I'm calling on everyone here in this forum EXCEPT Catholics !!!

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Gabriel,

My dear friend, I could write a book in refutation of your response. But, unfortunately, I just don’t have the time.

And to try to even begin addressing your first ***set ***of errors would require so much space and history and scripture, that I just couldn’t do it justice in a limited forum. Perhaps one day I’ll do a full book on the RCC and pick up where we’ve left off here. If that day ever comes, I’ll be sure to drop you a line.

I’ll leave you with this – my faith starts and ends with Jesus and the scriptures (written pre-100 a.d.). Your RCC didn’t even exist at that date. Sorry, but that’s just true history – instead of RCC legends/myths. The RCC you know and love didn’t come into existence until much later, after power, greed, and corruption took over the seat of Rome post-Constantine.

Thank God the Reformation came along to try and return the church to some semblance of what it had been – sadly, the seat of politically power never relinquished it’s hold on the people, nor did it retract its claims as the representative of Jesus on earth.

Clearly, there remains deep division between Roman Catholics and Protestants. I thank God no one is burning anyone any more, and there are no Inquisitions from which to flee. I can say peace to you and mean it.

peace,

RA
 
Richard_Abanes said:
Gabriel,

My dear friend, I could write a book in refutation of your response. But, unfortunately, I just don’t have the time.

And to try to even begin addressing your first ***set ***of errors would require so much space and history and scripture, that I just couldn’t do it justice in a limited forum. Perhaps one day I’ll do a full book on the RCC and pick up where we’ve left off here. If that day ever comes, I’ll be sure to drop you a line.

I’ll leave you with this – my faith starts and ends with Jesus and the scriptures (written pre-100 a.d.). Your RCC didn’t even exist at that date. Sorry, but that’s just true history – instead of RCC legends/myths. The RCC you know and love didn’t come into existence until much later, after power, greed, and corruption took over the seat of Rome post-Constantine.

Thank God the Reformation came along to try and return the church to some semblance of what it had been – sadly, the seat of politically power never relinquished it’s hold on the people, nor did it retract its claims as the representative of Jesus on earth.

Clearly, there remains deep division between Roman Catholics and Protestants. I thank God no one is burning anyone any more, and there are no Inquisitions from which to flee. I can say peace to you and mean it.

peace,

RA
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You see this is where we differ in our theologies, I can prove my Catholic roots by biblical, first and second century persons who lived and practiced my Catholic faith today another words I can give you names and dates including scriptural persons who practiced my Catholic faith, not to mention the epistles that are addressed to the Catholic church.
The only thing you have by way of prove is faith alone, which does not hold up to historical facts which prove that the Catholic church christian practices existed since Jesus resurrection.
You have no historical fact other than to claim a faith alone today that was not believed in by the first Jewish Christians who lived a sacramental life, I use the greek meaning here sacramentum to swear an oath.
You may claim to an earlier christianity but you have no historical proof, that one lived christianity the way you believe 2000 years later, without using the Catholic bible books that you take for granted today.
By you saying your faith was before the Catholic church proves nothing but words. Your faith theology in Christ is not questioned, your faith belief did not exist in the first century. I ask for proof, naming a historical figure first century, second century that believed the way you do today? And a Jewish or Roman figure outside biblical writings who lived the first century who can attest to your faith? Then maybe I would consider you a Catholic or a heretic. I would not ask you of this if the Roman Catholilc church could not prove this history.

It appears you have a misinformed mindset about Roman Catholicism, CAF can help clear these misconceptions of the Catholic church Jesus founded.

Peace be with you
 
Richard_Abanes said:
Gabriel,

My dear friend, I could write a book in refutation of your response. But, unfortunately, I just don’t have the time.

And to try to even begin addressing your first ***set ***of errors would require so much space and history and scripture, that I just couldn’t do it justice in a limited forum. Perhaps one day I’ll do a full book on the RCC and pick up where we’ve left off here. If that day ever comes, I’ll be sure to drop you a line.

I’ll leave you with this – my faith starts and ends with Jesus and the scriptures (written pre-100 a.d.). Your RCC didn’t even exist at that date. Sorry, but that’s just true history – instead of RCC legends/myths. The RCC you know and love didn’t come into existence until much later, after power, greed, and corruption took over the seat of Rome post-Constantine.

Thank God the Reformation came along to try and return the church to some semblance of what it had been – sadly, the seat of politically power never relinquished it’s hold on the people, nor did it retract its claims as the representative of Jesus on earth.

Clearly, there remains deep division between Roman Catholics and Protestants. I thank God no one is burning anyone any more, and there are no Inquisitions from which to flee. I can say peace to you and mean it.

peace,

RA
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There are so many good reasons to just say nothing. But I agree…the Church is full of sinners. That’s why we need to repent. The reformation was the reaction from sinful men against sinful clergy. “There ain’t no right way to do wrong” as my Sergeant Major used to say. He was an evangelical preacher I heard back then too. I became an evangelical for many of the reasons you noted above. However, after years of studying scripture and proselytizing others I discovered several fundamental problems wrong with that theology. I also could write volumes about what I’ve learned…so can many Catholics on here. Seek out your faith with fear and trembling and pray that you aren’t rejecting Christ in the fullness of faith out of prejudism. That would be very sad.

When you show me an evangelical church without sinful leaders I’ll fall away from Catholicism again and join it. But seriously. Read Ignatius of Antioch, particularly to the Smyrnians. Read if over and over. REad the Didache. Look for what Ignatius says about the bishop and eucharist. It’s easy to find online. Many evangelicals end up utilizing heretic writings to justify some small point that supports they’re erronius position. It’s all available. It just would take a life time to read them all. It is by grace that you have been saved, through faith and not by works so that no man can boast…it is the gift of God. Be angry but sin not. Sorry, but Luther sinned against sin. They’re aint no right way to do wrong.

Good day.

Pax Christi tecum brother.
 
Richard_Abanes said:
Steve:

I;m certainly about as non-anti-Catholic as anyone can get, but that was really troubling, IMHO.

RA
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Most of us in here aren’t paid, educated apologists. So, if someone isn’t the greatest at explaining something, someone else might do a better job.

You might be interested in a really quick read, if you haven’t already,
My Life on the Rock, by Jeff Cavins. His testimony is similar to mine.

I thought it was interesting that you brought up the three different “styles” of Catholics world wide. I remember reading that idea in a Bob and Gretchen Passantino article many years ago from BAM. That article which explained the same idea, was what actually got me interested in getting to the truth of the Catholic Church.

I am disturbed with the way Catholicism is combined with occultic pagan practices in the third world, as I’m sure the Pope is. What is your suggestion for dealing with it though? Is it God’s wish that any one of them should perish?

One thing that makes true Catholicism different from protestantism, is that there is only ONE FAITH. None of us who are sharing our thoughts with you are part of the Magisterium or the teaching authority of the Church. Please get a Catechism for yourself. Don’t attempt to portray true Catholicism as what an unknowing layperson tells you on an internet forum. Please go to the source.

“There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic Church.”
-Bishop Fulton Sheen
(I’m not suggesting that you do, I am suggesting that you go to the Source).
:gopray:
 
Richard_Abanes said:
Gabriel,

My dear friend, I could write a book in refutation of your response. But, unfortunately, I just don’t have the time.

And to try to even begin addressing your first ***set ***of errors would require so much space and history and scripture, that I just couldn’t do it justice in a limited forum. Perhaps one day I’ll do a full book on the RCC and pick up where we’ve left off here. If that day ever comes, I’ll be sure to drop you a line.

I’ll leave you with this – my faith starts and ends with Jesus and the scriptures (written pre-100 a.d.). Your RCC didn’t even exist at that date. Sorry, but that’s just true history – instead of RCC legends/myths. The RCC you know and love didn’t come into existence until much later, after power, greed, and corruption took over the seat of Rome post-Constantine.

Thank God the Reformation came along to try and return the church to some semblance of what it had been – sadly, the seat of politically power never relinquished it’s hold on the people, nor did it retract its claims as the representative of Jesus on earth.

Clearly, there remains deep division between Roman Catholics and Protestants. I thank God no one is burning anyone any more, and there are no Inquisitions from which to flee. I can say peace to you and mean it.

peace,

RA
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So when St. Ignatius called the Church “the Catholic Church” around 107 AD he was naming what? A Church that began in 102 AD? 105 AD? He was just making up the name on the spot?

And when Jesus said that He would build His Church and the gates of Hell would not prevail against it He meant what? A Church that would go completely astray around the time of Constantine and succumb to corruption for 1,200 years until God finally “woke up” and got a “saint” like Martin Luther to help start the ball rolling to start a new one (or was it an extension of an invisible one that was there the whole time?)

Speaking of being reminded of Mormonism… :rolleyes:
 
Richard_Abanes said:
Gabriel,

My dear friend, I could write a book in refutation of your response. But, unfortunately, I just don’t have the time.

And to try to even begin addressing your first ***set ***of errors would require so much space and history and scripture, that I just couldn’t do it justice in a limited forum. Perhaps one day I’ll do a full book on the RCC and pick up where we’ve left off here. If that day ever comes, I’ll be sure to drop you a line.

I’ll leave you with this – my faith starts and ends with Jesus and the scriptures (written pre-100 a.d.). Your RCC didn’t even exist at that date. Sorry, but that’s just true history – instead of RCC legends/myths. The RCC you know and love didn’t come into existence until much later, after power, greed, and corruption took over the seat of Rome post-Constantine.

Thank God the Reformation came along to try and return the church to some semblance of what it had been – sadly, the seat of politically power never relinquished it’s hold on the people, nor did it retract its claims as the representative of Jesus on earth.

Clearly, there remains deep division between Roman Catholics and Protestants. I thank God no one is burning anyone any more, and there are no Inquisitions from which to flee. I can say peace to you and mean it.

peace,

RA
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History is as slanted as the person telling it.
Do some unbiased research. Just be open to the truth.

A lack of humility will keep many faithful people from honestly looking at the Catholic Church.

It cost me A LOT.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
 
graceandglory said:
One thing that makes true Catholicism different from protestantism, is that there is only ONE FAITH.
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Not entirely accurate.

Generally speaking, Catholics tend to place their faith in their church, while most non-Catholic Christians place their faith in Christ, in God.

Reading all of the posts on this thread makes it very clear to me that everyone involved is more intent upon proving their own beliefs instead of concentrating on Him. Why focus on the differences instead of concentrating on Him and His teachings? If we try to find our commonalities instead of our differences, maybe there would be less stress and frustration, and maybe we wouldn’t be sidetracked from what (Who) is really important. Stop the quibbling. Satan is laughing with all of this nonsense, and Jesus is crying.
 
Ag_not said:
Would you be so kind as to give me your 3 biggest reasons as to why, according to your denomination and faith, the Catholic Church is unequivocably WRONG in it’s teachings and practices.
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Concept of God in Christianity
by Dr. Zakir Naik

Position of Jesus (pbuh) in Islam:

(i) Islam is the only non-Christian faith, which makes it an article of faith to believe in Jesus (pbuh). No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe in Jesus (pbuh).

(ii) We believe that he was one of the mightiest Messengers of Allah (swt).

(iii) We believe that he was born miraculously, without any male intervention, which many modern day Christians do not believe.

(iv) We believe he was the Messiah translated Christ (pbuh).

(v) We believe that he gave life to the dead with God’s permission.

(iv) We believe that he healed those born blind, and the lepers with God’s permission.

**II CONCEPT OF GOD IN CHRISTIANITY: **
  1. Jesus Christ (pbuh) never claimed Divinity
One may ask, if both Muslims and Christians love and respect Jesus (pbuh), where exactly is the parting of ways? The major difference between Islam and Christianity is the Christians’ insistence on the supposed divinity of Christ (pbuh). A study of the Christian scriptures reveals that Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity. In fact there is not a single unequivocal statement in the entire Bible where Jesus (pbuh) himself says, “I am God” or where he says, “worship me”. In fact the Bible contains statements attributed to Jesus (pbuh) in which he preached quite the contrary. The following statements in the Bible are attributed to Jesus Christ (pbuh):

(i) “My Father is greater than I.”[The Bible, John 14:28]

(ii) “My Father is greater than all.”[The Bible, John 10:29]

(iii) “…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God….”[The Bible, Mathew 12:28]

(iv) “…I with the finger of God cast out devils….”[The Bible, Luke 11:20]

(v) “I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.”[The Bible, John 5:30]
  1. The Mission of Jesus Christ (pbuh) – to Fulfill the Law
Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity for himself. He clearly announced the nature of his mission. Jesus (pbuh) was sent by God to confirm the previous Judaic law. This is clearly evident in the following statements attributed to Jesus (pbuh) in the Gospel of Mathew:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

“Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
“For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”[The Bible, Mathew 5:17-20]
  1. God Sent Jesus’ (pbuh)
The Bible mentions the prophetic nature of Jesus (pbuh) mission in the following verses:

(i) “… and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.”[The Bible, John 14:24]

(ii) “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent.”[The Bible, John 17:3]
  1. Jesus Refuted even the Remotest Suggestion of his Divinity
    Consider the following incident mentioned in the Bible:
"And behold, one came and said unto him, ‘Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?’

And he said unto him, ‘Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.’ "[The Bible, Mathew 19:16-17]

Jesus (pbuh) did not say that to have the eternal life of paradise, man should believe in him as Almighty God or worship him as God, or believe that Jesus (pbuh) would die for his sins. On the contrary he said that the path to salvation was through keeping the commandments. It is indeed striking to note the difference between the words of Jesus Christ (pbuh) and the Christian dogma of salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus (pbuh).
  1. Jesus (pbuh) of Nazareth – a Man Approved of God
The following statement from the Bible supports the Islamic belief that Jesus (pbuh) was a prophet of God.

“Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know.”[The Bible, Acts 2:22]
  1. The First Commandment is that God is One
The Bible does not support the Christian belief in trinity at all. One of the scribes once asked Jesus (pbuh) as to which was the first commandment of all, to which Jesus (pbuh) merely repeated what Moses (pbuh) had said earlier:

“Shama Israelu Adonai Ila Hayno Adonai Ikhad.”

This is a Hebrew quotation, which means:

“Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord.”[The Bible, Mark 12:29]

It is striking that the basic teachings of the Church such as Trinity and vicarious atonement find no mention in the Bible. In fact, various verses of the Bible point to Jesus’ (pbuh) actual mission, which was to fulfill the law revealed to Prophet Moses (pbuh). Indeed Jesus (pbuh) rejected any suggestions that attributed divinity to him, and explained his miracles as the power of the One True God.

Jesus (pbuh) thus reiterated the message of monotheism that was given by all earlier prophets of Almighty God.
 
**III CONCEPT OF GOD IN OLD TESTAMENT: **
  1. God is One
The following verse from the book of Deuteronomy contains an exhortation from Moses (pbuh):

“Shama Israelu Adonai Ila Hayno Adna Ikhad”.

It is a Hebrew quotation which means:

“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord”
[The Bible, Deuteronomy 6:4]
  1. Unity of God in the Book of Isaiah
The following verses are from the Book of Isaiah:

(i) “I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.”
[The Bible, Isaiah 43:11]

(ii) “I am Lord, and there is none else, there is no God besides me.”[The Bible, Isaiah 45:5]

(iii) “I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.”[The Bible, Isaiah 46:9]
  1. Old Testament condemns idol worship
(i) Old Testament condemns idol worship in the following verses:

“Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”

“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:”

“Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God.”
[The Bible, Exodus 20:3-5]

(ii) A similar message is repeated in the book of Deuteronomy:

“Thou shalt have none other gods before me.”

“Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that in the earth beneath, or that is in the water beneath the earth.”

“Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God.”
[The Bible, Deuteronomy 5:7-9]
 
Generally speaking, Catholics tend to place their faith in their church, while most non-Catholic Christians place their faith in Christ, in God.
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Reading all of the posts on this thread makes it very clear to me that everyone involved is more intent upon proving their own beliefs instead of concentrating on Him. Why focus on the differences instead of concentrating on Him and His teachings? If we try to find our commonalities instead of our differences, maybe there would be less stress and frustration, and maybe we wouldn’t be sidetracked from what (Who) is really important. Stop the quibbling. Satan is laughing with all of this nonsense, and Jesus is crying.
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The first part of this quote is like telling your neighbor that he just likes the house he lives in and not the people inside it. I found it a little rude and ignorant sounding the way I understood it, because then you go on to talk about finding commonalities. The whole thing would be like slapping someone and then shaking their hand and asking to be a friend. Did I misinterpret that?
 
Yes, you did misinterpret it. Thanks for asking, and sorry if you took offense, because none was intended.
 
wildrumpus said:
Not entirely accurate.

Generally speaking, Catholics tend to place their faith in their church, while most non-Catholic Christians place their faith in Christ, in God.

Reading all of the posts on this thread makes it very clear to me that everyone involved is more intent upon proving their own beliefs instead of concentrating on Him. Why focus on the differences instead of concentrating on Him and His teachings? If we try to find our commonalities instead of our differences, maybe there would be less stress and frustration, and maybe we wouldn’t be sidetracked from what (Who) is really important. Stop the quibbling. Satan is laughing with all of this nonsense, and Jesus is crying.
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This is a false dichotomy. The Church is Christ’s bride; or, Christ is the head and the Church is His body. I believe the Church teaches the truth on faith and morals because it was instituted by Him and has been held and preserved by Him just as He promised (the gates of Hell will never prevail…)

Without Christ’s institution and preservation the Church would have failed in a week. But, being a divine, and not merely a human, institution, she has stayed true in her teachings despite bad popes, bad cardinals, bad priests, bad bishops, and bad Catholics.
 
wildrumpus said:
Not entirely accurate.

Generally speaking, Catholics tend to place their faith in their church, while most non-Catholic Christians place their faith in Christ, in God.
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I realize that you intended no offense but this is complete hogwash, and a common misstatement of Catholic belief.

It is in fact because of our faith “in Christ, in God”, that we have this other very practical faith in His church. Were we unsure that Jesus was who He is and keeps the promises that He made to the apostles and all of us, then the Christian church would be the worst joke in all of human history and would not be worth the trouble to join.

I think you have some things to learn about the Catholic faith Wild. I hope you stick around to learn it.

I’ve already answered you other speech in one of the other 7 threads where you posted it ver batim.
 
wildrumpus said:
Not entirely accurate.

Generally speaking, Catholics tend to place their faith in their church, while most non-Catholic Christians place their faith in Christ, in God.
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Not true. You missed my point entirely. Don’t look at individual Catholics. Go to the source. If you want to understand Catholicism, study it, learn it, but don’t stop at individual sinners. God and His Church are way too big to be understood by one individual’s explanation. Don’t you think Christ cared that we would all be divided?

Why is it, that in His agony at Gethsemane, before He was put to death, He prayed “That they may all be one?”
Reading all of the posts on this thread makes it very clear to me that everyone involved is more intent upon proving their own beliefs instead of concentrating on Him. Why focus on the differences instead of **concentrating on Him and His teachings? **.
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Actually, that sounds very protestant. Wouldn’t it be nice, to all be united, so that we all together could focus and worship together. Posting to a forum, is a mere five minutes out of my day. I’m sure it is for most people. Catholics and protestants, especially those here, most likely spend much of their life in prayer and worship and reading scripture. I’d say most people here do spend lots of time concentrating on Christ and His teachings, only I wish, as Jesus prayed before He was betrayed, that we could all worship as one.

It would take a miracle for that to happen. Much dialogue has to happen before that takes place.
 
Gab: You see this is where we differ in our theologies, I can prove my Catholic roots by biblical, first and second century persons who lived and practiced my Catholic faith today

RA: Oh dear…I can’t believe you actually said that.

I suggest you go look up the dates the various dogmas of your Catholic faith were added to the church (usually for some political reason).

And, BTW, The Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Branch Davidians, members of the Way International, and a host of others have said the same thing to me: “You see this is where we differ in our theologies, I can prove my_______________ roots by biblical, first and second century persons who lived and practiced my faith today.”

GAB: . . . . another words I can give you names and dates including scriptural persons who practiced my Catholic faith, not to mention the epistles that are addressed to the Catholic church.

**RA: **That’s okay, Gab. The epistles? Odd, my Bible says to the Galatians, to the Romans, to the Corinthians, to the Ephesians. Sorry, nope, can’t find a to the “Roman Catholics, under the Authority of the Holy Pontiff at Rome.”

GAB: The only thing you have by way of prove is faith alone, which does not hold up to historical facts which prove that the Catholic church christian practices existed since Jesus resurrection.

RA: Whatever, Gab. But, to blunt. Sorry, no. You’re just plain wrong. That’s not what history bears out. Sorry. Really, I am. It doesn’t mean you still can’t be RC. But stop re-writing history. Mormons do the same thing. Take what’s actually there, and deal with it.

GAB: You have no historical fact other than to claim a faith alone today that was not believed in by the first Jewish Christians who lived a sacramental life, I use the greek meaning here sacramentum to swear an oath.

**RA: **Okay, Gab. Whatever.

GAB: You may claim to an earlier christianity but you have no historical proof, that one lived christianity the way you believe 2000 years later, without using the Catholic bible books that you take for granted today.

RA: Let’s not get into the Books of the Bible that the Jews didn’t even accept as canonical and that Jesus never quoted.

GAB: By you saying your faith was before the Catholic church proves nothing but words. Your faith theology in Christ is not questioned, your faith belief did not exist in the first century. I ask for proof, naming a historical figure first century, second century that believed the way you do today?

RA: If you want to go there, my friend. I think you need to look at the Trinity for BOTH of us – since it did not FORMALLY exist in the way we would articulate it today. That, oddly, is one reason why various groups like the Mormons and JWs dispute the Trinity.

And you’ll certainly not find celibacy in the Bible for people who want to devote their lives to God (please, don’t bring up the Pauline passage about marriage). But what you will find is a warning that pointedly condemns the RCC:

“The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.” (1 Timothy 4:1-3).

You can also see the false teaching of required fasting and abstaining from meats (anyone want to buy some fish for Good Friday?). But back to marriage, T. Croskery gave the following historical progression of the development of the heresy of forbidding Christians to marry:

This notion may already have influenced opinion in the Corinthian church (1 Cor. 7); it developed in less than a century into Gnostic contempt for marriage; it entered patristic theology in the form of an exaggerated veneration for virginity; it developed in the Latin and Greek churches into the celibacy of the clergy and of religious orders; it was a tendency wholly opposed to Scripture teaching which allows “marriage is honorable in all” (Hebrews 13:2); it forbade marriage to church rulers and ministers, despite the fact of Old Testament priests and New Testament elders having been required to be “husbands of one wife.” Apostles were permitted to take their wives with them on mission tours (1 Corinthians 9:5). [13: T. Croskery, The Pulpit Commentary, Vol. 21, 1 Tim. (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1950), p. 75.]

So I suppose you might be able to find so-called GNOSTIC “Christians” around in the first century who believed a great deal of what you now see in today’s Roman Catholicism. But such persons, of course, were heretics.

And this reflects EXACTLY what is still going on in the RCC today – i.e., a willingness to allow pagan thoughts, beliefs, rituals, philosophies, practices, and rites to co-exist with biblical teachings and Christian doctrines (look in Africa, South America, and other Third World countries). It is not only tolerated, but in some ways encouraged, by the lack of discipline shown by RCC hierarchy against such things as witchcraft, black magick, and the occult that exist in individuals, churches, communities, and full Dioceses of Roman Catholics in good standing (including priests).

GAB: It appears you have a misinformed mindset about Roman Catholicism, CAF can help clear these misconceptions of the Catholic church Jesus founded.

RA: Uhm, no, actually, I have an educated mindset, as well as an experiential mindset about Roman Catholicism.

Peace be with you,

RA
 
GRACE: Bob and Gretchen Passantino article many years ago from BAM. That article which explained the same idea, was what actually got me interested in getting to the truth of the Catholic Church.

RA: Bon & Gretchen were my mentors. Bob passed away several years ago, just FYI. A terrible loss. Gretchen is doing well and is remarries to a GREAT guy and they are sooooo in love.

GRACE: What is your suggestion for dealing with it though? Is it God’s wish that any one of them should perish?

**RA: **Oh, that’s a long discussion. But I can’t imagine that something couldn’t be done by the Pope, Cardinals, local authorities. Such things are so utterly abhorrent to God – just look at all the prohibitions (very strong) in the Bible against such things as divination, magick, witchcraft, occult, sorcery, etc. Goodness. This is really bad stuff to God. And yet his so-called ione true church is rife with it? Hmmmm.

GRACE: One thing that makes true Catholicism different from protestantism, is that there is only ONE FAITH.

RA: Well, you;re not going to find that ONE FAITH practiced by 100 RCs you ask to define that one faith. And as for Protestantism, there is indeed ONE FAITH built around the essentials of the faith (read the Apostles’s Creed).

Other issues are peripheral matters that form denominations. And they are a result of disagreements arising from our own finite minds and sinful hearts. Of course, this goes back even to Paul and Barnabas who “had such a sharp disagreement that they parted company” (Acts 15:39) But we are NOT to say I am of Paul, I am of Cephas, etc. etc. (1 Corinthians 3:4). Christ’s prayer is clear, “May they all be one, … so that the world may believe you sent Me” (John 17:21).

GRACE: None of us who are sharing our thoughts with you are part of the Magisterium or the teaching authority of the Church. Please get a Catechism for yourself. Don’t attempt to portray true Catholicism as what an unknowing layperson tells you on an internet forum. Please go to the source.

RA: Grace, I so appreciate that. But as I mentioned, the problem is the three different spheres, if you will, of RC. It all becomes relevant.

R.A.
 
**BRENNAN: **So when St. Ignatius called the Church “the Catholic Church” around 107 AD he was naming what? A Church that began in 102 AD? 105 AD? He was just making up the name on the spot?

**RA: **The word Catholic used by Ignatius simply meant “universal” – i.e., the “universal church” the one church that is everywhere present in those who call upon the name of the Lord.

WE – all of us – ARE the Catholic (universal) church.

This is a reference to WE – all of us – being called the “church” by Jesus. The Greek word used in Matthew for church is “ekklesia” which literally means the “called out ones.”

Jesus was saying his followers, his called out ones (from the world), his church would always exist – and the gates of hell would never prevail against US (NOT some organization).

**BRENNAN: ** And when Jesus said that He would build His Church and the gates of Hell would not prevail against it He meant what? A Church that would go completely astray around the time of Constantine and succumb to corruption for 1,200 years until God finally “woke up” and got a “saint” like Martin Luther to help start the ball rolling to start a new one (or was it an extension of an invisible one that was there the whole time?)

RA: Oh goodness, no. See first response.

Those throughout history who loved Jesus, and lived for him, and died for him, and served him NEVER ceased to be.

But certain persons who built up a political organization backed by religious talk and symbols and so-called “holy” men certainly did succomb to corruption. That had nothing to do with the ONE TRUE CATHOLIC (“universal”) CHURCH of believers – i.e., the actual Body of Christ (a metaphorical concept).

The actual Body of Christ was never corrupted.
The actual Bride of Christ remained faithful.
The actual ONE TRUE CHURCH was still there.

The only problem was that corrupt men had gained so much power under the guise of the ONE TRUE CHURCH (through politics, wealth, and wars) that they were oppressing the Bride, the Body, the Church.

R.A.
 
Where does Rich fail poorly now? He cherry picks Scripture and projects his strawman of Catholicism on it instead of what Catholicism really teaches.
 
ADS: He cherry picks Scripture

RA: Me cherry picking? ROFL. I don’t think so. I’m the only one here reconciling the numerous verses dealing with connected issues.

A person can’t make a doctrine out of one verses that talks about works. That is courting disaster. Multiple verses apply.

I’ve discussed multiple verses – usually needing to mention passages either avoided, or segments of verses conveniently not underlined.

RA 😛
 
adstrinity said:
Where does Rich fail poorly now? He cherry picks Scripture and projects his strawman of Catholicism on it instead of what Catholicism really teaches.
Click to expand...
Adstrinity,

I understand your frustration, I really do. Sometimes I need to re-read post. May I recommend that you go back and re-read Richard’s post–the message is clear. It is hard for many of us to except things as truth even when they are presented to us in a very clear and loving way.

Before you open the Bible, ask for the Holy Spirit to guide you in your reading. It is truly amazing how God opens doors for us when we let Him and we move out of His way.

God Bless!
 
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