Im a Catholic but dont REALLY believe in Jesus

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tomberg said:
I also find CS Lewis’s arguments to be full of logical flaws and not very convincing, but still good reading. I actually much prefer the arguments presented by Soren Kierkegaard and I think his answers to faith are much more inspiring and true. Kierkegaard argued that belief in Christ was completely irrational and anyone who tried to argue to the contrary either did not understand the true extraordinary significance of the Christian message or teaching, or that their faith was merely conventional and completely uninspired. Essentially we believe not because it is provable or rational, but rather because it is irrational and impossible. That is faith.
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I have the same opinion about CS Lewis. Thanks for suggesting Kierkegaard, it sounds like a better approach to me.
 
Techno2000 said:
do you believe in the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe ?
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I do believe in virgin Mary. In fact, I was able to pray the rosary even during time I wasnt able to speak to God. I dont know why (despite my anti-catholic upbringing) but rosary gives me peace and from my subjective point of view God responded in almost miraculous way to my rosary intention. And this is of course something that gives me the strength to keep my faith, even its not perfect.
Concerning those pictures- It should be left to scientific analysis. Im not really into this kind of evidence.
 
ladybug25 said:
I do believe in virgin Mary. In fact, I was able to pray the rosary even during time I wasnt able to speak to God. I dont know why (despite my anti-catholic upbringing) but rosary gives me peace and from my subjective point of view God responded in almost miraculous way to my rosary intention. And this is of course something that gives me the strength to keep my faith, even its not perfect.
Concerning those pictures- It should be left to scientific analysis. Im not really into this kind of evidence.
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I think you are doing good, considering we have to try a have faith while going through the storms of this world. One of the best books I have read is about the hidden supernatural life of Jesus and Mary : The Mystical City of God, here is the link:

themostholyrosary.com/mystical-city.htm
 
ladybug25 said:
I don’t know for sure if it really happened. Probably yes, but how can we know for sure? None of us was there.
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There are many things in life we believe to be true because we rely on others who we believe to be credible. All the things in history happened in our absence. And yet we believe such history to be correct. We believe the writers of such knowledge to be credible although all of these writers are dead and we can’t interview them, there is no video or photos of the people, events that happened.

Likewise, we rely on the testimonies of early Christians and apostles that Jesus lead them taught them and recorded their experiences and his teachings. Those who witnessed or experienced miracles are even more convinced that this man is worth dying for. Many others were convinced on pure faith. Many felt the touch of the Holy Spirit in them. Even today, there is no shortage of people who felt the touch of God in their lives. Credible people.
 
ladybug25 said:
Thanks Randy. I see that foreword is written by Strobel. I have his book at home and it was one of the first Christian books I read. It convinced me back then. I just didnt take Strobell seriously after I discovered he is a creationist and didnt find his book about creation scientifically accurate.
But I guess the book about Jesus is fine.
So I I will read it again.
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Gary R. Habermas The Historical Jesus may be another good book.

Part One: Contemporary Challenges to the Historicity of Jesus
1 The Modem Quest for the Historical Jesus
2 Did Jesus Ever Live?
3 Limitations on the Historical Jesus
4 Reinterpetations of the Historical Jesus
5 The New Gnosticism
6 The Jesus Seminar and the Historical Jesus
Part Two: Historical Data for the Life of Jesus
7 Primary Sources: Creeds and Facts
8 Archaeological Sources
9 Ancient Non-Christian Sources
10 Ancient Christian Sources (Non-New Testament)
11 Summary. and Assessment
Appendix 1: Historiography
Appendix 2: An Apologetic Outline
Appendix 3: A Selected Scholarly Bibliography for Non-Christian Sources

These are the Chapter Headings.

And his manuscript on Dealing With Doubt. Full article.

garyhabermas.com/books/dealing_with_doubt/dealing_with_doubt.htm
 
StrawberryJam said:
Sorry, you did nothing to rise to the level of outrage.
You have posted a pic without commentary and claimed I am outraged for calling you out on that.
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You’re “calling out” Techno for posting a picture with a link so that you could learn more about the photo?

That’s somehow a violation of forum rules or protocol?

:nope:
 
ladybug25 said:
I have the same opinion about CS Lewis. Thanks for suggesting Kierkegaard, it sounds like a better approach to me.
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Kierkegaard’s writing can be dense but I find it a much more persuasive avenue to faith then those who try to “prove their faith.” If it can be proven, then it is not faith. I will also be honest and this will probably draw some fire, but until just a few years ago I was a avowed Richard Dawkins type of Atheist and I personally have to admit, that on the whole, I tend to be of the opinion if that you are going by all the available evidence, scientific, literary-historical, anthropological, etc… the evidence tends to support disproving the story presented in the Gospel and definitely points away from an all loving and powerful god. Prior to our dating, my wife and I were good friends and she attended Harvard Divinity school and I would attempt to argue the validity of her religious beliefs repeatedly. She would never engage me in any of my long winded diatribes, with all my proof against her belief, she would simply state “You can not prove the truth of religion with your head, you just have to feel it in your heart, no amount of my arguing will ever convince you otherwise.” She was absolutely right. I came to God through Alcoholics Anonymous and when I did I was incredibly hostile to conceptions of God, and they offered me the perfect approach to God. They told me that instead of believing in my parents conception of God, or society’s conception of God, why didn’t I just start by believing in my own conception of God. If I could not believe, was I just willing to believe in God. Being willing to believe is the best place to start, and I continued to pray for guidance and willingness to believe. Eventually and I can not explain it, but something happened inside me and I had an overwhelming experience of God’s love for me and his presence. Don’t worry about having to believe everything that the Church teaches right now, I personally don’t think it is necessary. Just be willing to believe in God’s love for you and asking God to be active in your life and though it might take time, God always come to those who come seeking him/her. After that God will lead you in the right direction. I would also recommend some books by some Catholic priest who are not very much liked on this site, but never the less are in complete communion with the Church and teachings are consistent with Catholic teaching. Richard Rohr, and Thomas Keating have been very instrumental in bringing me back to the Church, and Cynthia Bourgeault is an Episcopal priest who also writes beautifully on the faith. God Bless you.
 
tomberg, i can see some very deep thoughts in your post This is the direction i feel I need to go. Because when someone gives me evidence, I usually almpost immediately find some cotradiction. It is not because i dont want to believe, Its just the way my brain works. It always looks for pros and cons and Im used to looking at problems in a complex way.
This is why i Think there will never be an evidence which will 100% persuade me.
Thats why I find your post very inspiring. Thank you for your story.
 
tomberg said:
Kierkegaard’s writing can be dense but I find it a much more persuasive avenue to faith then those who try to “prove their faith.” If it can be proven, then it is not faith. I will also be honest and this will probably draw some fire, but until just a few years ago I was a avowed Richard Dawkins type of Atheist and I personally have to admit, that on the whole, I tend to be of the opinion if that you are going by all the available evidence, scientific, literary-historical, anthropological, etc… the evidence tends to support disproving the story presented in the Gospel and definitely points away from an all loving and powerful god. Prior to our dating, my wife and I were good friends and she attended Harvard Divinity school and I would attempt to argue the validity of her religious beliefs repeatedly. She would never engage me in any of my long winded diatribes, with all my proof against her belief, she would simply state “You can not prove the truth of religion with your head, you just have to feel it in your heart, no amount of my arguing will ever convince you otherwise.” She was absolutely right. I came to God through Alcoholics Anonymous and when I did I was incredibly hostile to conceptions of God, and they offered me the perfect approach to God. They told me that instead of believing in my parents conception of God, or society’s conception of God, why didn’t I just start by believing in my own conception of God. If I could not believe, was I just willing to believe in God. Being willing to believe is the best place to start, and I continued to pray for guidance and willingness to believe. Eventually and I can not explain it, but something happened inside me and I had an overwhelming experience of God’s love for me and his presence. Don’t worry about having to believe everything that the Church teaches right now, I personally don’t think it is necessary. Just be willing to believe in God’s love for you and asking God to be active in your life and though it might take time, God always come to those who come seeking him/her. After that God will lead you in the right direction. I would also recommend some books by some Catholic priest who are not very much liked on this site, but never the less are in complete communion with the Church and teachings are consistent with Catholic teaching. Richard Rohr, and Thomas Keating have been very instrumental in bringing me back to the Church, and Cynthia Bourgeault is an Episcopal priest who also writes beautifully on the faith. God Bless you.
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Franz Werfel: “For those who believe, no explanation is necessary; for those who do not believe, no explanation is possible.” 🙂
 
tomberg said:
Kierkegaard’s writing can be dense but I find it a much more persuasive avenue to faith then those who try to “prove their faith.” If it can be proven, then it is not faith. I will also be honest and this will probably draw some fire, but until just a few years ago I was a avowed Richard Dawkins type of Atheist and I personally have to admit, that on the whole, I tend to be of the opinion if that you are going by all the available evidence, scientific, literary-historical, anthropological, etc… the evidence tends to support disproving the story presented in the Gospel and definitely points away from an all loving and powerful god. Prior to our dating, my wife and I were good friends and she attended Harvard Divinity school and I would attempt to argue the validity of her religious beliefs repeatedly. She would never engage me in any of my long winded diatribes, with all my proof against her belief, she would simply state “You can not prove the truth of religion with your head, you just have to feel it in your heart, no amount of my arguing will ever convince you otherwise.” She was absolutely right. I came to God through Alcoholics Anonymous and when I did I was incredibly hostile to conceptions of God, and they offered me the perfect approach to God. They told me that instead of believing in my parents conception of God, or society’s conception of God, why didn’t I just start by believing in my own conception of God. If I could not believe, was I just willing to believe in God. Being willing to believe is the best place to start, and I continued to pray for guidance and willingness to believe. Eventually and I can not explain it, but something happened inside me and I had an overwhelming experience of God’s love for me and his presence. Don’t worry about having to believe everything that the Church teaches right now, I personally don’t think it is necessary. Just be willing to believe in God’s love for you and asking God to be active in your life and though it might take time, God always come to those who come seeking him/her. After that God will lead you in the right direction. I would also recommend some books by some Catholic priest who are not very much liked on this site, but never the less are in complete communion with the Church and teachings are consistent with Catholic teaching. Richard Rohr, and Thomas Keating have been very instrumental in bringing me back to the Church, and Cynthia Bourgeault is an Episcopal priest who also writes beautifully on the faith. God Bless you.
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Thomas Keating? Former abbot of Snowmass?
 
Randy_Carson said:
Thomas Keating? Former abbot of Snowmass?
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Absolutely. Father Keating is an amazing and insightful man and I completely understand that in the Rad/Trad Catholic community him and Rohr are almost considered heretical in certain segments, so I am not going to argue about the Orthodoxy of their beliefs. The Church has never chosen to discipline them or silence them so if there were any serious theological problems in their teachings, the Church would not hesitate to silence them. People might disagree, but they are still Orthodox believers.
 
ladybug25 said:
tomberg, i can see some very deep thoughts in your post This is the direction i feel I need to go. Because when someone gives me evidence, I usually almpost immediately find some cotradiction. It is not because i dont want to believe, Its just the way my brain works. It always looks for pros and cons and Im used to looking at problems in a complex way.
This is why i Think there will never be an evidence which will 100% persuade me.
Thats why I find your post very inspiring. Thank you for your story.
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I am exactly the same way. I am an attorney so by nature I am hyper critical and to be good at my line of work, I have to be able to evaluate evidence honestly and anticipate and argue both sides of the issue at hand. I have to know the opponents arguments and the validity of their evidence as well as they do in order to frame my arguments and anticipate theirs. I will also state that if this was a legal case, almost no of the evidence used to support the truth of the Gospels would be admissible in court, much less uphold a decision of “Beyond a reasonable doubt” or even a “preponderance of the evidence.” I have not read the Cold Case book, but I also know that none of his evidence would be considered reliable or authentic enough to ever be admissible in a court of law.
I think most importantly, if G-d wanted us to have evidence that would be able to convince us, it would just be much easier to announce his/her presence to all of us by the simple means of a booming voice from the sky, than requiring perfect adherence to a story that occurred 2000 years ago with absolutely zero contemporary eye witness evidence available to us. Faith is not supposed to be “proven” through intellectual methods, it is meant to be felt in the heart and then transform our entire being. I am so happy that my post was able to assist you in your journey. I truly appreciate your honesty and your struggle, but I assure you, it is the most worthwhile adventure and inquiry you can ever undertake.
 
tomberg said:
Absolutely. Father Keating is an amazing and insightful man and I completely understand that in the Rad/Trad Catholic community him and Rohr are almost considered heretical in certain segments, so I am not going to argue about the Orthodoxy of their beliefs. The Church has never chosen to discipline them or silence them so if there were any serious theological problems in their teachings, the Church would not hesitate to silence them. People might disagree, but they are still Orthodox believers.
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I first met Dom Thomas in 1980 when he was the Abbot of St. Joseph’s Abbey in Spencer, MA, and I was a candidate there.
 
ericc said:
There are many things in life we believe to be true because we rely on others who we believe to be credible. All the things in history happened in our absence. And yet we believe such history to be correct. We believe the writers of such knowledge to be credible although all of these writers are dead and we can’t interview them, there is no video or photos of the people, events that happened.

Likewise, we rely on the testimonies of early Christians and apostles that Jesus lead them taught them and recorded their experiences and his teachings. Those who witnessed or experienced miracles are even more convinced that this man is worth dying for. Many others were convinced on pure faith. Many felt the touch of the Holy Spirit in them. Even today, there is no shortage of people who felt the touch of God in their lives. Credible people.
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Thank you for this! Hope you haven’t copyrighted it.😃 Just kidding, but I’d been trying to express something like this for a long time, along the same lines. I used to waste a lot of time arguing with atheists, esp on Quora. I wasn’t very good at it, was totally outnumbered anyway, but at least I tried. Most of the time, I got a bunch of lazy responses telling me to read Dawkins, then I’d understand…

Not trying to derail thread, just wanted to say thanks!
 
Im so glad Ive returned to this forum after quite a long time.
I really appreciate your encouragement, guys and girls :angel1:
I knew in advance that hardly will anyone provide some hardcore evidence. What i needed was your support and I feel so much better now!
 
ladybug25 said:
Im so glad Ive returned to this forum after quite a long time.
I really appreciate your encouragement, guys and girls :angel1:
I knew in advance that hardly will anyone provide some hardcore evidence. What i needed was your support and I feel so much better now!
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I am so glad that we could be of support to you in your quest. May the Holy Spirit walk with you everyday.
 
Sandraaustin said:
Thank you for this! Hope you haven’t copyrighted it.😃 Just kidding, but I’d been trying to express something like this for a long time, along the same lines. I used to waste a lot of time arguing with atheists, esp on Quora. I wasn’t very good at it, was totally outnumbered anyway, but at least I tried. Most of the time, I got a bunch of lazy responses telling me to read Dawkins, then I’d understand…

Not trying to derail thread, just wanted to say thanks!
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I must have copy-pasted from over 20 articles to get to this condensed version.:rotfl:

Dawkins? He hasn’t brought to the table any new atheist discovery that has not been spoken before by those before him. But he sure know how to market his stuff.

Actually there are a few Dawkins rebuttals floating around the web. Look for those that hasn’t got a reply, that means it is valid. But let’s get back to the thread before we are thrown off.
 
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ladybug25:
First of all, blessed Christmas
I guess I have a weird question. Ive became a Catholic in summer 2013. However, as I think about it, i dont REALLY believe in Jesus. I like Christian philosophy, I like the lifestyle, I try to live as if I was a christian. I try to be good, I go to church, ive been praying rosary daily for half a year now.
On the other hand, i dont believe that other religions are false. Im not really sure wether things really happenened like they are described in the Bible. I just like that idea, but Im not completely persuaded. I wouldnt be able to defend these ideas to my friends.
The problem is that i studied social anthropology where we had courses like critical interpretation of religion etc… So for me, Christianity is something that works for me and gives me confort. But I dont feel a need to persuade other people they are wrong if they believe something else.
Catholicism is just a lifestyle for me. Is this a sin? What am I doing wrong? I do really believe that there is a God, but i dont believe people are able to describe him properly. For me, Christianity is just an attempt to describe him that works for me. But why cant i REALLY believe Catholic story is the TRUTH?
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Then you are not Catholic. Pray for faith, confess, and pray some more. Unite your prayer with the offertory of the liturgy and keep praying. You will either persevere or lapse into heresy/ apostasy. I suspect that your formation was lacking if you cannot differentiate truth versus the false religions of the rest of the world.

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