I'm a former atheist. Ask me anything.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Langdell
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Everyone has prayer issues from time to time. The thing to remeber about prayer is that God is not a genie, and every time we want something, we shouldn’t go to Him and rub the lamp.
believe me … I’ve heard it all before. Our prayer has to be in accordance with the divine plan. Or god grants prayers in his own way. In other words, your praying to the thin air … because the only benefit you might get is the same sort of benefit you get from meditation.
Prayer is more about spending time with God and finding out what He wants than trying to get what you want.
have you found out what god wants?
And as far as convincing yourself that religion is untrue think about this: What other organization which has had 265 administrations, has never changed foundational teachings or policies. Think about it. The Catholic Church is the oldest administrative body in the world, older than any government, older than any group, yet its foundational teachings have never changed.
being wrong for longer than anyone else doesn’t seem like something to brag about (but maybe that’s just my opinion)? But actually I’m pretty sure the Jewish faith was here first (and to my knowledge they’re still here). So I guess if longevity makes you right then they win the prize right?
 
believe me … I’ve heard it all before. Our prayer has to be in accordance with the divine plan. Or god grants prayers in his own way. In other words, your praying to the thin air … because the only benefit you might get is the same sort of benefit you get from meditation.

have you found out what god wants?

being wrong for longer than anyone else doesn’t seem like something to brag about (but maybe that’s just my opinion)? But actually I’m pretty sure the Jewish faith was here first (and to my knowledge they’re still here). So I guess if longevity makes you right then they win the prize right?
Actually Catholicism is the Jewish faith brought to its fullness. As Saint Augustine said, the New Testament is hidden in the Old, and the Old Testament is revealed in the New. Jesus Christ is the promised Son of David. But you missed my point. Not just longevity, but longevity with consistency. For example, Egypt is still around, but not ruled by divine Pharaohs. But since St. Peter, the first Pope, the foundational beliefs of Catholicism remain. And I may suspect that part of your problem with prayer stemmed form lack of faith. Do I know what God wants? Not everything. We know only imperfectly (I Corinthians 13:9) I do know that I am where Gods wants me (physically, not spiritually) I do not know why he wants me here, or where it will lead, but I know that I am at the center of God’s will.
 
Actually Catholicism is the Jewish faith brought to its fullness. As Saint Augustine said, the New Testament is hidden in the Old, and the Old Testament is revealed in the New.
I know I studied Augustine in theology as an undergrad.
Jesus Christ is the promised Son of David.
I was also quite good at understanding biblical typology (and I was very well read on a variety of topics, ranging from the apostolic fathers like Clement, Ignatius, and Polycarp, ECF’s like Ireneaus, to very uniquely Catholic topics like Mariology, and a whole host of others). In short there’s not much left for me to learn about the Christian religion.
Egypt is still around, but not ruled by divine Pharaohs.
yes it’s still around (and it’s no longer ruled by Pharaohs), today it’s a breeding ground for terrorist groups like the Muslim Brotherhood (started in Egypt) and is an almost completely Islamic country (with the exception of its Coptic Christian minority and a smattering of other Christian groups).
But since St. Peter, the first Pope, the foundational beliefs of Catholicism remain. And I may suspect that part of your problem with prayer stemmed form lack of faith. Do I know what God wants? Not everything. We know only imperfectly (I Corinthians 13:9) I do know that I am where Gods wants me (physically, not spiritually) I do not know why he wants me here, or where it will lead, but I know that I am at the center of God’s will.
I appreciate your effort … but you’re right. For me it’s a lack of belief in Christianity (or any other religion for that matter) which forms my central objection; but honestly I don’t want to be evangelized to (I can assure you, it’s not gonna happen). I’m here primarily to discuss stuff like stem cell research, abortion, and other political issues where I view Christian sects as an impediment to progress and individual liberty.
 
Langdell:

Thank you for sharing your story with us and offering to answer questions.

Earlier in the thread you mentioned that the tendency for individuals to follow the religion of their ancestors was one of the bigger reasons for your “intellectual atheism”. With this in mind and considering that you were raised a Catholic, became an atheist, and subsequently reverted to Catholicism, do you ever see yourself as an example of such a tendency?

Why is it that you reverted to Catholicism rather than becoming a Muslim, a Witch, a Buddhist, or (considering the impact your coworker had on you) a Mormon? Do you currently consider yourself a “died in the wool Catholic” or merely a nominal one who utilizes your spiritual ancestry as a means to get to God?

Thank you in advance for your responses.
 
I know I studied Augustine in theology as an undergrad.

I was also quite good at understanding biblical typology (and I was very well read on a variety of topics, ranging from the apostolic fathers like Clement, Ignatius, and Polycarp, ECF’s like Ireneaus, to very uniquely Catholic topics like Mariology, and a whole host of others). In short there’s not much left for me to learn about the Christian religion.

yes it’s still around (and it’s no longer ruled by Pharaohs), today it’s a breeding ground for terrorist groups like the Muslim Brotherhood (started in Egypt) and is an almost completely Islamic country (with the exception of its Coptic Christian minority and a smattering of other Christian groups).

I appreciate your effort … but you’re right. For me it’s a lack of belief in Christianity (or any other religion for that matter) which forms my central objection; but honestly I don’t want to be evangelized to (I can assure you, it’s not gonna happen). I’m here primarily to discuss stuff like stem cell research, abortion, and other political issues where I view Christian sects as an impediment to progress and individual liberty.
Legalized abortion is an impediment to individual liberty. This is simply a case of one group of humans declaring another as sub-human.
 
How does an atheist define good and evil, or the law of conscience?
 
How does an atheist define good and evil, or the law of conscience?
funny you should ask that … I guess I’ll start by noting atheists have the smallest representation in US prisons compared to virtually every other group. A fraction of 1% of US prisoners say they’re atheist or agnostic, while Catholics are the largest group in US prisons, and protestants trail closely behind (each comprise about a third of our prison population).

When is the last time you heard about an atheist serial killer or pedophile?

Gee, I think how ever we define good and evil … we do a pretty good job at it huh? :rolleyes:
 
Langdell:

Thank you for sharing your story with us and offering to answer questions.

Earlier in the thread you mentioned that the tendency for individuals to follow the religion of their ancestors was one of the bigger reasons for your “intellectual atheism”. With this in mind and considering that you were raised a Catholic, became an atheist, and subsequently reverted to Catholicism, do you ever see yourself as an example of such a tendency?

Why is it that you reverted to Catholicism rather than becoming a Muslim, a Witch, a Buddhist, or (considering the impact your coworker had on you) a Mormon? Do you currently consider yourself a “died in the wool Catholic” or merely a nominal one who utilizes your spiritual ancestry as a means to get to God?

Thank you in advance for your responses.
You’ve put your finger on a difficult issue. As someone who was raised Catholic and reverted to Catholicism, I do see myself as an example of the tendency of people to follow the faiths they were raised in. Earlier in my life, I explored Quakerism, Judaism, Episcopalianism, and Unitarianism, but I did not stick with any of them. My knowledge of religions other than those is patchy. Christianity, and Catholicism in particular, seem right to me, but they very well might not if I had been raised in a different tradition.

I suppose, then, that I could be termed a “nominal” Catholic. I suspect that it’s more important to pick a faith and follow it, even if it turns out to be wrong, than to wander interminably among a variety of faiths in an effort to find the right one. At the same time, I don’t think I’m a cafeteria Catholic. I believe that Catholic theology is true, and I accept the Church’s authority on matters of faith and morals.

I realize that that may sound contradictory. Feel free to ask follow-up questions.
.
 
funny you should ask that … I guess I’ll start by noting atheists have the smallest representation in US prisons compared to virtually every other group. A fraction of 1% of US prisoners say they’re atheist or agnostic, while Catholics are the largest group in US prisons, and protestants trail closely behind (each comprise about a third of our prison population).

When is the last time you heard about an atheist serial killer or pedophile?

Gee, I think how ever we define good and evil … we do a pretty good job at it huh? :rolleyes:
Statistics mean little when they can be skewed or explained away. But I digress. I’ll save that discussion for another time. I did not ask how many atheists are in prison, or even whether atheists, and agnostics as well, there is a difference btw, avoid criminal acts. I asked for an atheist view of the nature of good and evil, and the source of the law of conscience. And my question is directed primarily at the OP.
 
Statistics mean little when they can be skewed or explained away. But I digress. I’ll save that discussion for another time. I did not ask how many atheists are in prison, or even whether atheists, and agnostics as well, there is a difference btw, avoid criminal acts. I asked for an atheist view of the nature of good and evil, and the source of the law of conscience. And my question is directed primarily at the OP.
fair enough … but the OP isn’t an atheist (and I’m not sure if he ever developed his atheism to that extent; but I’ll let him answer that). As for me, I derive my law of conscience and definition for good and evil the same place everyone else does, from mankind. Whether secular philosophy, legal and political theory, or even religion. Men wrote it all … and I believe without any mystical assistance.
 
Statistics mean little when they can be skewed or explained away. But I digress. I’ll save that discussion for another time. I did not ask how many atheists are in prison, or even whether atheists, and agnostics as well, there is a difference btw, avoid criminal acts. I asked for an atheist view of the nature of good and evil, and the source of the law of conscience. And my question is directed primarily at the OP.
Hi. Sorry, I didn’t realize at first that the question was directed at me.

When I was an atheist, I subscribed to the “pragmatic moral skepticism” described by Richard Posner in The Problematics of Moral and Legal Theory, amazon.com/Problematics-Moral-Legal-Theory/dp/0674007999/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251735018&sr=1-1

Pragmatic moral skepticism is sort of a mid-point between “anything goes” moral relativism and Platonic (or Christian) moral realism. Under that view, morals are real in the sense that, for any given culture, one can state objectively whether something is or isn’t moral. But it’s relativistic in the sense that it does not recognize any overarching objective criteria for saying whether one culture’s morals are more “moral” than another culture’s morals.

Since my return to Catholicism, my view of morals has been very different, needless to say. Accepting the existence of God also means accepting him as the source of true morality.
.
 
I think it was a combination of two things. Lately, I had been kind of coasting at work, not approaching new projects with the dedication I used to have. One of my younger colleagues is a Mormon and works very hard. I would look at him and think about the faith he lives by and what a good example he sets.

Then, at about the same time, I started listening to a series of lectures on CD about the history of Christian theology. The ideas in the lectures – the Trinity, the incarnation, grace, and so on – called out to me.

So, in effect, I asked myself, Why should I continue to resist believing in something that is intellectually satisfying, comforts me, and will help make me a better person? There was no reason to keep resisting. So I opened my heart and mind to God.
.
You week minded fool! Don’t you realize that we’re just one big cosmic accident? Simple as that…No God, nothing! Just a bunch of made up stories…Soon we’ll be hit with an asteroid impact with will cause our extinction and “End of Story” nobody will even know we were here…The Earth is a worthless marble…our future is Mars…dead and desolate…
 
You week minded fool! Don’t you realize that we’re just one big cosmic accident? Simple as that…No God, nothing! Just a bunch of made up stories…Soon we’ll be hit with an asteroid impact with will cause our extinction and “End of Story” nobody will even know we were here…The Earth is a worthless marble…our future is Mars…dead and desolate…
Nihilism, great!!! :rolleyes:
 
notwithstanding Beggbe’s pessimistic outlook (I happen to have more hope in science than my peer); the choice between Nihilism or religion is a false dichotomy (and hence logically fallacious).
 
notwithstanding Beggbe’s pessimistic outlook (I happen to have more hope in science than my peer); the choice between Nihilism or religion is a false dichotomy (and hence logically fallacious).
But didn’t you hear the man we’re going to be hit by an asteroid? :eek:
 
Statistics mean little when they can be skewed or explained away. But I digress. I’ll save that discussion for another time. I did not ask how many atheists are in prison, or even whether atheists, and agnostics as well, there is a difference btw, avoid criminal acts. I asked for an atheist view of the nature of good and evil, and the source of the law of conscience. And my question is directed primarily at the OP.
I was merely showing practically speaking non-theists are very “moral” and productive people (as the maxim goes, actions speak louder than words). However, I also believe we have a very good source of morality, indeed the same one we all have.

The cumulative development of mankind has resulted in a very detailed system of morality. We have a multitude of sources to draw from, ranging from centuries of legal jurisprudence to philosophy, all of which finds its roots dating back to Hammurabi and even earlier. We have randomly evolved into intelligent life with a survival instinct. Through this we slowly developed from individuals to families to tribes to nation states. Religion was always something drawn from incredulity. What we couldn’t understand we attributed to supernatural forces of some sort. The problem is we understand much more than we ever did, with every decade we debunk more and more religious claims, and the momentum is clearly with science.

As for the “law of conscience” our consciousness is something that developed in tandem with what I mentioned above. We begin as biological organisms, with much determined by our genetic composition. Then, as our brain grows we develop our subconscious, in part due to our surroundings, and in part due to our biological makeup.

The problem is for you guys is research into the subconscious is a strongly developing field; making new discoveries every day. So, eventually religion will be left with little to stand on.
 
There is much being done to understand consciousness especially in relation to near death experiences, here is one excerpt taken from near-death.com/evidence.html#a52:

Dr. Ken Ring published a paper in the Journal of Near-Death Studies (Summer, 1993) concerning near-death experiencers who, while out of their bodies, witness real events that occur far away from their dead body. The important aspect to this phenomenon is that these events seen far away are later verified to be true. Experiencers not only witness events from great distances, but they have been documented to hear conversations between people at the same events. Conversations such as these have also verified to be true. An even more fascinating phenomenon occurs when the experiencer actually appears in spirit to someone, usually a loved one, during their NDE and it is verified to be true by the experiencer and the loved one. It is evidence such as this, if scientifically controlled, that can provide absolute scientific proof that consciousness can exist outside of the body. A scientifically controlled NDE that can be repeated which provides such evidence would be the scientific discovery of all time. However, science does not yet have the exact tools to accomplish this. But, science is coming very, very close. This kind of evidence and others provide very strong circumstantial evidence for the survival of consciousness.
 
I just had to put this story in, it’s absolutely amazing:

"NDEs support Einstein’s theory of time travel

Albert Einstein’s theory of relativity allows for the possibility of time travel. During a NDE, some people have reported traveling back in time and some have reported traveling into the future.

(a) I see myself in the midst of a huge crowd. It’s not a modern crowd. They are dressed in the clothes of Bible times … I watch in horror as Jesus is nailed to the cross. (Don Brubaker)" near-death.com/experiences/research08.html

Here’s the story to Don Brubaker’s NDE,

Don Brubaker led a relatively normal life; happily married with three children and a busy broadcasting career, he rarely questioned life and death. After his heart attack and near-death experience, however, everything changed.

Don Brubaker was clinically dead for 45 minutes. During this time he experienced the glory of heaven - and he also journeyed into hell. This is the true story of one man’s journey into the afterlife.

What follows is an excerpt from his book, Absent From The Body. You will find his near-death experience to be unique among other near-death experiences because of the fact that he actually travels through time to experience one of history’s greatest moments.

There was a sudden whoosh, and I saw a large glowing red ball approaching me, almost like the light on the front of a train. In that instant, as the red ball rushed toward me, I knew terror like never before. As it approached, I realized that it was really a large, eerie red eye. It stopped when it got close to me, and then began traveling alongside me through the tunnel. I could hardly stand to look at it, its gaze was so piercing. It felt like it was looking right into my mind, into my very soul.

Still I was plunging into the depths of this horrible tunnel. I glanced at the walls of the tunnel, walls of deep black whirring past me like video footage on fast forward. Yes, I was still there, still falling millions of miles into some terrible pit. And yet, there I was, lying deathlike on a hospital bed. I could see myself there, and it panicked me all the more.

The eye - suddenly I realized that I was seeing the hospital room through the red eye. It was absurd to me that I hadn’t realized this before - and yet I could hardly process my thoughts. It was all too bizarre.

Panic started building in my mind as it began to dawn on me where I was, suspended in this dank tube. As the red eye glowered at me, the thoughts began to arrange themselves, coalescing slowly. Suddenly, the idea was undeniable.

I was in hell.

The realization swept over me like an ocean wave, unstoppable though I tried desperately to dismiss it. Hell! I didn’t even believe in hell! And here I was? This was it?

I had only the briefest moment to react to the thought when a deep, comfortable voice echoed through the tunnel.

“Have no fear, my son,” the voice said with a certain resounding nobility, “for I am with you. I have chosen you to write about the experiences you will go through.”

It was too unreal. I had never been given to believe in “missions from God” and the like anyway. And yet here was a voice that I knew was God’s telling me I had been selected for this nightmare!

But if this is God, why is God here, in this darkness?

Again, the voice responded to my unspoken doubts.

“You’ll first experience hell,” God said evenly, with a tone of complete control, “to prove to you the reality of evil. You’ve only believed that there was goodness. You must see for yourself that hell is real. And then you can tell others about the awful reality of hell, and about the beautiful glory of heaven.”

There was a low murmuring all around me, as if I were in the midst of a huge group of grumbling people. Before me, suddenly, stood a huge black door. The air began to glow and shimmer with oppressive heat.

I watched as the door opened upon a vast, flaming oven. I felt myself drawn like a magnet into the center of the flames - although I was terrified to go in. There were hundreds of others already there, roasting to death, but not dead. Once I was inside, the door slammed shut behind me. The worst, dreadfulest feelings sloshed around inside me, like so much poison.

“Is this actually what hell is?” I asked aloud.

I passed my hands through blue-tipped flames. The fire itself was cold, and it did not hurt me. From nowhere, a thought flashed through my mind: Death, where is thy sting? God, even in the midst of this holocaust, was truly in control of everything. I began to laugh, and the others laughed with me. Our laughter bounced off the walls of the oven and echoed over the roar of the flames.

And instantly, as if someone had flipped the channel selector, I was alone again in darkness.

I sighed, wearily. I could not regulate my feelings, and now I was feeling abandoned and lonely. I longed to be with my family. I wanted to tell them how much I loved them. I needed to tell everyone how much God loved them!

“You will tell others about me, Don,” the voice of God said, out of nowhere. “That is your mission. That is why you are going through these experiences.”

I listened patiently.

to be continued . . . .
 
“You must learn to love others, to have compassion and to forgive them. You must live that others may see me in you.”

In a flash, I could recall every person I had ever held a grudge against, every quarrel I had ever left unresolved.

Suddenly I am enveloped and floating in a deep, electric blue sky. It is the most amazing and beautiful blue I have ever seen. It feels velvety soft. The air seems to sparkle with purity. I am at peace, feeling restful, serene.

I perceived a light moving toward me. It is bluish white and gives off small yellow flashes and sparks at the edges, growing in intensity until it is almost too intense to look into.

And there is a figure in the middle of the light. My very being leaps in recognition that this is Jesus Christ. It’s Christ coming toward me. I gaze at his extraordinarily handsome face. The eyes are full of love and acceptance. I am immersed in a feeling of joy and hope and all good things.

Christ’s voice rings gently, like the sound of tiny, pleasant silver bells.

“Don, do you want to stay here, or do you wish to go back?”

I hesitated to answer. I am wrapped in a warm sense of love and peace. The color is such a pleasure to see and feel. And Jesus indicates no impatience.

I realize that I am grinning like a little boy getting his first puppy.

I am seeing God’s own Son. This is the Lord. This is Jesus!

Suddenly, a soft sense of sadness creeps into my thoughts. I think of my dear family. I can sense the sorrow they would feel if I were gone. I know I must go back to them, that I have work to do.

I wonder about that. It was God who gave me my mission. Why, then, if God wants me to minister to others, is Jesus offering me an opportunity to stay here in heaven?

The answer surfaced from my own thoughts. This is a test. Again, Christ speaks: “Don, do you want to stay or go back?”

“I want to go back,” I answered immediately, knowing I made the right choice.

Jesus smiles.

“You have chosen well. Go. I am with you,” Jesus says gently.

Everything changes again, as if someone has turned a page in a book. I see myself in the midst of a huge crowd. It’s not a modern crowd. They are dressed in the clothes of Bible times. I look down at myself. So am I!

The crowd seems to be jeering at me. Why? Then I see more: I help a man, someone who has been brutally whipped and abused. The crowd is upset because I am offering assistance. But the beaten man has eyes that burn with love and compassion.

How could anyone want to hurt this man? I lift the man off of the dusty road to his feet.

The man turns, and from somewhere he lifts a huge wooden cross to his back. The man begins moving toward a hill. The hill is called Golgotha. With each new moment, I realize more and more clearly what I am seeing.

These people are going to crucify Christ.

I follow, stunned, I watch in horror as Jesus is nailed to the cross, the spikes pounded through his wrists and the sensitive insteps of his feet. I watch helpless as the cross is propped up and dropped into position with an ugly thud. I cover my face with my hands.

If only others could see what I’ve seen. The world would get on its knees … The world would be at peace.
 
I rarely read through 6 pages of discussion but this has been interesting.
Langdell, it is wonderful to hear about your return to faith. I hope that the forum will provide a kind of community that will help you grow spiritually.

Reading Yankee’s comments has got me thinking. I would like to know why atheists stubbornly continue to treat us like we are stupid people who have abandoned intellect. This division between faith and reason is constantly stressed by them despite very good answers that state otherwise. For us Catholics faith and reason are not separated but go together. Our faith helps us understand things more deeply.

The following statement by Yankee has made me decide to post a comment here. It was a response to Crenfro about her atheist husband with a PhD. I quote: “*You have to keep in mind who you’re listening to when you ask people for advice. Your husband has a PhD in mathematics, meaning he’s among a very small class of people in terms of intellectual fortitude. It doesn’t make much sense seeking advice from people who aren’t nearly as smart as he is (because that advice will be inapplicable for a variety of reasons).” *

So Yankee, are you saying that people on the forum are not nearly as smart because you assume that we are all intellectually inferior to both Dr. Atheist and to you, who are an atheist for ‘intellectual reasons’? Just to let you know that I, a devout Catholic, also have a PhD (in political science). And as a member of a “very small class of people of intellectual fortitude” I would like to assure you that my faith is informed and reaffirmed by my intellect. As you clearly hold me in such great esteem may I suggest you follow my example as a fellow intellectual and renounce prejudice. 👍
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top