. The talking might be rude, but nothing you list violates a rubric or law.

 

[Mintaka]

Practices at Mass may show a lack of reverence, or a lack of taste, without actually being a sin or a liturgical abuse.

Practices at Mass may cause distraction or show a lack of charity without being a sin or a liturgical abuse.

Lots of actions can be pains in the backside without actually amounting to sin or abuse.

As for speed, the Church fully supports quick Masses, like the “Airport Masses” that are done in fifteen minutes, with a homily that consists of only a few sentences. The trick is for the priest to celebrate reverently as well as quickly, and to make those few sentences count. I have seen it done well and been left with a lot to think about and pray on. In your example, the priest may not know how to do it well, or may not have had a good reason. But then again, maybe he did have a good reason, which he just couldn’t share.

For example, in the old days, priests were sometimes called out of Mass to go give Last Rites to somebody, so they’d just finish up fast and go!

Why not write a nice letter to the priest of the parish/es about your specific concerns? You have a right to say what you think, and to encourage priests to promote reverence and piety. If you are shy about it, you don’t have to sign the letter, even. Just don’t get nasty about it, or everything you say will be ignored. (It might be anyway, but other people may also be complaining, and eventually these things get noticed.)

 

[ProVobis]

I was in one parish, where, as a concession to people going to work, the priest said a “turbo” Mass that was completed in about 20 minutes (maybe 35 lay people in attendance). For me, that’s almost too fast.

Maybe, but in this environment of conveniences, how are you going to sell the most reverent Mass if it’s well over an hour and a half? Has anyone got that amount of time these days?

 

[pnewton]

With all due respect, I agree with (name removed by moderator).

None of this is illicit, let alone abuse. The talking might be rude, but nothing you list violates a rubric or law.

Ditto. Griping here does no good. I would say it might be better to talk to the priest about your feelings. The two of you can sort out that which are feelings you can deal with better, and those things which may have gotten out of hand. I would take with you a dose of humility and recognition that your own attitude might be the problem. In fact, that might be the best way to start. It would seem less confrontational. Perhaps some good could come of it.

 

[Glennon_P]

Maybe, but in this environment of conveniences, how are you going to sell the most reverent Mass if it’s well over an hour and a half? Has anyone got that amount of time these days?

I suspect the “turbo” Mass is early morning during the week. I know that’s the way it is at my parish; the 6:30 Mass rarely lasts beyond 7:00. If it does, several people who ride the bus to work end up leaving early. It’s quiet and reverent and a great way to start the day for those of us who can go.

That doesn’t mean our Sunday Masses are also 30 minutes. On the contrary, they are almost always at least an hour and sometimes reach an hour and fifteen minutes. Different days, different audiences, different approaches…but the same priests and the same Holy Sacrifice.

 

[pnewton]

Maybe, but in this environment of conveniences, how are you going to sell the most reverent Mass if it’s well over an hour and a half? Has anyone got that amount of time these days?

We had a guest priest once that did turbo Mass. At the end he apologied (sort of) by explaining he spent his whole life as a Navy chaplain. He would take a helicopter to one ship where he was told he had thirty minutes to say Mass and be back on the pad for the next one.

My own priest during Lent and Advent does an early morning Mass in which he guarantees twenty-five minutes, and even acknowledged that it was okay if someone had to leave after communion if he went longer. Our daily Mass has grown to the size of the Saturday night vigil Mass during these times as a result.

 

[DCNBILL]

I was in one parish, where, as a concession to people going to work, the priest said a “turbo” Mass that was completed in about 20 minutes (maybe 35 lay people in attendance). For me, that’s almost too fast. At the opposite extreme, at my parish, there are so many songs, that I almost forget that I’m at Mass – the Mass seems to be squeezed in between the songs. There was this one sunday where I counted a total of 78 stanzas and refrains. One practical consequence for me is that my voice was getting hoarse from trying to sing all those verses – with the effect now that I don’t even pick up the song sheets (we don’t use books, they print the songs in a small handout booklet.

Excessive singing, singing multiple songs, adding singing where it didn’t exist before
People talking before, during, and after Mass in Church
Recent “rules” which specify we should be standing for most of the Mass
Priests telling “jokes” before, during, or after Mass.

…these are my complaints about distracting things at Mass

I think our last pastor used to enforce a lot of standing, because he probably thought people weren’t paying enough attention, if they were kneeling (or sitting). I resent that arbitrary use of power. People have left our parish and contribute less, to make the pastor as uncomfortable as he makes us.

The evil one loves to see us distracted at prayer and at Mass, he will be sure to raise our awareness of anything that would irk us the most. Just say “behind me Satan” and keep your focus on God, Jesus Christ and prayer. Blessings.

 

[pianistclare]

+1

 

[Redd_Jackal]

Telling people they must stand after returning to the pew from receiving Communion and to remain standing until the remains are put away is one. We were told the GIRM says so.

Another is Marty Haugen’s Gloria which has a refrain. They do not use such a Gloria in the other dioceses where I’ve attended Mass.

The bells are no longer rung when the host or the chalice is elevated. It is probably to only sacred silence we experience nowadays.

I’ve also been to parishes where the priest tells everyone to “rise and greet one another as family and friends.” It puts one in several awkward positions: Making small talk in a place of worship. Juggling Song and Prayer books so you lose your place: And greeting the same folks 30 minutes later.

 

[SaintFrancis333]

I could not disagree more. After becoming Catholic I have had my faith diluted and watered down in the Masses I’ve experienced (especially since moving out to California). The Novus Ordo Mass that is currently being said in a good large number of parishes throughout the country are not staying in line with Vatican II. I had almost given up practicing the faith because I found myself sinning more attending Mass by judging the errors of others. I tried so hard (I truly did) to just ignore the abuses and focus on Christ. But how could I? People chit chatting the entire time, Fr making jokes throughout the Mass, a visiting priest saying the Mass while chewing gum (including while receiving Communion), etc. Then God blessed me with the rare opportunity of attending a Latin Mass at a parish an hour and a half away. It’s so inconvenient to have to travel that far but it is so worth the sacrifice. Attend a Latin Mass and then see a Novus Ordo Mass and see the absolute lack of reverence in the NO. It is astounding.

 

[OraLabora]

I suspect the “turbo” Mass is early morning during the week. I know that’s the way it is at my parish; the 6:30 Mass rarely lasts beyond 7:00. If it does, several people who ride the bus to work end up leaving early. It’s quiet and reverent and a great way to start the day for those of us who can go.

That doesn’t mean our Sunday Masses are also 30 minutes. On the contrary, they are almost always at least an hour and sometimes reach an hour and fifteen minutes. Different days, different audiences, different approaches…but the same priests and the same Holy Sacrifice.

When I used to work in the city (I’d go in once a week, and telecommute on other days) I would go to the 7 am Mass at St. Joseph’s Oratory. If traffic wasn’t too bad going in, I would have time to read the Office of Readings before Mass and pray over the tomb of St. André Bessette. The Mass itself was very short, just 25 minutes, keeping in mind that it was recited, no singing, and no Gloria or Creed unless feast or solemnity, in which case the Mass would take maybe 27 minutes tops. It was quiet, it was serene, and I’d step outside to sunrise over Montréal, with the city at my feet below Mount Royal. A very lovely moment.

Mass at the Abbey on Sundays is about 1h 20 min, with all the stops: Gregorian chant, incense, organ pre- and postludes. Longer on the big solemnities.

 

[ProVobis]

I suspect the “turbo” Mass is early morning during the week. I know that’s the way it is at my parish; the 6:30 Mass rarely lasts beyond 7:00. If it does, several people who ride the bus to work end up leaving early. It’s quiet and reverent and a great way to start the day for those of us who can go.

I hear you. In the 50’s our parish had 4 weekday morning Masses, 6:30, 7, 7:30, and 8. Basically they followed one another. Sometimes there were even shorter Masses on the side altars. One could come in for 5 minutes or 2 hours, but he generally had a wide window open to him. Of course, now they criticize that system as being abusive. I don’t see how.

 

[otjm]

this thread

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=13904807#post13904807

in the ‘ask an apologist’ forum, answers one specific question about something done at Mass. Fr. Grodin says the particular sprinkling with water is “illicit…but not abusive.”

Well, that raises the more general question about what is the threshold for being abusive?

In my local parishes, I think there are quite a few illicit variations in the Mass. Maybe any specific one is merely illicit but not abusive, but taken together, when I see one thing after another, I think it’s abusive.

Somewhere in his writings, Pope Benedict XVI talks about this problem of a priest introducing novelties at Mass which distract from a lay person’s mental composure about participating in the Mass.

I was in one parish, where, as a concession to people going to work, the priest said a “turbo” Mass that was completed in about 20 minutes (maybe 35 lay people in attendance). For me, that’s almost too fast. At the opposite extreme, at my parish, there are so many songs, that I almost forget that I’m at Mass – the Mass seems to be squeezed in between the songs. There was this one sunday where I counted a total of 78 stanzas and refrains. One practical consequence for me is that my voice was getting hoarse from trying to sing all those verses – with the effect now that I don’t even pick up the song sheets (we don’t use books, they print the songs in a small handout booklet.

Excessive singing, singing multiple songs, adding singing where it didn’t exist before
People talking before, during, and after Mass in Church
Recent “rules” which specify we should be standing for most of the Mass
Priests telling “jokes” before, during, or after Mass.

…these are my complaints about distracting things at Mass

I think our last pastor used to enforce a lot of standing, because he probably thought people weren’t paying enough attention, if they were kneeling (or sitting). I resent that arbitrary use of power. People have left our parish and contribute less, to make the pastor as uncomfortable as he makes us.

From what you mention (and I am not assuming there are not other matters), you have not mentioned anything illicit, let alone abusive.

And as an aside, in the 1950’s I would serve Mass at 6:30 a.m., and the priest could whip through it in less than 20 minutes; my younger brother still insists the priest could say Latin breathing in as well as breathing out.

This is one of the problems we seem to have; too many people do not know the GIRM, and do not know within the GIRM what is a serious rule, and what is a more minor matter; and as a result we have people spending undue amounts of time belaboring over alleged abuses.

 

[otjm]

Telling people they must stand after returning to the pew from receiving Communion and to remain standing until the remains are put away is one. .

I am not going to dig through the GIRM to see if it has been changed, but in about 2001 - 2002 the GIRM was issued with that specifically. The point was that at Communion time, we are all in a procession, whether we are moving at the moment or standing still, and the reason for standing in the pew after reception was that we were still part of the procession, even though we had received.

It caused enough furor that Cardinal George, as the point man for the USCCB sent a dubium (official question) to the dicastery in charge of the Liturgy, asking if we were really required to continue to stand after receiving,

The official answer from Cardinal Arinze was that Rome did not intend that the rule be that rigid, but rather that people could also sit or kneel.

That pretty much widely resulted in people doing what they had before - kneeling after receiving.

A few years ago I attended Mass in a parish in northern California, not in one of the big cities; and some people stood; most knelt, and a few sat. That is the only parish I have come across in maybe the last 5 years where anyone stood.

And as far as I know it may still be in the GIRM; it most certainly was at one point.

What is the difference between a terrorist and a liturgist?

You can negotiate with a terrorist…

 

[Myles_Falworth]

Father X, our new associate priest, is using the “old” translation of the liturgy. This is the one (Second translation?) used prior to the current translation.

He also changes the words to many of the words in the Eucharistic prayer. I have heard him use the phrase “God’s unconditional love” at every service I have attended with him. He often invents his own prayers said during the consecration and ties them to the theme of his homily. The prayer said immediately before the “Lord I am not worthy that you should come under my roof……” is so altered each Sunday that the people don’t know when to come in.

When he says the words of institution, he always uses the older form and emphasizes “which is poured out for you and for ALL…” He also emphasizes in sermons that nobody should EVER fear to come to the Lord’s Supper. He seems not to know about mortal sin and reconciliation.

When he gives the peace, he always says “the peace of the lord IS with you.” And when he gives the final blessing, he either says “The blessing of God……IS with you” Or “The blessing of God be with us, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.” He also asks the congregation for an “Amen” after every homily.

One day in January, inspired by Fr. X’s style, our youngest Deacon changed the words of the contrition by inserting “You are an awesome God” as the third phrase.

Fr. X’s homily one day recently, he said the wise men had some intuition that they should not go back to Herod. He then focused on intuition and how we should use our intuition to connect with God. To illustrate his point, he quoted from three people. One was Johannes ___________?, another was Bill Gates, and the third was Steven Hawking, an avowed atheist.

One Sunday, when the Gospel reading was on the finding of Jesus in the Temple, his homily focused on how parents should give discipline to their children, and children should obey their parents. He described Our Lord as disobedient to his parents, and said he had always had a “problem” with this reading.

At the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, his homily had nothing at all to say about the Immaculate Conception.

At another recent Mass, he referred to God as “Father and Mother God.”

 

[corsair]

At my age, (76), I consider myself to be in the “home-stretch”. Therefore I am concerned about my soul. I have ceased quibbling over things that used to upset me (and there were lots of them). So I spent a few years searching for a church that fed my soul. And I have found it in the FSSP parish in Tacoma, WA.

I no longer attend churches that ad-lib the Mass or choirs that sing the obligatory 4 hymns mixed with some unpleasant guitar solos.

I love the Sung High Mass with its never changing rhythm. I know exactly what to expect and I love it.

God Bless

 

[Phemie]

I am not going to dig through the GIRM to see if it has been changed, but in about 2001 - 2002 the GIRM was issued with that specifically. The point was that at Communion time, we are all in a procession, whether we are moving at the moment or standing still, and the reason for standing in the pew after reception was that we were still part of the procession, even though we had received.

It caused enough furor that Cardinal George, as the point man for the USCCB sent a dubium (official question) to the dicastery in charge of the Liturgy, asking if we were really required to continue to stand after receiving,

The official answer from Cardinal Arinze was that Rome did not intend that the rule be that rigid, but rather that people could also sit or kneel.

That pretty much widely resulted in people doing what they had before - kneeling after receiving.

A few years ago I attended Mass in a parish in northern California, not in one of the big cities; and some people stood; most knelt, and a few sat. That is the only parish I have come across in maybe the last 5 years where anyone stood.

And as far as I know it may still be in the GIRM; it most certainly was at one point.

What is the difference between a terrorist and a liturgist?

You can negotiate with a terrorist…

Standing as the posture from the Mystery of Faith to the dismissal has been the posture in the UNIVERSAL GIRM (before adaptation for the US and other countries) since 1974. Nobody paid much attention to it. That’s why I was so surprised when the 2002 GIRM triggered the dubium from Cardinal George.