I'm a pro choice catholic, and this is why

[Tigg]

I saw these pictures as a child because the protesters were on the street in front of the clinic, my mother’s only “indiscretion” was not having a car. The clinic was located across the street from a busy bus transfer point. Everything is NOT black and white and every child who sees these things don’t see them because of a neglectful parent.

It is a sad fact that the effects of our sins damage the world and its consequences can lead to the suffering of others - even those of the innocent. I especially think of the aborted souls who were innocent children, too.

 

[sweetpetunia]

If you are baptized and confirmed Catholic, you are Catholic. Period.

No. It is true that you can’t get “unbaptized”, but that does not mean that all Catholics are in good standing with the Church. In fact, Catholics who procure an abortion and meet with certain general conditions automatically excommunicate themselves from the Catholic Church.

There are heretical Catholics as well as ignorant Catholics who have a serious need and obligation to form their consciences correctly. If you are Catholic, you profess to be true all the Catholic Church holds and professes to be true. By its very nature, the Catholic Church is not set up for cherry-picking beliefs. That is why “Pro-choice Catholic” is an oxymoron.

 

[Tigg]

To tell the truth the rhetoric on both sides really turns me off. First the pro choice people with their insistence that there is no life present.

But the pro life people upset me as well. The fertilized ovum becomes a baby first, then a child (that tome at least implies one past infancy). How much older will these people become in the propaganda? Will they next be teens, graduate students?

I don’t mean to be disrespectful or mean. But why not try and meet somewhere between those two extremes?

What I am suggesting is a middle ground on the extreme rhetoric coming from both sides.

Your hyperbole discredits your objection and I find it odd you would paint the gravest of moral evils as mere rhetoric.

 

[Ender]

If you are baptized and confirmed Catholic, you are Catholic. Period.

This is a common perception but it appears to be an inaccurate one.Actually only those are to be included (annumerandi) as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body (neque a Corporis compage semet ipsos misere separarunt), or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. (Pius XII - Mystici Corporus Christi)

I was taught that The Church supports life from natural beginning (conception) to natural death so abortion and capitol punishment in that vein are two sides of the same coin IMO.

This is another misperception of what the church teaches. She has always recognized three cases where life may legitimately be taken.Q. 1276. Under what circumstances may human life be lawfully taken?
A. Human life may be lawfully taken:

• 1. In self-defense…*
     2. In a just war …
     *3. By the lawful execution of a criminal… *(Baltimore Catechism)
     Ender

 

[Ender]

Yes, but even the church now recognizes that the death penalty is wrong and has changed its teaching. Life - from natural birth to natural death.

This is inaccurate; the church does not recognize that the death penalty is wrong. She opposes its application on practical grounds, not moral ones and she has never taken the pacifist position that it is always wrong to take a life.

It’s all about retribution, at least in the US.

This is partly accurate: it is about retribution for the church. That is the primary objective of all punishment - retributive justice. This is why it is just not a good idea to bring capital punishment into a discussion about abortion; people just aren’t all that familiar with the topic.

Ender

 

[Tigg]

andrewstx;10853309:

To tell the truth the rhetoric on both sides really turns me off. First the pro choice people with their insistence that there is no life present.
But the pro life people upset me as well. The fertilized ovum becomes a baby first, then a child (that tome at least implies one past infancy). How much older will these people become in the propaganda? Will they next be teens, graduate students?
I don’t mean to be disrespectful or mean. But why not try and meet somewhere between those two extremes?

It is a sad fact that the effects of our sins damage the world and its consequences can lead to the suffering of others - even those of the innocent. I especially think of the aborted souls who were innocent children, too.

heh – I just discovered what I did, is this the rhetoric of which you speak? But maybe it helps prove my point. I wrote children, not embryo, not fetus without even thinking about it. They are our living, yet unborn, offspring, our descendent - That’s how precious we believe all life to be - from its beginning to its natural end. No rhetoric there!

 

[shocktrooper]

The Church teaches that there can be people who were not baptized AND are in heaven.

There are people, who through no fault of their own, do not know Jesus and were not baptized. God’s mercy can still allow these people into His Kingdom.

The Church teaches that there are people in heaven that were not sacramentally baptized. This means that those baptized by desire or blood are welcomed into God’s Kingdom also.

CCC 1257-1260
Baptism is necessary for salvation for THOSE TO WHOM THE GOSPEL HAS BEEN PROCLAIMED and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.

Again, this is referencing Sacramental or Water Baptism.

As for children who died before baptism (including those who died before birth), they, too, can be in Heaven.

I agree, they CAN BE in heaven but we don’t know for sure.

CCC 1261
As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rite for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way for salvation for children who have died without Baptism.

There are three forms of baptism acknowledged by the Church. One must fall into one of them or they are excluded from the Kingdom.

 

[shocktrooper]

I knew an elderly priest who prayed baptism on all the children in danger of abortion in a spiritual way, under the infinite mercy of God, for only God knew the who and the number. For a man who never had children, I would have liked to have seen all the radiant faces that greeted him on the other side.

This is an admirable thing for this priest to do. He prays for those children precisely because he does not know their end. People don’t pray for those already in heaven; we pray to them asking for intercessions.

God bless.

 

[shocktrooper]

Absolutely true, anyone who says otherwise is incorrect.

Thank you for reading
Josh

Josh, this is untrue. If this was the case, then the best thing we can hope for regarding our children is that they be killed prior to birth. I don’t think you would agree with this. I think this argument you are supporting is based on emotion rather than sound theology and divine revelation. I don’t know of one Church teaching that states clearly and definitively that ALL unborn children go to heaven. If you have such a teaching, can you please share it.

God bless!

 

[SaintFrancis333]

Hello everyone.
Before I begin, I will talk about the first trimester abortion, not the late term, I don’t know what to think about that. also some material here may offend some, I apologize if it does

I am here to say that I am a pro choice catholic. I’m also a teenager. Now probably many of you guys might not think that I am a catholic and although I still do consider myself as a catholic I would also like to know if there is something wrong with my views.

Now I felt I had to say this after watching this video, and I was disgusted by the pro life protesters ways of spreading their word. Contains graphic material, don’t watch if sensitive

youtube.com/watch?v=WMAZX6HRZT4

I was utterly disgusted how they would parade signs showing pictures of first trimester fetuses in front of kids and it is disgusting to everyone and it really does not give Catholics a good image. Its very humiliating. I also disagree with a few pro life arguments.

I do think abortion is definitely not good for anyone and its an extremely difficult decision but its not correct to have our politicians do pass laws that ban abortion completely. There are situations in which an abortion could be used to save a mother’s life. What about rape victims? Should they support a child they don’t want? I would not want to take care of a dog that I don’t want, let alone a child that requires many times more responsibility. Should I keep a child that I can’t afford, I don’t want to let it starve to death, since there are some parents who simply cannot, no matter what, provide food and shelter for kids.

I have a few rebuttals to other arguments, such as the one that every fetus has a potential for life. Every sperm cell has the ability to make a child once combined with an egg. Is it considered geonicide if millions of sperm cells die? they have potential to create a life. Is a chimera, which when two fertilized cells combine, the result of another child killing the other?

What do you think? I still believe and worship the same God you do and defend the faith as well. Thank you

You are entitled to your beliefs but please refrain from receiving the Lord in Communion as you are in a state of mortal sin. You support the murder of innocent children. That makes you just as guilty. If you are unable to reconcile your beliefs with Jesus Christ and His Church, I pray you avoid Communion, lest you literally eat and drink damnation upon yourself. I don’t say that to judge you. I say that to warn you of the danger you put yourself in by being trendy with all the other “modernists”

 

[shocktrooper]

“God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments”.

God is not bound by His sacraments but He is bound by His word. He did say that baptism was necessary for salvation. This was not a suggestion. So one must fall into one of the three forms of baptism that God has revealed to us via His Church.

I hope and pray, like you, that aborted children find their way into heaven, but apart from emotion, it does not look good for them. A parent that chooses to abort their child would have no intention or desire to baptism them, so baptism of desire is out of the question for them. Water baptism is not possible either and baptism of blood is not an option in my opinion. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t, but to say definitively that they all go to heaven is unfounded and can be detrimental to the faith. Also, I am not suggesting that you personally said all unborn children go to heaven.

Pax Christi

 

[deb216]

I was utterly disgusted how they would parade signs showing pictures of first trimester fetuses in front of kids and it is disgusting to everyone and it really does not give Catholics a good image.

So murdering unborn babies is okay but showing pictures of unborn babies is not okay? I cannot agree. Abortion advocates have worked hard to change the narrative; to dehumanize unborn babies until they are nothing but lumps of tissue that can be removed like a tumor or unwanted growth. The only way to combat that ignorance is to show women that those “lumps of tissue” are, in fact, human babies.

Look how careful you are to say “fetus” rather than baby. Why? Pregnant women do not announce that they are having a fetus. They do not wear shirts that say, “fetus on board.” They don’t throw fetus showers. Fetus is a stage of development, not some separate species that becomes human once it is born.

Its very humiliating.

Humiliation comes from shame and dishonor. I am not ashamed to be pro-life, nor am I dishonored by standing up for what I believe in. I am actually very proud of my Catholic faith and willing to share it with the world. At your age, it is normal to be obsessed about what other people think. Maturity will give you a different perspective.

I would not want to take care of a dog that I don’t want, let alone a child that requires many times more responsibility. Should I keep a child that I can’t afford, I don’t want to let it starve to death, since there are some parents who simply cannot, no matter what, provide food and shelter for kids

Why do you limit yourself to these two options, as if your only choices are killing a baby or raising it? There are so many people who would like to be able to adopt the babies that society discards like yesterday’s garbage. I know because I am one of them.

I have a few rebuttals to other arguments, such as the one that every fetus has a potential for life. Every sperm cell has the ability to make a child once combined with an egg. Is it considered geonicide if millions of sperm cells die? they have potential to create a life.

Every fetus does not have the “potential” for life. It is already life. Ova and sperm cells are ingredients. They are not life. This argument is as illogical as saying that flour, soda, sugar and shortening are the same as a wedding cake. Surely we can agree that once is it mixed and baked, the cake is far greater than the sum of its ingredients.

Is a chimera, which when two fertilized cells combine, the result of another child killing the other?

All living things die but all deaths are not murder. When death occurs as part of the natural life cycle, we accept it. When murder is caused, we do not accept it because it is morally wrong. Your argument seems to be that since death occurs naturally, it should be okay to murder. That is illogical. Murder is always morally wrong. If you want to argue that sometimes murder is justifiable then we can have that conversation but first you would have to acknowledge that the intentional disruption of human life IS murder. Since abortion is the intentional disruption of human life, it is also murder.

What do you think? I still believe and worship the same God you do and defend the faith as well. Thank you

I think that you are projecting your thoughts and words onto the Lord so that abortion and faith can peacefully co-exist…but it is HIS will that should be done, not your will. Faith requires a changed heart. It manifests through sacrifice and obedience to the Word, not stubbornly clinging to secular ideas.

 

[josh987654321]

Josh, this is untrue. If this was the case, then the best thing we can hope for regarding our children is that they be killed prior to birth. I don’t think you would agree with this.

Your right, I wouldn’t.

I think this argument you are supporting is based on emotion rather than sound theology and divine revelation. I don’t know of one Church teaching that states clearly and definitively that ALL unborn children go to heaven. If you have such a teaching, can you please share it.

I don’t know, but I’m sure that an unborn child who dies at birth without being baptized or anything certainly doesn’t go to hell.

God bless!

You too.

Thanks for reading
Josh

 

[jmcrae]

Your right, I wouldn’t.

I don’t know, but I’m sure that an unborn child who dies at birth without being baptized or anything certainly doesn’t go to hell.

You too.

Thanks for reading
Josh

Prior to Christ’s resurrection, everyone went to hell - it is the normal afterlife for human beings. When Jesus died on the Cross, the just were released into Heaven, but before that, no human being had ever been allowed into Heaven - and even today it is only a special privilege for the baptized who are without sin.

Hell is still the normal afterlife for most human beings.

 

[shocktrooper]

I don’t know, but I’m sure that an unborn child who dies at birth without being baptized or anything certainly doesn’t go to hell.

I will agree with this. The hell of damnation is not for those with merely Original Sin and no personal sin against God. I lean towards the hypothesis of limbo for the unborn that don’t fall into one of the three forms of baptism.

 

[josh987654321]

Prior to Christ’s resurrection, everyone went to hell - it is the normal afterlife for human beings. When Jesus died on the Cross, the just were released into Heaven, but before that, no human being had ever been allowed into Heaven - and even today it is only a special privilege for the baptized who are without sin.

Hell is still the normal afterlife for most human beings.

I have never heard this before. What about the prophets of the Old Testament? do you think they were all condemned to hell?

God Bless

Thanks for reading
Josh

 

[jmcrae]

I have never heard this before. What about the prophets of the Old Testament? do you think they were all condemned to hell?

God Bless

Thanks for reading
Josh

The Bible teaches us that they resided in Hell until Jesus released them when He descended into Hell to preach to them and bring them the good news that He had fulfilled the Covenant of Moses, and had died for their sins on the Cross.

We find this teaching most explicitly in I Peter 3:18-19, but for a clearer understanding of the whole thing, here is the section about Jesus’ descent into Hell from the Catechism:

PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH

SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH

CHAPTER TWO
I BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY SON OF GOD

ARTICLE 5
“HE DESCENDED INTO HELL. ON THE THIRD DAY HE ROSE AGAIN”

631 Jesus "descended into the lower parts of the earth. He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens."476 The Apostles’ Creed confesses in the same article Christ’s descent into hell and his Resurrection from the dead on the third day, because in his Passover it was precisely out of the depths of death that he made life spring forth:

Christ, that Morning Star, who came back from the dead, and shed his peaceful light on all mankind, your Son who lives and reigns for ever and ever. Amen.477
Paragraph 1. Christ Descended into Hell

632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was “raised from the dead” presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.478 This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ’s descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.479

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”:481 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483

634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead."484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."485 Jesus, “the Author of life”, by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."486 Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades”, so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."487

Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . "I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead."488
IN BRIEF

636 By the expression “He descended into hell”, the Apostles’ Creed confesses that Jesus did really die and through his death for us conquered death and the devil “who has the power of death” (Heb 2:14).

637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him.

476 Eph 4:9-10.
477 Roman Missal, Easter Vigil 18, Exsultet.
478 Acts 3:15; Rom 8:11; 1 Cor 15:20; cf. Heb 13:20.
479 Cf. 1 Pet 3:18-19.
480 Cf. Phil 2:10; Acts 2:24; Rev 1:18; Eph 4:9; Pss 6:6; 88:11-13.
481 Cf. Ps 89:49; 1 Sam 28:19; Ezek 32:17-32; Lk 16:22-26.
482 Roman Catechism I, 6, 3.
483 Cf. Council of Rome (745): DS 587; Benedict XII, Cum dudum (1341): DS 1011; Clement VI, Super quibusdam (1351): DS 1077; Council of Toledo IV (625): DS 485; Mt 27:52-53.
484 1 Pet 4:6.
485 Jn 5:25; cf. Mt 12:40; Rom 10:7; Eph 4:9.
486 Heb 2:14-15; cf. Acts 3:15.
487 Rev 1:18; Phil 2:10.
488 Ancient Homily for Holy Saturday: PG 43, 440A, 452C; LH, Holy Saturday, OR.

I am also including the footnotes so that you can continue to research this subject on your own.

 

[migueltojose]

Hello everyone.
Before I begin, I will talk about the first trimester abortion, not the late term, I don’t know what to think about that. also some material here may offend some, I apologize if it does

I am here to say that I am a pro choice catholic. I’m also a teenager. Now probably many of you guys might not think that I am a catholic and although I still do consider myself as a catholic I would also like to know if there is something wrong with my views.

Now I felt I had to say this after watching this video, and I was disgusted by the pro life protesters ways of spreading their word. Contains graphic material, don’t watch if sensitive

youtube.com/watch?v=WMAZX6HRZT4

I was utterly disgusted how they would parade signs showing pictures of first trimester fetuses in front of kids and it is disgusting to everyone and it really does not give Catholics a good image. Its very humiliating. I also disagree with a few pro life arguments.

I do think abortion is definitely not good for anyone and its an extremely difficult decision but its not correct to have our politicians do pass laws that ban abortion completely. There are situations in which an abortion could be used to save a mother’s life. What about rape victims? Should they support a child they don’t want? I would not want to take care of a dog that I don’t want, let alone a child that requires many times more responsibility. Should I keep a child that I can’t afford, I don’t want to let it starve to death, since there are some parents who simply cannot, no matter what, provide food and shelter for kids.

I have a few rebuttals to other arguments, such as the one that every fetus has a potential for life. Every sperm cell has the ability to make a child once combined with an egg. Is it considered geonicide if millions of sperm cells die? they have potential to create a life. Is a chimera, which when two fertilized cells combine, the result of another child killing the other?

What do you think? I still believe and worship the same God you do and defend the faith as well. Thank you

Rationalizing… why? Whatever the rationalization is (and there are a kajillion rationalizations), it’s never the baby’s fault. So killing it is killing an innocent living child living in the womb of it’s mother… …redrum redrum redrum…

 

[sweetpetunia]

I don’t know, but I’m sure that an unborn child who dies at birth without being baptized or anything certainly doesn’t go to hell.

Josh, I think you’d like the statement from the International Theological Commission on the Vatican website re: the hope of salvation for unbaptized infants. While still being cautious, it has hope for them being able to attain the beatific vision We truly do entrust them to the mercy of God, and our hope is not wholly unfounded, although it does not replace the importance of early infant baptism. Baptism for an infant is his or her guarantee

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html

 

[sweetpetunia]

Prior to Christ’s resurrection, everyone went to hell - it is the normal afterlife for human beings. When Jesus died on the Cross, the just were released into Heaven, but before that, no human being had ever been allowed into Heaven - and even today it is only a special privilege for the baptized who are without sin.

Hell is still the normal afterlife for most human beings.

These were different “hells” though. From a scriptural perspective, there is Sheol (place of darkness) / Hades (abode of the dead), as well as Gehenna (furnace or lake of fire) / Tartarus. When Christ opened the gates of heaven for the just, they were residing in Sheol, not Gehenna.

Part of the reason this is so confusing is that theologians sometimes refer to four different concepts as hell, perhaps because all four lack the full beatific vision. The four are:

1. Gehenna, the eternal punishment of the damned (what we tend to think of as hell proper)
2. Abraham’s Bosom /Limbus Patrum (The limbo of the fathers, this is where Christ descended into hell to free the just)
3. Limbo/ Limbus Parvolorum (Limbo of Infants/Children who have original sin, but not personal sin.) As an aside, St. Thomas thought that Limbo and Abraham’s bosom were the same thing even though the “fathers” were freed by Christ during the harrowing of hell.

4)** Purgatory.**