I'm a Theistic Naturalist

[OneSheep]

I believe God Created the laws of nature, so it would not be a surprise that certain natures would arise given the right circumstances. However i believe they emerge in conjunction with natural physical processes.

While i do believe in miracles i don’t believe that biological evolution at any time involved a miraculous cause. It happened naturally. I believe in abiogenesis.

Hi IWG,

So, if something happens “naturally”, it does not involve God?

The forces and matter of the universe are not miraculous?

 

[JuanFlorencio]

I’m aware.

And, for him, there is no room for chance. Everything is absolutely determined. “IWantGod” on the other side, conceives a God that creates something and then leaves it alone just to see (or perhaps he doesn’t see) what happens.

 

[STT]

I’m a Theistic Naturalist.

I believe that God created natural processes with the intention that physical reality should naturally evolve without interference from an outside cause.

The reason i have come to this conclusion is because it makes no sense that God would create physical processes if physical processes were not the tool by which he intended to create things. It makes better sense of our experiences to think that the world has naturally evolved.

This means that i reject intelligent design and accept the blind watch maker concept.

I don’t think that anybody can provide a reason in favor or against what you propose.

You are partially correct in your observation that physical process which is governed by physical laws allows the evolution of universe. But this knowledge is based on observation and there is always a limitation on measurement of the state of a system to the last digit. This means that we cannot be sure that universe solely evolve based on laws of physics.

 

[wanstronian]

I’m a Theistic Naturalist.

I believe that God created natural processes with the intention that physical reality should naturally evolve without interference from an outside cause.

The reason i have come to this conclusion is because it makes no sense that God would create physical processes if physical processes were not the tool by which he intended to create things. It makes better sense of our experiences to think that the world has naturally evolved.

This means that i reject intelligent design and accept the blind watch maker concept.

What’s the difference between the world you describe and a world where God doesn’t exist in the first place?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

What’s the difference between the world you describe and a world where God doesn’t exist in the first place?

Good question.:thumbsup:It will be interesting to hear his answer.

 

[IWantGod]

What’s the difference between the world you describe and a world where God doesn’t exist in the first place?

The difference? In this case, Mind is ultimately the source of physical laws and subsequently the processes and qualities that arise from those laws. This would imply that physical processes “exist” for a reason even if the universe evolves naturally. There is a purpose towards which the universe is naturally evolving.

 

[IWantGod]

God sustains these physical processes and the existence of all creation. He doesn’t “leave them be.” God is neither blind to His creation nor has he abandoned it to its own devices. He knows the consequences of the physical laws he established. The idea that he reaches in and supernaturally moves the planets is perhaps silly, and I can understand your objection to that, but I object to you going further and comparing him to a blind watchmaker.

I never said that God is a blind watch maker, I am saying that the universe is designing itself. The universe is a blind watch maker.

 

[STT]

The difference? In this case, Mind is ultimately the source of physical laws and subsequently the processes and qualities that arise from those laws. This would imply that physical processes “exist” for a reason even if the universe evolves naturally.

That (the bold part) is very good observation but it is not a strong reason to believe the subsequent, what you are suggesting.

 

[IWantGod]

This means that we cannot be sure that universe solely evolve based on laws of physics.

All the evidence points to the conclusion that the universe is governed by physical processes. I have no reason to think that this is not always the case.

 

[STT]

All the evidence points to the conclusion that the universe is governed by physical processes. I have no reason to think that this is not always the case.

This means that you didn’t read my post carefully. As I mentioned we cannot be 100% sure that the universe evolves just based on laws of nature because of the limitation in the measurement of state of universe. We cannot simply measure the last digit.

 

[ericc]

I believe Jesus is God.

You just dug a hole that you can’t get out of.

If you believe Jesus is God, then you can’t deny the miracles that he performed such as raising the dead, expelling evil spirits, healing remotely and by words or touch or spit, walked on water, calm the seas, ascension into heaven etc. All of which you deny can happen in a naturalistic world. So did Jesus performed miracles or did he not? Is he God with all his powers or is he a God that wrought no miracles.

 

[wanstronian]

The difference? In this case, Mind is ultimately the source of physical laws and subsequently the processes and qualities that arise from those laws.

That’s your presupposition then. The universe can’t exist unless a “mind” created it in the first place.

This would imply that physical processes “exist” for a reason even if the universe evolves naturally. There is a purpose towards which the universe is naturally evolving.

It would imply that if you insisted on the presupposition, yes.

What is the purpose?

 

[ericc]

I am Catholic.

Catholicism and deism are not compatible. You are representing the deism position and not the catholic position. I hope you are aware of that.

 

[Aloysium]

The purpose has to do with the glory of God.

Creation, is a pretty much infinitely complex system arising out of a few simple principles. Physically speaking, we have space-time, and the four basic interactions of nature and the Law of Thermodynamics that go with it. The material universe is not all there is but is necessary to make us persons.

Our rational mind, connects the eternity of the Now, on which it is grounded, to the flow of change. Rather than being a mere spectator, our spirit may be understood as bringing about the existence of objects within the flux of the whole that is all space-time. Our ego, who and what we think we are in relation to the world is an expression of our human soul.

The soul, although emerging from what is changeless, is continuously changing in life. It does so through our actions, by which we decide the person we want to be within the passage of time. Humanity as a species has decided to make ourselves gods. Since God is Love, perfect relationality, union in the act of giving all to the other, to be gods is to ultimately divest ourselves of our very being. At the beginning of time, we have chosen the cross; we will give back to God the life we have been given, and thereby will know to the core of our being, not merely intellectually, the nature of good and evil. This has resulted from the choice of first temporal and ontological manifestation of humanity, to be a god without God at the centre of our being. Lost in the wilderness of an existence disconnected from love, a desert that is desert in every which direction, we cry out to God, who quenches our thirst and in Jesus Christ, the bread of eternal life, we are reunited with the Centre who is Existence itself - the Triune Godhead.

The purpose of all this is to become our true selves, loving, Christ-like, and it is thereby that creation communes with the Divine.

 

[wanstronian]

The purpose has to do with the glory of God.

Creation, is a pretty much infinitely complex system arising out of a few simple principles. Physically speaking, we have space-time, and the four basic interactions of nature and the Law of Thermodynamics that go with it. The material universe is not all there is but is necessary to make us persons.

Our rational mind, connects the eternity of the Now, on which it is grounded, to the flow of change. Rather than being a mere spectator, our spirit may be understood as bringing about the existence of objects within the flux of the whole that is all space-time. Our ego, who and what we think we are in relation to the world is an expression of our human soul.

The soul, although emerging from what is changeless, is continuously changing in life. It does so through our actions, by which we decide the person we want to be within the passage of time. Humanity as a species has decided to make ourselves gods. Since God is Love, perfect relationality, union in the act of giving all to the other, to be gods is to ultimately divest ourselves of our very being. At the beginning of time, we have chosen the cross; we will give back to God the life we have been given, and thereby will know to the core of our being, not merely intellectually, the nature of good and evil. This has resulted from the choice of first temporal and ontological manifestation of humanity, to be a god without God at the centre of our being. Lost in the wilderness of an existence disconnected from love, a desert that is desert in every which direction, we cry out to God, who quenches our thirst and in Jesus Christ, the bread of eternal life, we are reunited with the Centre who is Existence itself - the Triune Godhead.

The purpose of all this is to become our true selves, loving, Christ-like, and it is thereby that creation communes with the Divine.

With all due respect, my question was directed at the OP.

 

[inocente]

You are partially correct in your observation that physical process which is governed by physical laws allows the evolution of universe. But this knowledge is based on observation and there is always a limitation on measurement of the state of a system to the last digit. This means that we cannot be sure that universe solely evolve based on laws of physics.

But we can be more and more sure as measurements become more and more accurate. Your argument is therefore the appeal to ignorance fallacy.

 

[inocente]

The difference? In this case, Mind is ultimately the source of physical laws and subsequently the processes and qualities that arise from those laws. This would imply that physical processes “exist” for a reason even if the universe evolves naturally. There is a purpose towards which the universe is naturally evolving.

Belief in a creator who doesn’t intervene in the universe is known as deism of course. But then the Mind could have lost interest, or walked away, or ceased to exist yesterday.

 

[STT]

But we can be more and more sure as measurements become more and more accurate. Your argument is therefore the appeal to ignorance fallacy.

We have infinite digits so becoming more precise is never enough.

 

[IWantGod]

You just dug a hole that you can’t get out of.

If you believe Jesus is God, then you can’t deny the miracles that he performed such as raising the dead, expelling evil spirits, healing remotely and by words or touch or spit, walked on water, calm the seas, ascension into heaven etc. All of which you deny can happen in a naturalistic world. So did Jesus performed miracles or did he not? Is he God with all his powers or is he a God that wrought no miracles.

I have not denied that God can perform miracles. Miracles are things that happen as a response to human activity or prayers. I’m talking about how the physical world functions as a process.

 

[IWantGod]

Catholicism and deism are not compatible. You are representing the deism position and not the catholic position. I hope you are aware of that.

No i am not. I fully support the position that God continuously holds physical processes in existence. However, I reject intelligent design.