I'm against church shopping

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lovesMary

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I notice a lot of people around here advocating switching to another (Catholic) church in order to get the right pastor, liturgical style, CCD, outreach programs, etc.

I just want to go on record that I disagree with this for several reasons, which I’ll list.
  1. I believe in doing things locally as a general rule of living. I think it strengthens local communities.
  2. I think commuting a longer distance to go to church is wasteful of time and gasoline.
  3. I think the pre-Vatican 2 rule of enrollment in ones geographically closest parish fostered a stronger local church
  4. I think our desire to church shop is a symptom of our consumeristic mobile society, from which I wish to get away from.
  5. I think Sunday should be a day of rest, not a day to commute a long distance, go shopping, or do anything that creates work for others.
  6. I think it fosters division within the church.
 
I also figure that if the local parish is so bad that you aren’t comfortable in it, instead of copping out and finding one that you like, you should be in that parish trying to effect the change you want. That’s how we come up with better parishes - not leaving the worst ones out to dry, but by helping them get better.
 
I’m in favor of church shopping when the situation warrants it.
  1. My new home parish (been there about two years now, hope to stay permanently unless a change in jobs forces me to relocate) has a beautiful Perpetual Adoration Eucharistic Chapel which is open 24/7.
  2. The Mass is reverent. There are no dirty jokes during the sermon like I encountered in a former parish and about which I did in fact speak to the pastor. Jesus Christ is shown proper respect in my new parish, and good-quality sermons mention the importance of the sacraments and promote the teachings of the Church and the words of Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI.
  3. The people in the pews are polite. In former parish experiences, there was a parishioner who literally walked into me in the middle of the pew and explained that it was because she wanted to talk to her friend, and in another case one wanted to forcibly prevent me from using the kneeler by quite literally arm-wrestling as I was trying to get the kneeler down. I’ve also run into rude ushers in former parish experiences, who in one case literally laughed in my face about the lack of silence in the presence of Our Eucharistic Lord exposed on the altar for adoration. In my present parish, both the parishioners and ushers are courteous and considerate of one another, so attending Mass is a peaceful experience rather than a stressful one. And in fact, in my new parish, instead of lay greeters, it’s common for a priest to stand at the door and greet people in a friendly way as they enter and leave.
  4. I am happy in my new parish.
  5. And yes, I will vote with my feet. Because when you’ve tried getting involved with the liturgy committee, speaking with the pastor, speaking with ushers, and nothing changes for the better, there are times when the solution is to shake the dust from your sandals and move on.
My first parish in Ohio was a seven-minute drive. My home parish now is a fifteen-minute drive.

Further, I attend the Latin Mass parish downtown whenever I’m able. I for one think it’s well worth the price of gas. 🙂 👍 :cool:

~~ the phoenix
 
I don’t agree, but I am not about to debate you, nor am I of the mood to list my reasons for being able to go to a Catholic parish where one is comfortable and a contributing member. You don’t sound open to debate or discussion, just to stating your own slant on things, OP.

That said- EVERY CATHOLIC is allowed by canon law to meet their Sunday obligation wherever they choose, no matter where they are registered or bound by geographical boundary. I cannot remember being any different under the 1917 canon. As a kid, we lived in one parish geographically, made very minor contributions there, but went to school and Mass in another parish. I am in my fifties. So this is nothing new.

Can. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.

Byzantine and other Eastern Churches- which are every bit as Catholic as Latin Rite parishes- drive all over every weekend. So do those who participate in parishes in the US, Canada and Australia where there is the parish has been designated as ethnic, such as German or Italian.

I might further state that where the parishes are allowed to exist in a “free market” setting, pastors tend to actually work at being pastors. Those that do not lose “business” or close, but other parishes thrive and have large numbers. It’s a more economical use of property, fuel, etc.
 
About the gas and location thing - some people live inside one Parish’s boundries and attend there yet there is a Parish that is physically closer.
 
I agree. If people leave then the local parish weakens. It ends up hurting the community more. I’m philosophically opposed to that. Even if we, ourselves, don’t have the time or tempermant to be a leader towards change, we will be there to follow when a leader arises.
 
I disagree with you on this, lovesMary. I know that Mass is Mass no matter which church you attend - and I don’t deny the validity of the Mass from one church to the next. However, while fostering stronger ties within the community is important, the spiritual nourishment one gets can vary drastically from one church to another. I think it is important to ‘shop around’ to find a liturgy which appeals more to you and aids your spiritual life best - by, for example, the quality of preaching, the style of music (or absence thereof), even the church building. Of course, I don’t suggest travelling all Sunday morning to go to Mass - I know that if one lives in a small town or in an area where the Catholic Church does not have a strong presence it is difficult to even contemplate shopping around. Here in Ireland, in a large town or city there could be five or more churches in one square kilometre. In my case, my parish church is a post-Vatican II style church. I was never a fan of their music - the childrens choir usually sang modern church music, the accompaniment for this had been pre-recorded on a keyboard. The atmosphere, unfortunately, was often zoo-like with children running around & adults and children alike talking away, showing little reverence to the Mass. I know the priest there, and he does his best, but I never really felt comfortable attending Mass there. I attend Mass in the local cathedral (I have to now anyway, as I am one of the organists!), and I much prefer the liturgy there. The music at the sung Mass is Gregorian Chant and Sacred Polyphony, two of the priests are keen on the increased use of Latin in the Mass, and there is a more prayerful atmosphere. I do understand where you’re coming from, lovesMary, but I do not agree that doing your best to enrich your spiritual life by finding the best liturgy results in division within the Church - in fact, I would argue that it can strengthen and enrich the Church community.
 
Church shopping or is one called to a church?

Quite different scenario in 1983. I had a co-worker who was not even Catholic and was singing in our cathedral choir. She knew I was Catholic and she knew I sang and she invited me to join the cathedral choir which I did.

In 1984 # 2 son came along and as we no longer were attending our local geographic parish, DW and I said “let’s join the cathedral parish”. Easier said than done back then. To do such I (as head of the household) had to be interviewed by the local parish priest - who happened to be from Ireland. My Irish family has been here in Louisiana since the 1830s (before the famine) and I said “no sweat”.

Wrong. Sorry Father I don’t want to sing Glory and Praise. I dearly love the associate pastor (who is my age and knows what it means to grow up in New Orleans) but I don’t like his running up and down the aisles during Mass. I grew up as an Irish American Catholic with a devotion to now Blessed Fr. Seelos and the Masses at the Cathedral felt like Mass. I left the interview with Fr. feeling “cast out”.

The next week I recieved a letter releasing me from the local parish with the caveat that "if I died, he (the pastor) would not respond. Nor could we be buried in DW’s ancestral parish cemetary…bell, book, and candle.

I gave said letter to the cathedral rector who read it, turned red in the face, and said “I’ll take care of it”.

We’ve never looked back. Was this parish shopping or was this an act of the Holy Spirit? Things have loosened up remarkably since 1983. I don’t live in that parish. We have moved 25 miles away and no, I am not going to go to our local geographic parish. We’ve spent the last 25 years as members of the cathedral parish and we drive 25 miles one way.

I’m for parish shopping. All of us need to find a parish that meets our spiritual needs. My spiritual needs are not met with the abundant abuses I have experienced in my local geographic parish.
 
I also figure that if the local parish is so bad that you aren’t comfortable in it, instead of copping out and finding one that you like, you should be in that parish trying to effect the change you want. That’s how we come up with better parishes - not leaving the worst ones out to dry, but by helping them get better.
We tried, but the pastor
  1. Continued to give blessings, “In the name of the Father, and the mother and the Holy Spirit.”
  2. Continued to quote from liberal, dissenting sources in his homilies.
  3. Was known to change the Gospel reading so it would coincide w/ songs the protestant song leader wanted to sing
  4. Repeatedly told us in homilies that everyone would go to Heaven, but Catholics would have more fun when they got there.
  5. Told crude jokes in his homilies (“Soneone asked me if it was OK to have sex before Mass. I told them yes, as long as they don’t block the isle.”)
We could not, in good conscience, raise our kids in that parish.
 
We as lay catholics have a RIGHT to a properly celebrated Mass with due reverence that followis the GIRM. If one has to travel to get that, one should.

There are many other valid reasons not to go to your local parish, e.g. children attending school at another parish, or a particular ministry you feel called to, or to have Mass in the EF, or a particular language or national parish.

All perfectly allowable, and good in most cases.

God Bless
 
I agree in principal with OP, but if it is simply impossible to attend a proper liturgy in the closest parish, it may be a matter of one’s spiritual health to go elsewhere. same thing goes for heterodox teachings in CCD or the school or in the preaching. The move would be after reasonable efforts to initiate change have been taken and the pastoral leadership seems locked in invincible ignorance (or invincible obstinancy).

DD has a Catholic church right in their subdivision and we could not understand why she prefers to drive to the next town, but two trips there sealed it. Most outrageous was bread that is invalid matter (we know because recipe was published on a handout for families), but rest of liturgy, preaching, songs etc, and after-Mass activities lived up (or down) to all our expectations. That they establish in a good parish now is critical so they can have grandkids on waiting list for the better school.

Yes the problem parish and former pastor have been reported to the bishop many times, they do have a new pastor this year, but it is very hard to change entrenched habits because “we have always done it this way.”
 
I also figure that if the local parish is so bad that you aren’t comfortable in it, instead of copping out and finding one that you like, you should be in that parish trying to effect the change you want. That’s how we come up with better parishes - not leaving the worst ones out to dry, but by helping them get better.
That is fine for the adults, but a parent should not expose their children to bad liturgies.

It is much better for the child to grow up in an environment where the liturgy is done in a way that is 100% in conformance with the published rubrics.

In that way, the child knows what to expect and will be able to note when a liturgy is done in a way that is not supposed to happen. And the parents can use that as an example of the necessity of the virtue of obedience.
 
There is something very Protestant about shopping for a parish. The problem rests with those who seemingly continue to shop. The first problem arises and they are off again typically because if the pride and not the Mass at the parish they are leaving.

In my Byzantine-Ruthenian parish, we received new “missalettes” some time ago to reflect the Changes in the Divine Liturgy – most of it reverting back to more ancient practices. A few people left to their next parish because they believed THEY were the arbiters of what is “better.” I feel sorry for those people.
 
I notice a lot of people around here advocating switching to another (Catholic) church in order to get the right pastor, liturgical style, CCD, outreach programs, etc.

I just want to go on record that I disagree with this for several reasons, which I’ll list.
  1. I believe in doing things locally as a general rule of living. I think it strengthens local communities.
  2. I think commuting a longer distance to go to church is wasteful of time and gasoline.
  3. I think the pre-Vatican 2 rule of enrollment in ones geographically closest parish fostered a stronger local church
  4. I think our desire to church shop is a symptom of our consumeristic mobile society, from which I wish to get away from.
  5. I think Sunday should be a day of rest, not a day to commute a long distance, go shopping, or do anything that creates work for others.
  6. I think it fosters division within the church.
Bah, once I realized that the parish I should be attending has an openly gay lector (meaning he has a gay partner and gay lifestyle) claps for songs during normal Sunday Mass, teaches that all faiths are equal to our faith… and my particular favourite…uses the puppet during the homily…I gave up and moved on.

Of course, I then had to move on from about 10 churches until settling on a church over an hour away.

:rolleyes:

Side note: what is with the number of middle aged, creepy looking, single men who want to be the “childrens’ helpers” during Mass? (You know, where the children all leave to do their little craft while we continue Mass.)

Another sidenote: what is with all the parishes who allow spoken prayers during the prayers of the faithful? You have random parishioners saying “For the election of so and so, we pray to the Lord” or “That more people will donate to women’s clinics, we pray to the Lod” 🤷
 
Bishop Anthony Fisher is organising World Youth Day in Sydney. He was asked in a radio interview: “What happens when the bubble bursts?”. Young people go to World Youth Day, then return to their parish. Here is part of his answer:
“That’s a very reasonable fear. And I have been saying to priests all around the country and to bishops that it would be a terrible let down for young people if they come home excited about their faith, wanting to learn more about it, wanting to lead and to serve to be more actively engaged and they come home to a dead parish or to people that just aren’t interested in them or who say to them look we’ll let you speak for a minute after communion to tell people about your experience but then we want to get back to normal please. …”
Then he spoke about approaches to improving things, but concluded:
“Again I’m not naïve. I think there’ll be places that just stay much the same and then young people **will gravitate to places **where there is more life or more opportunity to express themselves spiritually and to lead and to serve.”
(The full transcript is at abc.net.au/rn/encounter/stories/2008/2257032.htm#transcript with this question near the end.)
 
I agree. If people leave then the local parish weakens. It ends up hurting the community more. I’m philosophically opposed to that. Even if we, ourselves, don’t have the time or tempermant to be a leader towards change, we will be there to follow when a leader arises.
Except when young children are involved, where catechism class is a new age experiment and the Mass is full of abuses. That is not the example I want for my child. We drive 20 to 25 minutes to Mass instead of 10. I drive further to my best friend’s house and to work. Mass is by far more important than social visits or even my job, I gladly spend the gas.
 
I agree. If people leave then the local parish weakens. It ends up hurting the community more. I’m philosophically opposed to that. Even if we, ourselves, don’t have the time or tempermant to be a leader towards change, we will be there to follow when a leader arises.
Except when young children are involved, where catechism class is a new age experiment and the Mass is full of abuses. That is not the example I want for my child. We drive 20 to 25 minutes to Mass instead of 10. I drive further to my best friend’s house and to work. Mass is by far more important than social visits or even my job, I gladly spend the gas.
 
The forum says there’s a database error when I try to view the second page of this thread, let’s see if I can post something.
 
My parents chose not to attend Mass at the neighborhood parish. There was way too much of a charismatic influence and my father believed that it was not conducive to a reverent liturgy (much less fidelity to the Mass). They certainly didn’t want me exosed to anything strange.

That is why my father chose to go to the downtown parish that was his first home when he moved to Laredo as a child. Our family remained in the parish for most of my life; we even had my mother’s funeral there.

However, when the new pastor started doing things that were in serious violation of the GIRM, Redemptionis Sacramentum, Pashcale Solemnitatis and the Ciruclar Letter on the Sacrament of Penance, my father left the parish.

Lovesmary, it was not an easy decision. The priest refused to minister to the elderly to the point that several of them died without receiving Last Rites. A certified letter to the bishop was never acknowledged. This prompted my father to write to the Holy See and he received acknowledgement of his letter from no less than Francis Cardinal Arinze’s personal secretary.

I, too, have had to pick up my stakes and move, especially when the conditions were severe.

For those of us who truly care about the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, it is painful to remain in a parish where the GIRM, Redemptionis Sacramentum, Paschale Solemnitatis and the other documents are routinely ignored, disregarded and shunned.

As Cardinal Arinze said not too terribly long ago:
  1. Harm Done by Non-Observance of Liturgical Norms
Looking at things from a different perspective, we can appreciate negatively the importance of the observance of liturgical norms if we list some of the damages which can be introduced by ignoring these norms.
Liturgical abuses can confuse the congregation and occasion uncertainty, perplexity, scandal, opposition and factionalism. In more severe cases, they can obscure the Catholic faith and prevent the people from sharing fully in the celebration of the mysteries of Christ. To ignore liturgical norms can also reinforce a false understanding of freedom. In ecumenical efforts it introduces problems and sometimes a wrong presentation of the Catholic faith.17
To ignore liturgical norms can in a subtle way introduce secularization and gradual banalization into the liturgy. In this short-sighted vision, a church building may no longer be seen as a sacred place. Do the people then come to church for Mass as to a “meeting” like in a stadium or congress hall? Do they talk in church as if it were not appreciated as a sacred place separated from secular daily events? Does this tendency regard the norms on the use of liturgical vestments as triumphalism? Does it lead to a type of secular leveling down which prefers to say cup instead of chalice, plate instead of paten, dress instead of vestment, and president instead of priest celebrant?
To ignore liturgical norms can gradually introduce such erosions.
A parish that routinely ignores liturgical norms is already in a weakened state and is suffering from serious atrophy. One cannot expect faithful Catholics to remain in a parish that gives little to no importance to the proper celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
 
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