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Michael_Mayo
Guest
Yes, double effect. And I think sometimes it may require medical judgment more than theological.
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3DOCTORS
Guest
Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but haven’t there been emergency baptisms of such children in their final moments?
At least if there is time and the parents’ wishes are known and it wouldn’t interfere with medical procedures . . . seems I’ve heard of it.
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CompSciGuy
Guest
I can’t watch the video because I have youtube blocked on my computer. Maybe the people in the video are being rude or unpleasant, and I am sorry for that. As for the photos, I cannot say whether it is right or wrong to use the tactic of showing the photos, but what I would ask you is, if you were offended by the photos, why were you offended? If you believe that abortion is morally acceptable (which is what being pro-choice means) then you should have not be offended by pictures of mutilated unborn children. It should be no different for you than a picture of open-heart surgery. If it does offend you, and you feel angry about it, then you should question why it makes you angry.
You are neglecting the fact that an unborn child is killed in the process. This is the one issue that pro-choicers always neglect and refuse to acknowledge.
On the flip side, a child is much, much more valuable than a dog and is worthy of love and protection. The mother is not forced to support a child they do not want. Adoption is always an option. And it’s a much better option than mortal violence against the child (which is what abortion is).
Should I keep a child that I can’t afford, I don’t want to let it starve to death, since there are some parents who simply cannot, no matter what, provide food and shelter for kids.
Interesting logic… kill the child to prevent it from dying. Not to mention you’ve completely neglected that in the United States it is simply not possible that parents could not provide for their children especially considering that there are shelters for the homeless and welfare for those who are unemployed and in need of financial assistance.
This is a flawed argument because a zygote (fertilized cell) is not a potential life, it is a new, unique human life. If allowed to grow it will eventually develop into a fetus, a child, and a fully grown adult. The fertilization is merely a stage of human development, it is as much a human as you are. A single sperm by itself is not a new human life. If left alone it will remain a sperm.
No, it is a genetic anomoly.
If you worship the same God and call yourself Catholic then that means you must believe that the Church has the ability to teach infallibly on matters of faith and morals. The belief that abortion is objectively wrong is not opinion, it is divinely revealed truth and is very easily explained in light of science and philosophy. I would highly encourage you to read “The Unaborted Socrates” by Peter Kreeft. Dr. Kreeft does a very good job of addressing pro-choice arguments.
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LaSainte
Guest
In the case of rape:
Scientifically speaking, from the moment of conception, a new life with a unique DNA that has never before existed comes into being. It is not a potential life. Science tells us it IS a life.
Now, if I am raped, do I have the right, because I want to spare myself any more pain, to kill an in ocent person?
If I am being chased through the mall by a rapist, and there is only one way out, and there is a class of kindergarteners between me and the exit, do I have a right to shoot my way through the class, killing anyone who gets in my way, to spare myself from going through something horrible?
Of course not! It is NEVER ok to kill an innocent person to spare yourself some perceived pain, ever.
Yes, rape is horrible. Yes, it is traumatic. But you can’t just kill a person because you don’t want to go through the trauma of having a rapist’s baby. It doesn’t work like that m
Humans are capable of more love than we can ever understand. Did you see that woman who was held by her captor in Cleveland for 10 years and who had his child from being repeatedly raped? Do you remember what the first thing she did when she escaped was? She went BACK for her child, her rapist’s child. She saved that child’s life because to her, it wasn’t just the product of a rape. It was her child whom she loved and wanted to protect.
Scientifically speaking, from the moment of conception, a new life with a unique DNA that has never before existed comes into being. It is not a potential life. Science tells us it IS a life.
Now, if I am raped, do I have the right, because I want to spare myself any more pain, to kill an in ocent person?
If I am being chased through the mall by a rapist, and there is only one way out, and there is a class of kindergarteners between me and the exit, do I have a right to shoot my way through the class, killing anyone who gets in my way, to spare myself from going through something horrible?
Of course not! It is NEVER ok to kill an innocent person to spare yourself some perceived pain, ever.
Yes, rape is horrible. Yes, it is traumatic. But you can’t just kill a person because you don’t want to go through the trauma of having a rapist’s baby. It doesn’t work like that m
Humans are capable of more love than we can ever understand. Did you see that woman who was held by her captor in Cleveland for 10 years and who had his child from being repeatedly raped? Do you remember what the first thing she did when she escaped was? She went BACK for her child, her rapist’s child. She saved that child’s life because to her, it wasn’t just the product of a rape. It was her child whom she loved and wanted to protect.
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RoseMary131
Guest
Dearest Sneaglebob,
I am sharing with you information on women suffering from Post Abortion Syndrome. Please take time to look over the information. Sometimes people forget or don’t even know the lifetime of pain that women experience after aborting their precious child.
Make sure to inform yourself. One day you may hear a friend tell you of the pain they carry from having aborted their precious child. You want to be able to help that mother or father or even grandparent who is suffering.
You want to know where your friend can find help for their suffering.
In regards to your question about children conceived from rape, it is said that mothers suffer more from their abortion and need more help to recover from their abortion than from the horrible experience of the rape they suffered.
One day it will come to the mother’s heart that during the rape, she was the victim of a person who powered over her, who was stronger and harmed her. Then she will realize that with the abortion, it was she who over powered her own precious child. It was she who was stronger and harmed her own little girl or boy. Her heart will drop once more, for the violence she asked the abortionist to inflict upon her own little child. She’ll know that her baby was not just the baby of a monster who attacked her, but her own precious child.
Peace to you dear Sneaglebob.
Project Rachel :Hope after Abortion hopeafterabortion.com/
Post Abortion Walk postabortionwalk.blogspot.com/
Rachel’s Vineyard rachelsvineyard.org/
Silent No More silentnomoreawareness.org/
October Baby youtube.com/watch?v=I_9l7lEe-AA
Healing - October Baby pattimaguirearmstrong.com/2012/04/healing-through-october-baby.html
Surrendering the Secret surrenderingthesecret.com/
National Helpline for Abortion Recovery nationalhelpline.org/
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Joe_5859
Guest
That some pro-lifers use controversial means to get their message across does not constitute a logical argument in favor of the pro-choice position.
The fact is that a person is a person from the moment of conception. That’s just basic biology.
When I was in college, I took a class on the morality of abortion taut by a pro-abortion atheist philosophy professor. The first three weeks of class, he systematically demolished all of the popular pro-choice arguments because they truly are illogical. Hopefully you will see that more clearly as you get older and study a bit of philosophy.
All the popular pro-choice arguments basically boil down to a refusal to really believe the basic biological fact that a fetus is a person. You wouldn’t advocate for a mother to be able to strangle her newborn just because he was the product of rape or otherwise unwanted, would you? So why use such emotionally charged examples here?
The pro-choice position is incompatible with Catholic moral teaching. You can certainly try to hold on to both. Human beings are capable of living in various states of cognitive dissonance. At least for a time. Eventually something will have to give. And I hope it’s not your Catholic faith.
The fact is that a person is a person from the moment of conception. That’s just basic biology.
When I was in college, I took a class on the morality of abortion taut by a pro-abortion atheist philosophy professor. The first three weeks of class, he systematically demolished all of the popular pro-choice arguments because they truly are illogical. Hopefully you will see that more clearly as you get older and study a bit of philosophy.
All the popular pro-choice arguments basically boil down to a refusal to really believe the basic biological fact that a fetus is a person. You wouldn’t advocate for a mother to be able to strangle her newborn just because he was the product of rape or otherwise unwanted, would you? So why use such emotionally charged examples here?
The pro-choice position is incompatible with Catholic moral teaching. You can certainly try to hold on to both. Human beings are capable of living in various states of cognitive dissonance. At least for a time. Eventually something will have to give. And I hope it’s not your Catholic faith.
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Linusthe2nd
Guest
You are all mixed up. Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The teaching of the Church is simple - no one can take an innocent life. Signs waving has nothing to do with the argument at all.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM ( Catechism on line )
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ccmnxc
Guest
Hi, Sneaglebob. I think you’ll find that there are a good number of teens on the forum, myself included. Nice to have you with us. Now, I guess I could just quote Catechism passages at you, but I find from experience that it isn’t all that helpful, so I’ll just try to explain why I disagree with your position.
To be frank, I am not sure why showing images such as these is something you would find wrong. They may be unpleasant to look at (so are many other things), yet I don’t see how it is actually wrong to show these pictures. If these fetus’s didn’t have enough value to be granted the right to life while they are living, it seems they have even less worth and dignity while dead.
I think some important distinctions need to be made with regards to saving the mother’s life. Abortion is in no instance allowed since its end is to kill a fetus in the womb. Despite the reasons for the abortion, it is always wrong. However, if the mother’s life is in danger, the Church allows operations (the removal of the fallopian tube, for instance) in which the mother’s life can be saved. An unfortunate and unintended consequence is that the child dies, but the operation isn’t intended to kill the child like and abortion is.
This is the one I feel the most compassion for, since the rape victim did not have a choice when it came to sex. It is also the one I have most trouble justifying with logical argumentation. However, I stand with the Church that it is a worse evil to kill the child after rape than it is to allow it to be born. After that, the mother is not obligated to care for it and can put it up for adoption.
I’d go with adoption for this as well, though it strikes me as strange that the solution to prevent a possible death is to kill anyways.
I don’t really defend the potential life argument. I tend to argue that the pro-choicer has the burden of proof with regards to abortion and then go on to argue than in most if not all instances, their logic can be taken to conclusions that include the killing of infants, the comatose, and the disabled. Most people aren’t willing to swallow that pill. With regards to burden of proof, I offer this formulation of Peter Kreeft’s argument:
- Abortion is unjustified killing and we know it.
- Abortion is unjustified killing and we don’t know it.
- Abortion isn’t unjustified killing and we know it.
- Abortion isn’t unjustified killing and we don’t know it.
Abortion is only acceptable in case number three, and here’s why I think why:
We’ll use the hypothetical case that charges are set on a building about to be demolished. In case 1, the charges are blown when there are people inside and it was known by the detonator. He would/should be charged with murder for deliberately and knowingly ending a human life. In case 2, the charges are blown when there are people inside but it wasn’t known for sure. In that case, the detonator would be charged with manslaughter because he killed people but didn’t know and do it with deliberation. In case 3 (the only one which is okay) the charges are blown, people weren’t inside, and this was known. Everyone goes home happy. In case 4, the charges are blown, nobody was killed, but nobody knew if there was anyone inside or not. In that case, someone would be losing their job at best and facing criminal negligence at worst.
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universityprof
Guest
Correct, not only “not prudent” but this borders on child abuse.
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Jon_S_1
Guest
I am curious what the fetus did to deserve the death penalty because of the sins of his father (rape incest) Would you like to be put to death for the sins of your father?
The baby is the innocent victim in all of this, and lets not forget that adoption is an option. There are far too few infants put up for adoption in this country.
You know our laws are designed in such a way as to protect the vulnerable and marginalized. For example, parents may have a beautiful child that is healthy and then one day the babysitter gets in a car crash with the baby and the baby is now severely physically and mentally handicapped. What a burden this child has just become to the parents, what an inconvenience, their plans are now interfered with, and yet we would never say it is ok to kill the baby. Yet we do it everyday in the womb, just a few months earlier.
If a parent does not feed their teenager, its not really too big of a deal, maybe a slap on the hand, if they don’t feed their toddler, they are going to be arrested for child abuse, if they don’t feed their baby, they are going to be arrested, and if the baby dies it is murder. See how the more vulnerable and dependent a person is, the greater the law protects that person? I hope you do, and yet the law stops at the womb, and so the most vulnerable and dependent of our society are not protected at all.
Please remember too, that the cases of medical need are virtually non existent. Where are all the dead catholic mothers who refused to terminate the pregnancy due to a medical issue. It is such a minute fraction of abortions it is almost not worth mentioning. the fact is if you are pro choice it means you are “pro abortion for convenience due to fornication without the intent to have and raise a child” does that sound very Catholic to you??
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Rete
Guest
I just wish people would stop saying they are Catholic when they advocate things like this. It’s nonsensical and extremely detrimental to the Church where it comes to the attitudes and expectations of non-Catholic society.
A claim like the one made by the OP is essentially like saying “I am Catholic but I disagree with Catholicism”. You might as well say that you are no longer a Catholic because you believe women have a right to kill their own babies. You are saying that, even though you believe in God, you adamantly disagree with his condemnation of the sacrificing of babies.
Catholics do not support killing their own babies, or any other babies for that matter. A nation that kills her own babies is like Carthage and Canaan. You cannot both claim you worship God and then support these offerings to Moloch.
A claim like the one made by the OP is essentially like saying “I am Catholic but I disagree with Catholicism”. You might as well say that you are no longer a Catholic because you believe women have a right to kill their own babies. You are saying that, even though you believe in God, you adamantly disagree with his condemnation of the sacrificing of babies.
Catholics do not support killing their own babies, or any other babies for that matter. A nation that kills her own babies is like Carthage and Canaan. You cannot both claim you worship God and then support these offerings to Moloch.
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Caroline723
Guest
I am a nurse. I don’t know everything about medicine, but I do know that after multiple conversations with doctors about “necessary abortion”, there is never a situation where medically a choice must be made between the life of the mother and child. There just isn’t a case that is that black and white.
I too don’t agree with using graphic pictures or videos of abortion. I don’t think this is persuasive at all and I agree about the risk of small children seeing it. But do you see the irony in that you support what you call “disgusting”? There truly is no surgery you could observe that would be as offensive and disturbing as an abortion.
When I was in nursing school long ago, my Catholic mother-of-4 labor and delivery nurse clinical instructor calmly told my clinical group how she had to assist in an abortion of a 24 week fetus. Her job? To reassemble the fetus in a metal pan during the procedure to make sure that an arm, leg or other piece wasn’t left behind. Really picture that. I haven’t been able to drop that image from my mind since i heard it long ago. Truly, this is what you support? It is worth preserving a woman’s “choice” to do that to a baby? Are you aware that the CDC/NIH has said that a fetus may feel pain as early as 7 weeks?
Carrying a pregnancy after rape is tough. I have tremendous admiration for women who follow through on this. But at the same time, people suffer more horrible burdens every single day. Sometimes a person just has to be told to be brave. And honestly, I think the burden is intensified by people telling a rape victim that abortion will alleviate her suffering. How about supporting those women financially, emotionally, spiritually instead? Do you think planned parenthood and NOW offer that? Not a chance.
I too don’t agree with using graphic pictures or videos of abortion. I don’t think this is persuasive at all and I agree about the risk of small children seeing it. But do you see the irony in that you support what you call “disgusting”? There truly is no surgery you could observe that would be as offensive and disturbing as an abortion.
When I was in nursing school long ago, my Catholic mother-of-4 labor and delivery nurse clinical instructor calmly told my clinical group how she had to assist in an abortion of a 24 week fetus. Her job? To reassemble the fetus in a metal pan during the procedure to make sure that an arm, leg or other piece wasn’t left behind. Really picture that. I haven’t been able to drop that image from my mind since i heard it long ago. Truly, this is what you support? It is worth preserving a woman’s “choice” to do that to a baby? Are you aware that the CDC/NIH has said that a fetus may feel pain as early as 7 weeks?
Carrying a pregnancy after rape is tough. I have tremendous admiration for women who follow through on this. But at the same time, people suffer more horrible burdens every single day. Sometimes a person just has to be told to be brave. And honestly, I think the burden is intensified by people telling a rape victim that abortion will alleviate her suffering. How about supporting those women financially, emotionally, spiritually instead? Do you think planned parenthood and NOW offer that? Not a chance.
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Trigonometric
Guest
I’ll admit it’s pretty disturbing. But keep in mind that each of those pictures shows the result of an abortion. If it’s disturbing to even see the aftermath of abortion, imagine how awful the procedure itself must be.
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CompSciGuy
Guest
You are right to have compassion in this case… I would say however that it is not difficult to justify the pro-life position with logical argumentation even in the case of rape, it is just more difficult (and perhaps less appropriate) to do so because of the dark nature of the subject, and the obvious emotional pain associated with rape. And I would never dismiss the emotional pain of someone who has experienced this kind of a crime. But it is also extremely important to remember that about 90 percent of the time when we allow our decisions to be led by our emotions, however justified they may be, we very often end up making the wrong decisions. Being pro-life does not mean that we are being uncompassionate toward women, we just believe that we should be compassionate and supportive of both women and unborn children. Love them both.
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stephe1987
Guest
A sperm cell is a potential life. It is a cell from the man’s body with half of his DNA. A fetus is a life. It is growing (and will continue to grow until it reaches adulthood) and has a new set of DNA unique from both parents and is an unrepeatable human being.
If a woman is raped, she should not be encouraged to abort. Rape is traumatic enough. Abortion is another trauma, only this time she chose to do the violent act. Women who abort after rape have serious problems afterward, it is not a good choice. Contrary to popular belief, most rape victims do not choose abortion. I think I read that around 15% abort. A rape victim is free to place her child for adoption if she cannot or does not want to take care of him or her. Then she can finally make peace with her rape, knowing that although a terrible, evil thing happened to her, she made the right choice in the end. The child is innocent and will be allowed to live in a loving home with a family who either wants a child and cannot have one, or who has children but is opening their arms to more children. Also, women who choose to raise their rape babies see the children as a reflection of themselves. It is their child because they raised it and they do not think of it as the rapist’s baby.
If a woman is raped, she should not be encouraged to abort. Rape is traumatic enough. Abortion is another trauma, only this time she chose to do the violent act. Women who abort after rape have serious problems afterward, it is not a good choice. Contrary to popular belief, most rape victims do not choose abortion. I think I read that around 15% abort. A rape victim is free to place her child for adoption if she cannot or does not want to take care of him or her. Then she can finally make peace with her rape, knowing that although a terrible, evil thing happened to her, she made the right choice in the end. The child is innocent and will be allowed to live in a loving home with a family who either wants a child and cannot have one, or who has children but is opening their arms to more children. Also, women who choose to raise their rape babies see the children as a reflection of themselves. It is their child because they raised it and they do not think of it as the rapist’s baby.
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Jenny35
Guest
THIS
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CopticChristian
Guest
I think that you identify yourself incorrectly.
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GrowingFaith
Guest
So, if someone dropped off a puppy that you couldn’t take care of, would you kill it? (Not meant to be a jab, just a point.) There’s a commandment that says in perfect black and white what a true Catholic’s belief on this matter is. No asterisks. No faithful parents would be unable to care for a child. God would not let that happen. What happened when the Apostles forgot to bring bread? Christ reminded them that the faithful would be taken care of, then he PROVED it!!!
Having faith in the Church doesn’t mean picking and choosing which parts you agree with and which you don’t. One reason Christians aren’t unified, a reason that there are so many “branches” is because people decide that certain beliefs don’t fit their lives. And if you believe the Church is wrong on this issue, what’s stopping you from saying that She’s wrong on any other issue? The Church will never, and should never, adapt to make anyone more comfortable. An individual cannot change the beliefs of the Church to fit their beliefs. Folks should study, think, and pray, so that their beliefs fit with Hers.
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Rau
Guest
Sneaglebob - which faith is it that you defend? The Catholic faith holds that abortion in all circumstances is wrong.
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tuscany
Guest
**Graphic pictures ARE hard to look at, and I don’t know if those in that setting are
appropriate or not. The pictures of the Holocaust victims after WWII, and the pictures of American slaves with whip scars
on their backs are also hard to look at. But people need to see what is actually going on.
People that are Pro-Choice are saying that not all stages of humanity are equal. A human man doesn’t physically stop growing until he is approx. 21 years old, and certain parts of his brain until he is 25. So until then, a human male is just in a stage of growth. So you are saying that it is O.K. to kill this male at 24 weeks of his growing stage ? How about at 40 weeks of his growing stage? 2 years into his growing stage ? 10 years into his growing stage ? Remember, he is still not completely formed human being yet. So why is it O.K. to you to kill this human at 24 or 40 weeks old, and not at 2, 10 or 18 years old ? After all, these are all just the stages of a human beings growth cycle.**
appropriate or not. The pictures of the Holocaust victims after WWII, and the pictures of American slaves with whip scars
on their backs are also hard to look at. But people need to see what is actually going on.
People that are Pro-Choice are saying that not all stages of humanity are equal. A human man doesn’t physically stop growing until he is approx. 21 years old, and certain parts of his brain until he is 25. So until then, a human male is just in a stage of growth. So you are saying that it is O.K. to kill this male at 24 weeks of his growing stage ? How about at 40 weeks of his growing stage? 2 years into his growing stage ? 10 years into his growing stage ? Remember, he is still not completely formed human being yet. So why is it O.K. to you to kill this human at 24 or 40 weeks old, and not at 2, 10 or 18 years old ? After all, these are all just the stages of a human beings growth cycle.**
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