I'm calling on everyone here in this forum EXCEPT Catholics !!!

[Richard_Abanes]

Steve: Sin is not mentioned anywhere in that passage from Romans.

RA: I noticed that out of ALL the things you underlined, indeed out of ALL the things listed, you chose NOT to underline only one thing – i.e, nor anything else in all creation.

Are you serious? I mean, seriously? You didn’t highlight the very thing that answers your own question? I’m not really sure how to even interpret that level of…well…I can’t bring myself to even pick a word.

Not only is *sin *something that is “in creation,” but the actual vehicle through which sin must be activated (i.e. a *human being * - we sin) is also in creation. Consequently, neither we ourselves, nor anything we can do (e.g., sin), can separate is from God’s love. WHY? Because we belong to God.

We are God’s children by adoption. We are his. We are bought by his blood. We are in his hands. The Father gave us to Jesus. And Jesus likewise holds us in his hands, too. We are his. And no one, as the scriptures says, can take us from his hands – including we ourselves.

I can’t believe you actually just didn’t underline that very line that brings into focus what we’re discussing. Amazing. :doh2:

I;m certainly about as non-anti-Catholic as anyone can get, but that was really troubling, IMHO.

RA

 

[adstrinity]

Steve: Sin is not mentioned anywhere in that passage from Romans.

RA: I noticed that out of ALL the things you underlined, indeed out of ALL the things listed, you chose NOT to underline only one thing – i.e, nor anything else in all creation.

Are you serious? I mean, seriously? You didn’t highlight the very thing that answers your own question? I’m not really sure how to even interpret that level of…well…I can’t bring myself to even pick a word.

Not only is *sin *something that is “in creation,” but the actual vehicle through which sin must be activated (i.e. a *human being *- we sin) is also in creation. Consequently, neither we ourselves, nor anything we can do (e.g., sin), can separate is from God’s love. WHY? Because we belong to God.

We are God’s children by adoption. We are his. We are bought by his blood. We are in his hands. The Father gave us to Jesus. And Jesus likewise holds us in his hands, too. We are his. And no one, as the scriptures says, can take us from his hands – including we ourselves.

I can’t believe you actually just didn’t underline that very line that brings into focus what we’re discussing. Amazing. :doh2:

I;m certainly about as non-anti-Catholic as anyone can get, but that was really troubling, IMHO.

RA

Where does this fail? God didn’t create sin. Sin is not part of creation.

 

[Richard_Abanes]

AD: Where does this fail? God didn’t create sin. Sin is not part of creation.

RA: I feel like I am talking to Mormons. The verses doesn’t say “nor anything else God created,” it says “nor anything else in all creation” - IN IN IN IN IN creation (i.e., in the realm of our time-space continuum).

God also did not create “death” (Adam did that), or “distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword.” Mkay? if you want to go that route…

But even if your response had any merit, which it doesn’t, God did create us – we who are the one’s who sin. And the whole argument is that we can separate ourselves from God. But we, as creations of God, or as things “in creation” (take your pick) cannot separate us from the love of God. Praise the Lord for that one.

R.A.

 

[adstrinity]

AD: Where does this fail? God didn’t create sin. Sin is not part of creation.

RA: I feel like I am talking to Mormons. The verses doesn’t say “nor anything else God created,” it says “nor anything else in all creation” - IN IN IN IN IN creation (i.e., in the realm of our time-space continuum).

God also did not create “death” (Adam did that), or “distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword.” Mkay? if you want to go that route…

But even if your response had any merit, which it doesn’t, God did create us – we who are the one’s who sin. And the whole argument is that we can separate ourselves from God. But we, as creations of God, or as things “in creation” (take your pick) cannot separate us from the love of God. Praise the Lord for that one.

R.A.

Where does this fail? Jesus said we can. Where else does this fail? You are being uncharitable.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

AD: Where does this fail? God didn’t create sin. Sin is not part of creation.

RA: I feel like I am talking to Mormons. The verses doesn’t say “nor anything else God created,” it says “nor anything else in all creation” - IN IN IN IN IN creation (i.e., in the realm of our time-space continuum).

God also did not create “death” (Adam did that), or “distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword.” Mkay? if you want to go that route…

But even if your response had any merit, which it doesn’t, God did create us – we who are the one’s who sin. And the whole argument is that we can separate ourselves from God. But we, as creations of God, or as things “in creation” (take your pick) cannot separate us from the love of God. Praise the Lord for that one.

R.A.

Here’s the rub. The passage we’re discussing talks about what can separate us from the LOVE of God. D’you think people go to Hell because God doesn’t LOVE them anymore? Hardly. We can choose to serve God or serve self. While we were yet sinners, Christ loved us enough to be brutally murdered for our salvation. He tells us we must abide in Him and bear good fruit, or be cut off. The branches that do not bear fruit are cut off and burned. It’s not because He doesn’t love us anymore, but because we have chosen not to abide and bear fruits “meet for repentance.” We must daily take up our cross and follow Him to have everlasting life. If we stop following Him we will be cut off, unless we repent and return to Him.

You keep saying you grew up Catholic, and I do believe you, but your posts make it clear that you don’t know Catholicism as well as you think you do, particularly when you compare it to a false religion. Your interpretation of Catholicism sounds more like you learned it from Chick Tracts. Just sayin’…

 

[M_Oliver]

Would you be so kind as to give me your 3 biggest reasons as to why…the Catholic Church is unequivocably WRONG in it’s teachings and practices.

No, but I’ll give you one:

For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe. (1 Timothy 4:10 KJVR)

These things command and teach. (1 Timothy 4:11 KJVR)

They don’t believe these Scriptures.

 

[adstrinity]

No, but I’ll give you one:

For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe. (1 Timothy 4:10 KJVR)

These things command and teach. (1 Timothy 4:11 KJVR)

They don’t believe these Scriptures.

Yes we do. We evangelize the world.

"6 These things proposing to the brethren, thou shalt be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished up in the words of faith, and of the good doctrine which thou hast attained unto. 7 But avoid foolish and old wives’ fables: and exercise thyself unto godliness. 8 For bodily exercise is profitable to little: but godliness is profitable to all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. 9 A faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we labor and are reviled, because we hope in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of the faithful. 11 These things command and teach. 12 Let no man despise thy youth: but be thou an example of the faithful in word, in conversation, in charity, in faith, in chastity. 13 Till I come, attend unto reading, to exhortation, and to doctrine. 14 Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood. 15 Meditate upon these things, be wholly in these things: that thy profiting may be manifest to all. "
(DR)

 

[M_Oliver]

Yes we do. We evangelize the world.

"6 These things proposing to the brethren, thou shalt be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished up in the words of faith, and of the good doctrine which thou hast attained unto. 7 But avoid foolish and old wives’ fables: and exercise thyself unto godliness. 8 For bodily exercise is profitable to little: but godliness is profitable to all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. 9 A faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we labor and are reviled, because we hope in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of the faithful. 11 These things command and teach. 12 Let no man despise thy youth: but be thou an example of the faithful in word, in conversation, in charity, in faith, in chastity. 13 Till I come, attend unto reading, to exhortation, and to doctrine. 14 Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood. 15 Meditate upon these things, be wholly in these things: that thy profiting may be manifest to all. "
(DR)

So you quoted another translation. That is far from a UNIVERSAL teaching of the catholic church. Denial is dangerous. You know you cannot prove that the ENTIRE roman catholic church teaches that ALL humanity will be saved. If one cannot do that they are not ONE in their beliefs. Correct?

 

[Richard_Abanes]

**Pixie: **Your interpretation of Catholicism sounds more like you learned it from Chick Tracts. Just sayin’…

RA: LOL. Oh my gosh. I don’t know how you enjoy working your way to heaven, Pixie.

As for me, I know that I am already accepted by God, and I will be there, according to scripture, and the according to the all-powerful sovereign Lord who saved me by his shed blood on the cross, thereby accomplishing what I could never do – even with him empowering me.

I do wish you could know for certain, as I do, that if you died today you would be instantly with him, or as Paul said, "to absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8).

But we all must find our way…

And, TBH, this whole issue we are talking about here, is only one of multiple problems within the RCC. There are certainly a variety of Protestants who come very close to what you are saying about faith + works (e.g. those who hold to Arminianism like Calvary Chapel pastor, Raul Ries). So, don’t think that I am consumed with this salvation thing. It’s only one of several problems I see with RCC.

I still love all you guys – my separated brothers and sisters.

RA

R.A.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Would you be so kind as to give me your 3 biggest reasons as to why, according to your denomination and faith, the Catholic Church is unequivocably WRONG in it’s teachings and practices.

My reason for asking this is because I will then research each of the reasons you give, and personally satisfy myself as to their validity, or not, for myself, as part of my journey into faith.

I hope this question does not break any forum rules; Im not looking to give a platform for anti catholic rhetoric and respect the fact this is a catholic board. I merely want to try and get into one place, i.e. here, what the main arguements are against Catholicism, and then investigate them for myself. I thought it would be the most expedient way to do this. If Im wrong, I apologise to the admins, and please delete this post as you see fit.

This is really for my own education and exploration, and trying to get the things I want to research into some sort of ordered fashion.

Bruxilda.

Ag not, I could not help but to follow this interesting thread. I understand you not wanting a Catholic response to post, but you have left the Catholic church a big target out there, making it difficult not to respond to the many misinformed accusations. That is what makes CAF interesting. So I will just end with my observation; take note to how non catholics and protestants hold to the “I” believe interpretation of scripture and accusations of the Catholic church. When a Catholic responds, it is generally supported by the bible, apostolic teaching, the Magesterium, saints unchanged faith through the Holy Spirit always. In summary in your travels, hear to what authority one holds to be it “I” alone biblical interpretation theologies or unchanged Catholic authority. You will also find that the “I” 's have a misinformed or lack of information of Catholic doctrine and apostolic christian belief.

Peace and may God be with you on your journey, praying for you
Gabriel of 12

 

[tGette]

Ag not, I could not help but to follow this interesting thread. I understand you not wanting a Catholic response to post, but you have left the Catholic church a big target out there, making it difficult not to respond to the many misinformed accusations. That is what makes CAF interesting. So I will just end with my observation; take note to how non catholics and protestants hold to the “I” believe interpretation of scripture and accusations of the Catholic church. When a Catholic responds, it is generally supported by the bible, apostolic teaching, the Magesterium, saints unchanged faith through the Holy Spirit always. In summary in your travels, hear to what authority one holds to be it “I” alone biblical interpretation theologies or unchanged Catholic authority. You will also find that the “I” 's have a misinformed or lack of information of Catholic doctrine and apostolic christian belief.

Peace and may God be with you on your journey, praying for you
Gabriel of 12

I hope you do not mind this “I” response:

I believe all the Catholic Church teaches to be true!

 

[adstrinity]

So you quoted another translation. That is far from a UNIVERSAL teaching of the catholic church. Denial is dangerous. You know you cannot prove that the ENTIRE roman catholic church teaches that ALL humanity will be saved. If one cannot do that they are not ONE in their beliefs. Correct?

That’s right, I quoted the Catholic translation in context. We have this in our Bible’s, too. We wrote it, we believe it. We evangelize the world.

Jesus Christ is the Saviour of all Men (no other Saviour), but, that does not mean all men will be saved.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

So you quoted another translation. That is far from a UNIVERSAL teaching of the catholic church. Denial is dangerous. You know you cannot prove that the ENTIRE roman catholic church teaches that ALL humanity will be saved. If one cannot do that they are not ONE in their beliefs. Correct?

Universalist, are you? I’m fairly certain that most everyone posting on this thread (other than yourself) would disagree that all humanity will be saved.

We do very much believe that Jesus died for all the sins of the whole world, (Calvinists would say that He only died for those who will be saved) but some people have and will reject his free gift of salvation.

 

[Richard_Abanes]

GAB: So I will just end with my observation; take note to how non catholics and protestants hold to the “I” believe interpretation of scripture and accusations of the Catholic church.

RA: Let me help – go ahead and preface all my comments with, “Scripture teaches…”

You can also add a few other phrases where needed: “in context,” “according to the language,” “in light of other passages,” “in order to be consistent with the teachings of Jesus.”

Take your pick and place them where needed.

GAB: When a Catholic responds, it is generally supported by the bible, apostolic teaching, the Magesterium, saints unchanged faith through the Holy Spirit always.

**RA: **Unchanged??? Well, I suppose that depends on which dogma you’re talking about and in which century. Moreover, you can replace the “I believe” with “that Pope said” or “the church now says” etc. etc etc. And as for “generally supported by the bible” I think “generally” is an excellent qualifier. Generally does not mean always. And it’s those places where the Bible doesn’t support the RCC view that we have some problems.

GAB: You will also find that the “I” 's have a misinformed or lack of information of Catholic doctrine and apostolic christian belief.

RA: You will also find that the “_________” (fill in any RCC authority) have a misinformed or lack of information of biblical doctrine and apostolic christian belief going back to before the RCC became a political entity and started using doctrine/dogma to control the masses in their political push to power (bro, read history).

GAB: Peace and may God be with you on your journey, praying for you

RA: Ditto.

RA

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Oh my gosh. I don’t know how you enjoy working your way to heaven, Pixie.

It is a joy to allow God to work through me. “Not by works of righteousness which WE have done…” I’m not hoping to get to Heaven by my own bootstraps. It’s all because of the Grace and Mercy of God the Almighty Father, who sent His Son to die for me.

John 6:27 ~"Labor for the food that leads to eternal life”

Matthew 7:16- 23
16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn {bushes,} nor figs from thistles, are they?
17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Matt 13:18-23
18 "Hear then the parable of the sower.
19 "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, the evil {one} comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.
20 "And the one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word, and immediately receives it with joy;
21 yet he has no {firm} root in himself, but is {only} temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
22 "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
23 “And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit, and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”

Matthew 16:27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds.

Matt 19:16-26
16 And behold, one came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?”
17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is {only} One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Matt 24:10-13
10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

As for me, I know that I am already accepted by God, and I will be there, according to scripture, and the according to the all-powerful sovereign Lord who saved me by his shed blood on the cross, thereby accomplishing what I could never do – even with him empowering me.

I do wish you could know for certain, as I do, that if you died today you would be instantly with him, or as Paul said, "to absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8).

But we all must find our way…

I actually have more assurance of my salvation as a Catholic than I did when I was an eternal security embracing Baptist, truth be told.

And, TBH, this whole issue we are talking about here, is only one of multiple problems within the RCC. There are certainly a variety of Protestants who come very close to what you are saying about faith + works (e.g. those who hold to Arminianism like Calvary Chapel pastor, Raul Ries). So, don’t think that I am consumed with this salvation thing. It’s only one of several problems I see with RCC.

I still love all you guys – my separated brothers and sisters.

RA

I submit that the problem is not with Catholicism.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I hope you do not mind this “I” response:

I believe all the Catholic Church teaches to be true!

Thank you tGette; the difference between your "I’ is that you hold to the teaching authority of Jesus Christ. The other “I” 's make themselves their own teaching authority. This is the fundamental difference.

 

[adstrinity]

GAB: So I will just end with my observation; take note to how non catholics and protestants hold to the “I” believe interpretation of scripture and accusations of the Catholic church.

RA: Let me help – go ahead and preface all my comments with, “Scripture teaches…”

You can also add a few other phrases where needed: “in context,” “according to the language,” “in light of other passages,” “in order to be consistent with the teachings of Jesus.”

Take your pick and place them where needed.

GAB: When a Catholic responds, it is generally supported by the bible, apostolic teaching, the Magesterium, saints unchanged faith through the Holy Spirit always.

**RA: **Unchanged??? Well, I suppose that depends on which dogma you’re talking about and in which century. Moreover, you can replace the “I believe” with “that Pope said” or “the church now says” etc. etc etc. And as for “generally supported by the bible” I think “generally” is an excellent qualifier. Generally does not mean always. And it’s those places where the Bible doesn’t support the RCC view that we have some problems.

GAB: You will also find that the “I” 's have a misinformed or lack of information of Catholic doctrine and apostolic christian belief.

RA: You will also find that the “_________” (fill in any RCC authority) have a misinformed or lack of information of biblical doctrine and apostolic christian belief going back to before the RCC became a political entity and started using doctrine/dogma to control the masses in their political push to power (bro, read history).

GAB: Peace and may God be with you on your journey, praying for you

RA: Ditto.

RA

Where does this fail? Lots of generalizations, no facts, and it’s easily refuted for those who take the time to look things up.

 

[Richard_Abanes]

BTW Pixie, that LOL was NOT at you, it was at CHICK TRACT comment. Just wanted to be clear.

RA

 

[Pixie_Dust]

BTW Pixie, that LOL was NOT at you, it was at CHICK TRACT comment. Just wanted to be clear.

RA

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

GAB: So I will just end with my observation; take note to how non catholics and protestants hold to the “I” believe interpretation of scripture and accusations of the Catholic church.

RA: Let me help – go ahead and preface all my comments with, “Scripture teaches…”

You can also add a few other phrases where needed: “in context,” “according to the language,” “in light of other passages,” “in order to be consistent with the teachings of Jesus.”

Take your pick and place them where needed.

GABRIEL
I would if the bible can speak, it only records what has been handed on. The Scriptures do not teach. You have to hold to the teaching authority Jesus Christ left on earth to interpret the scriptures what they reveal.

GAB: When a Catholic responds, it is generally supported by the bible, apostolic teaching, the Magesterium, saints unchanged faith through the Holy Spirit always.

**RA: **Unchanged??? Well, I suppose that depends on which dogma you’re talking about and in which century. Moreover, you can replace the “I believe” with “that Pope said” or “the church now says” etc. etc etc. And as for “generally supported by the bible” I think “generally” is an excellent qualifier. Generally does not mean always. And it’s those places where the Bible doesn’t support the RCC view that we have some problems.

GABRIEL
The dogma you are familiar with throughout the centuries are not new dogmas. but protected apostolic teachings from changing, during attacks against the apostolic Traditions and teachings. Show me a date when a dogma was counciled by the Catholic church, and I will show a dogma believed from scripture, sacred Tradition, apostolic teaching defined in an age when it came under attack to be changed, not invented as you mistakenly have been misinformed. Give me a dogma from apostolic teaching from the Roman Catholic church, and I will show you where it is in Sacred Scripture. If you reread my comment the sentence that contains “general” ends in always, not how you misinterpret my comment.

GAB: You will also find that the “I” 's have a misinformed or lack of information of Catholic doctrine and apostolic christian belief.

RA: You will also find that the “_________” (fill in any RCC authority) have a misinformed or lack of information of biblical doctrine and apostolic christian belief going back to before the RCC became a political entity and started using doctrine/dogma to control the masses in their political push to power (bro, read history).

GABRIEL
Any reasonable informed Christian would read your comment and find you reaching for straws. For one, The Catholic church canonized the bible, what makes you think the Catholic church is going to be misinformed about the bible. If you know anything about the early church fathers, from the first and second centuries, you will find them all Catholic, so apostolic christian belief is practiced today by the Catholic church unchanged 2000 years. That is why you are misinformed in this age, because your new christian theology does not fit the apostolic age, your faith began over 1500 years or more after the Catholic church was already in existance.

Peace be with you