I'm about to lose it

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dsmantz

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A month or so ago I was contacted by a young woman who belongs to the Seventh Day Remnant church (not to be confused with SDA, although they stem from the SDA, claiming the church has fallen into apostasy) sending me various Scripture verses and a few videos from a website no longer allowed to be posted here, although anyone who’s done a quick Google search on the subject of the SDA and the CC has found it very quickly.

After breaking down the videos and allegations, I had to call it quits with the debate, due to lack of logical thought pattern and personal attacks against me, having absolutely nothing to do with Christian or Catholic apologetics. I believe it to be a last ditch effort in the debate to maintain some sort of upper hand, but it didn’t work.

So, she sent her good friend and former Catholic to the rescue. I know I probably shouldn’t waste my time trying to debate anyone, but the fact remains is that I find it fun and invigorating, especially when it comes to Catholic doctrine. Unfortunately, after reading, listening, and watching debates as well as engaging in quite a few with learned Protestants (usually Methodists and Baptists), I’ve latched on to a very Thomistic logical debate style.

This doesn’t sit well with these two women, who choose to string together verse after verse saying that they go together and are all prophesy, and completely out of line allegations against the Church citing various resources taken out of context. I simply can’t even finish reading the emails, I cannot wrap my head around the illogical and completely irrational thought pattern. I would love to pull it out being “must be a woman thing” (inside joke with my parish priest and my wife), but I’ve encountered this with many others. It’s much like this layout: Bunch of random stuff that I kinda string together using a straw man argument, but I say it with fervor and passion so I sound persuasive, don’t give you an opening to discuss further any topic or basis that I might have just mentioned, get upset and question your intelligence when you provide a decent response, give made up evidence or make allegations I’m conveniently unable to provide citations at the moment.

Does anyone else seem to run into this? Whatever happened to having a scholarly, logical, well formed debate?
 
dsmantz said:
A month or so ago I was contacted by a young woman who belongs to the Seventh Day Remnant church (not to be confused with SDA, although they stem from the SDA, claiming the church has fallen into apostasy) sending me various Scripture verses and a few videos from a website no longer allowed to be posted here, although anyone who’s done a quick Google search on the subject of the SDA and the CC has found it very quickly.

After breaking down the videos and allegations, I had to call it quits with the debate, due to lack of logical thought pattern and personal attacks against me, having absolutely nothing to do with Christian or Catholic apologetics. I believe it to be a last ditch effort in the debate to maintain some sort of upper hand, but it didn’t work.

So, she sent her good friend and former Catholic to the rescue. I know I probably shouldn’t waste my time trying to debate anyone, but the fact remains is that I find it fun and invigorating, especially when it comes to Catholic doctrine. Unfortunately, after reading, listening, and watching debates as well as engaging in quite a few with learned Protestants (usually Methodists and Baptists), I’ve latched on to a very Thomistic logical debate style.

This doesn’t sit well with these two women, who choose to string together verse after verse saying that they go together and are all prophesy, and completely out of line allegations against the Church citing various resources taken out of context. I simply can’t even finish reading the emails, I cannot wrap my head around the illogical and completely irrational thought pattern. I would love to pull it out being “must be a woman thing” (inside joke with my parish priest and my wife), but I’ve encountered this with many others. It’s much like this layout: Bunch of random stuff that I kinda string together using a straw man argument, but I say it with fervor and passion so I sound persuasive, don’t give you an opening to discuss further any topic or basis that I might have just mentioned, get upset and question your intelligence when you provide a decent response, give made up evidence or make allegations I’m conveniently unable to provide citations at the moment.

Does anyone else seem to run into this? Whatever happened to having a scholarly, logical, well formed debate?
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Believe me, that’s not a completely rare thing. I don’t know the exact reason as to why (perhaps scientists should conduct researches on this!) but I did notice a trend amongst some people to become just plain irrational and incoherent on a debate. It’s one of those mysteries of life, right up there with the one about why internet trolls - and sometimes, these very same folks - often have bad grammar and spelling. 🤷 😉
 
dsmantz said:
Does anyone else seem to run into this? Whatever happened to having a scholarly, logical, well formed debate?
Click to expand...
This is the reason that I don’t have theological discussions with Jehovah’s Witnesses. Their doctrine is so wacky that it seems only an irrational person could accept it in the first place. A person with a thoughtful and reasonable nature could not believe this.

And my few attempts (before I adopted my policy) went about like you described.

Having a reasonable theological discussion with an irrational person is akin to “casting your pearls before swine.”
 
dsmantz said:
Does anyone else seem to run into this? Whatever happened to having a scholarly, logical, well formed debate?
Click to expand...
I had a heck of a time laughing at the idea that someone accepted: theological/moral relativism. Couldn’t knock some sense of objectivity into my evangelical counterpart. I’m glad I’ve never had to talk to JW’s or SDA’s.
 
It is increasingly rare in fact I think, to find someone who is capable of having a reasoned debate without shortly becoming irrational and incoherent. Debating most people these days is actually pointless.🤷
 
Blacksword said:
It is increasingly rare in fact I think, to find someone who is capable of having a reasoned debate without shortly becoming irrational and incoherent. Debating most people these days is actually pointless.🤷
Click to expand...
When I see people coming to try and convert me I go the other way.
 
Trust me, I feel ya. Sometimes I feel like it’s a lost cause. A Protestant says something and quotes a few verses to prove it. A Catholic says something and has to proceed into expounding a level of studious knowledge that people only think comes from scientists these days. And then you either lose them, or they quote one “contradictory” verse and skip away having “won.” Seriously, it takes intellectual reasoning to prove Catholicism, so I wouldn’t be surprised if Satan is behind Baptist-style anti-intellectualism. He’s probably just chuckling his demonic butt off.

The problem is their dualistic conception of total depravity. If you bring reason into the game, everything tumbles on you.
 
I know how you guys feel. Most of the time, debating people makes me feel like this:

:banghead:

But on other forums, outside of Catholic Answers, I did help two people to become pro-life. All hope is not lost :getholy:. It is very useful to use their words against them. Just remember to pray for them, and hope they become logical.
 
WoundedIcon said:
Trust me, I feel ya. Sometimes I feel like it’s a lost cause. A Protestant says something and quotes a few verses to prove it. A Catholic says something and has to proceed into expounding a level of studious knowledge that people only think comes from scientists these days. And then you either lose them, or they quote one “contradictory” verse and skip away having “won.” Seriously, it takes intellectual reasoning to prove Catholicism, so I wouldn’t be surprised if Satan is behind Baptist-style anti-intellectualism. He’s probably just chuckling his demonic butt off.

The problem is their dualistic conception of total depravity. If you bring reason into the game, everything tumbles on you.
Click to expand...
Could be, though sometimes I don’t think Satan needs to exert that much effort. IMHO, we humans, due to our fallen natures and concupiscences, can pretty much doom ourselves. 😛
 
I personally think much of it stems from old fashioned pride. Many people can’t handle being wrong, and can’t admit when they are wrong. So they grab at absolutely anything so they don’t have to admit their errors.
 
It is not easy. Is it possible you have a greater effect in saving souls for christ by planting a few ideas (seeds) and leaving it at that? Let God do some of the work over time.

Also, God must extend the grace for some to come into the faith. Perhaps, God has decided some of these people are just not ready yet.

I any case, I have given up on getting worked up about debating with people outside the faith. I will tolerate a civil conversation or two but that is about it.
 
Well, and there’s the fact that the Devil is behind every bush in some of these folks eyes. There’s pride to it, sure, but a lot of them are used to a religious culture where you can’t just share each others’ common ground because “it’s a trap/compromise with the world/etc.” To surrender one part is to surrender all to some of them. They’re too reactionary, too used to truth being framed as the opposite of fallen nature. So they’ll pull a “the cross is foolishness to natural man” and be weary of anything that’s against their current religious framework and appealing to reason. Remember, they believe human reason is responsible for atheism, socialism, abortion, evolutionary theory, etc. There’s too much dualism bouncing around in there for you to use scholarship or (God forbid) philosophy with them.
 
I invited her here to the forms, so long as she can remain respectful and not resort to personal attacks. Especially since I’m in the process of taking care of an 8 month pregnant, hormonal wife, I simply don’t have the time to form any sort of decent retort.

I really need to find myself a spiritual director…
 
When someone can not give you the original source, tell them you will wait. After all, if they ask you a question you dont’ know the answer to, would you not admit you don’t know, but you will try to find out the answer.

As for anti-intellectualism that is a common american problem. Concerning the handful of biblical proof texts for being stupid, point out the hundreds of positive references to Priests in scripture – they were the highest educated in their times. Moses was well educated, as was Daniel and his friends.

God and Intelligence By Fulton J. Sheen
ivepress.org/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=28

Full Gospel, Fractured Minds? By Rick M. Nanez

books.google.com/books?id=dlFb6S_DfOkC&q=anti-intellectualism&dq=anti-intellectualism&hl=en&ei=qWwHTqK6JMGjsQKzxonkDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwADge

books.google.com/books?id=1Z6L9U35ZhcC&pg=PA180&dq=anti-intellectualism+christian&hl=en&ei=4mwHTqLoMqyPsAK5wsHqDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=anti-intellectualism%20christian&f=false

books.google.com/books?id=lAmaAAAAIAAJ&q=anti-intellectualism+christian&dq=anti-intellectualism+christian&hl=en&ei=cG0HTufHCKSpsALFsIjMDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAzge

Habits of the mind: intellectual life as a Christian calling By James W. Sire

The Gospel and the Mind: Recovering and Shaping the Intellectual Life By Bradley G. Green

Think: The Life of the Mind and the Love of God By John Piper, Mark A. Noll

Love Your God with All Your Mind: The Role of Reason in the Life of the Soul By J. P. Moreland

books.google.com/books?id=09MlAQAAIAAJ&q=anti-intellectualism+christian&dq=anti-intellectualism+christian&hl=en&ei=HW4HTtW4Io6ugQfUh4DYDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBTg8
 
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