I'm calling on everyone here in this forum EXCEPT Catholics !!!

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Mt. 16:13-19. Please note how Jesus Himself uses “singular words.” “I Jesus” give “you-Peter” “ the keys” to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever “you –Peter” bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever “you-Peter” Loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Upon “this rock – you Peter,” ‘I Jesus” will build “my”(the Church of Jesus) “church” also singular.

Hi PJM. Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I have no idea who or what ‘2 Mac’ is. I never heard of it.

Please show me in the scriptures (spoken unto us by Christ) that ‘dead saints’ or ‘Mary’ has the power to make intercession for us. It is written, that Christ and The Holy Ghost do, however. If you note, these two are part of the Trinity and Godhead.

The original ‘church(es)’ refer to the groupings of the followers/missionaries of the newly proclaimed Word of God, with Christ being the head. This Word of God, provided us with the ‘light’ needed to see through the ‘darkness’ that had overshadowed the Word of God. Christ’s teachings (The Word being not His, but His Father’s who sent HIm), provided everyone that reads His Word, with an understanding. His teachings were not ‘Protestant/Catholic/Orthodox’, but rather, simply The Word of God, owned only by God, Himself, and given unto us for the purpose of providing us with the rules in order to reach salvation/redemption, or the lake of fire

Reply: Hi, I enjoyed your post. Thanks!

I’m confused.

You seem to acknowledge the “Word of God” as actually being the “Word of God”? Do you?

If you do, then where do you get the “right” to pick and choose which words you will accept, and which words you will choose to ignore?

2 Tim. 3:16-17 (KJV) “16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

Mt. 16: (KJV) “16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father, which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, [1] and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

My dear friend in Christ, I’m willing to answer any and all questions, by using the bible, (which is a very incomplete discussion, because if you insist on believing ONLY in what the bible say’s (not what you think it say’s, but the Word of God is saying.) Then I must assume that you understand that something not specified in the bible is not to be believed, correct?

God bless you and guide you,

PJM m.c.
😉 Hi PJM. Thank you for your response.

The internet (shaw cable) has been down for about (40?) hours in our area. We just got it back.

I agree with pretty much all that you have written. I also believe, that if I am a true Christian, God will ‘fill in the blanks’, if something important is missing from the KJV Bible. I further believe, that He constantly provides wisdom/knowledge/understanding and experience to all Christians. He even tells us to discuss these things amongst ourselves in church. The problem that we face in our churches today, is that our ministers believe that ‘they know it all’. Any discussions are held ‘off to the side’, where this wisdom, etc. is filtered, and the rest of the congregation never has a chance for (name removed by moderator)ut, or rebuttal. The congregations are ‘preached at/to’, rather than being allowed to be active participants, with the minister guiding the discussions. Take a look at this website. Have all of these items being presented here ever been discussed with any congregation? (I love this site, because everyone has a chance for (name removed by moderator)ut.) Churches are falling apart. The members are sick of hearing the same story, and following the same rituals. We are all expected to ‘grow’ in our faith. We are expected to become ‘active participants’, rather than remaining as couch potatoes.

My original comments have still not been answered. Your presentation of verses of scripture does not answer any of them.
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Reply:

Because God put a head on your sholders and a brain inside your head:D

It’s common sense.If there can only be one truth; and there can ONLY be a single truth on any issue, otherwise there would “no truth,” only your opinion and my opinion.:thumbsup:

The fact that there are many hundreds of Christian Denominations gives clear evidence of the consequences of “everyone doing there own thing,” and giving God’s WORD (only one bible), there own spin to suit what they choose to believe. How convient and easy is that?

We live in a sinful world where the philosphy of “it’s only wrong if I say it’s wrong” has been accepted as somekind of truth. It is LUNACY!😊 And my dear friend in Christ, This false philosopy is what is wrong!

Jesus only started ONE Church, and gave it HIS INSPIRED WORD, One Bible, and it is the Catholic Bible. How do we know that?

When did your religion start? Mine started while Jesus was here on earth. How old is your bible? Mine can be traced back to St. Jerome’s Latin Vulgate around the year 350 AD.

Your bible came along (KJV) about 1,200 years later and was modified (not inspired by God like the orginal bible) but by folks who thought that they new more, new better. It’s not the same, because God did not promise that it would be. Jesus did promise that the teachings on matters of Faith and Morals (only) caould not, would not be in error. Amen!
  1. Tim. Chapter 4: 13 Till I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching. 14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon you. 15 Practice these duties, devote yourself to them, so that all may see your progress. 16 Take heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.
My dear friend, not even God is going to force you to accept the truth, but is is a lot easier to find, if your actually seeking it.😃

God bless and thanks for asking, always happy to help my Brother:)

PJM m.c.
😉 Hi PJM. (I’m back) God teaches us to have patience and be obedient. I had to wait a long time for the Protestant Reformation to come along, but God knew my patience wouldn’t wane. He rewarded me with a corrected Bible (The KJV Bible). 👍
 
Coming from the Buddhist perspective, the Catholic Church is not “unequivocally WRONG”, much that the Church teaches is correct. From the Buddhist perspective, it is not so much that the Church is wrong, it is just that Buddhism is better.

The major differences with Buddhism are:* Buddhism does not have the concept of a soul, all things are soulless.
  • all things, including the gods and heavens, are impermanent.
  • rebirth in the heavens is a lower, temporary goal. The final goal is nirvana.
  • the consequences of our actions are inescapable; there is neither sin nor the forgiveness of sin. Ther are only actions and their consequences.
rossum
I dont understand how all things can be soulless and then there be anything such as a gods, heavens and any way for one to get to nirvana without a soul engaging in the process. The highlighted words mean nothing without a soul to be doing those things. a body without a soul… is just a body. humans are more than bodies.

if there are only actions and consequences, that means that there is no sin, as you said- but this means that noone can really be responsible for anything they do, as their action is probably just a consequence of many actions they have experienced. this understanding also means that there is no such thing as right or wrong, no REAL laws anyone should be made to uphold and no such thing as rights. noone should stand up for anything, believe anything, be happy or sad. there should be no wisdom or hope, no strivings or even desires, not even the hope or goal of nirvana. This is the consequence of there not being any defined sin; an ultimate judgement or law for humanity. we have no higher dignity than water or air.

it also means that the human ability to think deeper than their experiences of the physical reality is a waste of time, even though it exists.

There can be no justice, no rights, no definition of right or wrong, without an ultimate judge or definition of those things. without that judge, we can claim to be worth just as much as weeds… if it wants to grow here, what right do i to get in its way? (but weeds dont even have capacity to WANT to do anything!)

but the truth is, even before you get into any religion or persepective on life,

the reality for human beings is that their interior lives are so much a reality that they DO engage in seeking that which they cannot see, to fill a hole that cries out from within them with SOMETHING. humans have a sense of justice and the greatest actions they can do are LOVE, which requires hope and sacrifice, endurance, patience, and compassion and empathy. LOVE emcapsulates the height of human ability and dignity, this is why i define it as the greatest a human can be and do.

if one desires to learn and gain wisdom, they cannot deny that it is a good or even a desire.

in my opinion, your view on life is selfish and it denies the incredible nature of the human, being both physical and spiritual beings. We are not objects, we are persons- we have our own wills. the best way to relate to another person is to recognise that person and their right and ability to possess and desire his or her own will, to honour and bring dignity to him or her, as they were your own person- LOVE.

Love calls us to experience pain and heartache, as well as joy and peace, not to deny that wrong/ sin even exists, when clearly, we experience it every day! Love, not only calls us to do those things, but to do those things for other people. if you can do it for a stranger or an enemy… how great that LOVE is! which is why Jesus’ love is greater than any person’s EVER. He gave his life, in love for a world who hated Him.

the most incredible thing i see about your view is it seems that there is some sort of order to the universe… but any type of order at all points me to a creative mind- the “why” behind the “what”, the designer behind the beauty and order. you hint at justice in that every action has a consequence, a balance that is maintained maybe.

any balance cannot be maintained without the existence of defined nature of actions, even if it is out of our hands.

If everyone seriously believed what you say you believed, 100%, there would be no such thing as families, no art, no music, no such thing as love… but there is… there are humans.

you are created in God’s image and have dignity and rights, simply because of who He is and that He made you and then gave His life for you to be united with Him. This is the only reason why you even have a voice- because GOD gave it to you, as a human.

anything else, apart from Him, is opinion, in that, there is no purpose or meaning to any human, without a creator reasoning their existence into being. you may deny being an object, but your sense of reality says differently, that no human has any rights or voice, over or alongside any other object in the universe… not even bacteria.

your view, to me, seems to be a denial of reality and humanity. it sounds like the opposite of love, indifference.

Mary

PS- thank you for posting, you have really helped me.
 
Oh - so whoever has the biggest crowd is right?

How do you know that your church has lived all of Jesus’ teachings for 2000 years as they were intended?

I agree that the apostle’s were there - duh - that is why they handed down the sacred writings to us! “For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life . . . what more shall I teach you than what we read in the apostles? For Holy Scripture fixes the rule for our doctrine, lest we dare be wiser than we ought.” (Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, II, 9 -and- On De Bono Viduitatis.)
Hi Crucified 👋 Not just biggest, but oldest Church, 2000 years. Preaching Only ‘Service’ began 1500 years later. We had The Liturgy ever since the Last Supper Feast, with Real Presence Eucharist, now called the Mass. There is great book out called Mass of the Early Christians/(Convert)Mike Aquilina/Our Sunday Visitor about The Church in the First two Centuries. :highprayer:
And we Lived all 7 Sacraments Our Lord gave the Church, all described In the NT. It’s not just reading The Word, but Living it, as Our Lord intended. God Bless You.
There is one great confusion about THE WORD. In Those days, it was the Spoken teachings of the Apostles, later written down as the Church Rapidly Grew. The books Correctly In the Bible were only selected by Church Fathers (Bishop’s) in 3 Councils in late 300’s, The Councils of Carthage, Nicea, and Rome. :bible1: There had been Many Not authentic, False ‘epistles’ and ‘gospels’ in first 3 Centuries, like the ‘gospel of Judas’, the gospel of Mary, the gospel of thomas, etc. So there was no One Bible/Book until late 300’s, although we always had Holy Readings From Last Supper on, continuing in the Mass.
 
I am not interested in debating about Bible translations.

I want to know how you know that your Bible is inspired.
Here is your answer from God and me, just for little ol’ you:D

16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
HOW DO YOU KNOW that the catholic bible is the ONE bible that Jesus gave the church?
Because the Catholic Church was THE ONLY Church and the Catholic Bible was the only bible for about 1500 years:thumbsup: Duuuh!

How about some original thought questions. I’d love to be of assistance:thumbsup:

God bless you my friend,
Keep smiling, I am:D

PJM m.c.
 
Here is your answer from God and me, just for little ol’ you:D

16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Because the Catholic Church was THE ONLY Church and the Catholic Bible was the only bible for about 1500 years:thumbsup: Duuuh!

How about some original thought questions. I’d love to be of assistance:thumbsup:

God bless you my friend,
Keep smiling, I am:D

PJM m.c.
the RCC only has some of the LXX not all of it. The Orthodox have all. So what about that. THE RCC maybe deficient.
 
the RCC only has some of the LXX not all of it. The Orthodox have all. So what about that. THE RCC maybe deficient.
My dear friend in Jesus The Christ!

Let us not pretend to forget:

Jesus only Founded One Church the RCC

There used to be Only One Bible the RCC bible.

“Not My will, but thy will be done” Amen

God bless, PJM m.c.
 
Would you be so kind as to give me your 3 biggest reasons as to why, according to your denomination and faith, the Catholic Church is unequivocably WRONG in it’s teachings and practices.

My reason for asking this is because I will then research each of the reasons you give, and personally satisfy myself as to their validity, or not, for myself, as part of my journey into faith.

I hope this question does not break any forum rules; Im not looking to give a platform for anti catholic rhetoric and respect the fact this is a catholic board. I merely want to try and get into one place, i.e. here, what the main arguements are against Catholicism, and then investigate them for myself. I thought it would be the most expedient way to do this. If Im wrong, I apologise to the admins, and please delete this post as you see fit.

This is really for my own education and exploration, and trying to get the things I want to research into some sort of ordered fashion.

Bruxilda.
I like to count myself as a part of the Catholic family but I am not an orthodox Catholic.

The reason why is that we know the Catholic church is imperfect, full of faults, errors. It is mortal in nature. It is not God; it is a creature. It may be connected with God, but it itself is not God, only a creature.

Orthodox Roman Catholicism says that nevertheless the church is perfect in terms of its beliefs, perfect as in free from error there, free from dillution, free from any opacity in the light of God shining through the tenets of the Catholic church and the church of Rome.

See the tension? It’s odd for something to be absolutely perfect in terms of beliefs yet mundanely imperfect and full of human error in terms of everything else (sins etc.). Our mortal and fallen condition affects not just our hearts but with our hearts, our minds.

Even the prophets, though inspired by the spirit of God, failed in their beliefs and prophecies. John the baptizer, erred in his beliefs and prophetic expectations, even though Jesus cast him as the greatest of all prophets and the greatest of all human beings.

Even Elijah and Moses had more to learn as we know.

The church too has more to learn and God has more to say. Catholic theologians acknowledge this. Public revelation is closed until the Last Judgment but at that time more revelation is to come, they say. Fr Benedict Groeschel, wryly perhaps, remarks how he does not know if they will write it down like they did this time.

The teaching church says God has promised infallibility. But previously theologians, many, taught only indefectibility and some still do (Hans Kung for ex.).

I view the church as like the leaning tower of Pisa. It is not perfect. It is not something perfectly constructed (so the old notion that the hiearchical or juridical church is sinless and spotless and perfect is out the window now except amonst the uber traditionalists). It veers away from God not only in action but in belief. The pope too. No special magic circumstances when we are immune. The promise of God is not magic a la Harry Potter which we rely on to write solid theology books. The promise of God is forever. The promise of God is the word of Christ, the word of Moses, of Elijah and what is written in our bodies and hearts. We as a species can give life so the promise is that we like God will become like him and be co-creators. We can also love and yearn to love more and so the promise is that we will become more powerful in our love.

So I embrace this spirituality of love. Religious tenets are not important. It doesn’t matter whether you believe Mary was a virgin. God doesn’t care and I don’t think Mary would either (I mean, would you?). It doesn’t matter whether you believe in the pope as vicar of God. What matters is only what is already in your heart, love, and the journey that will bring you. If you die with true love in your heart even according to official Catholic doctrine, you will have died in God’s friendship, and thus go to heaven, whether you happened to believe Mary was a virgin or not. So religious tenets are like Christmas tree decorations; the latter is not the true meaning of Christmas and the former is not the true meaning of life.
 
Oh for all things unholy and Mcgovern! Catholics did not write the entire bible they copied it from copies that were originally Jewish in origin. Jerome had doubts about the LXX and called the books hidden. The OT was first canonized by the JEWS long before Athenasius wrote down his preferance for the 27 books of the NT. Josephus even states that the greek books were not accept by the Jews. The Tanakh includes only the 39 books of the OT. And yes you could have up to 81 (if your coptic) if you include the Psuedopigraphia. Do you consider them inspired? And if Tobit is fictional then its a possiblity that Raphael is a character. Though Raphael is a function rather than a name.
Bottom line
  • The NT was written in, by, and for the Catholic Church.
  • The “Jews” of the 1st century were of different camps. Those that rejected Jesus and remained Jews, and those Jews who became Christian.
  • The Jews who became Christian followed the Septuagint with 46 books in the OT. Remember, the Church in the beginning was made up of 100 % converted Jews. Then there were the Jews who were called blind guides, hypocrits, whitewashed tombs by Jesus. They had no more authority anyway over such Church matters such as the canon of scripture, once the Church was established by Jesus,
  • Protestants follow the OT canon of the Pharisees, NOT what the Church follows
 
the Catholic church is imperfect, full of faults, errors. It is mortal in nature. It is not God; it is a creature. It may be connected with God, but it itself is not God, only a creature.
The One who founded the Catholic Church
  • is Divine. Let’s not forget that or downplay it. The Catholic Church is the only Church He founded
  • The Divine, promises to sustain the Catholic Church He builds on Peter are*** forever***. Let’s not downplay or forget THAT.
  • While the Church on earth is made up of sinful mortals working in love, you’re not seeing the Church triumphant in heaven which is eternal.
  • the CHURCH is NOT a mere connection to God. When Saul persecuted the Church, Jesus in heaven after the resurrection and ascension said to Saul, why do you persecute ME? It’s personal
j:
Orthodox Roman Catholicism says that nevertheless the church is perfect in terms of its beliefs, perfect as in free from error there, free from dillution, free from any opacity in the light of God shining through the tenets of the Catholic church and the church of Rome.

See the tension? It’s odd for something to be absolutely perfect in terms of beliefs yet mundanely imperfect and full of human error in terms of everything else (sins etc.).
That’s like saying Jesus is not perfect because what He makes and sustains on earth also comits sins.
j:
Our mortal and fallen condition affects not just our hearts but with our hearts, our minds.

Even the prophets, though inspired by the spirit of God, failed in their beliefs and prophecies. John the baptizer, erred in his beliefs and prophetic expectations, even though Jesus cast him as the greatest of all prophets and the greatest of all human beings.

Even Elijah and Moses had more to learn as we know.
Where did they teach error?
j:
The teaching church says God has promised infallibility. But previously theologians, many, taught only indefectibility and some still do (Hans Kung for ex.).
Hans Kung was and continues to be banned from teaching in Catholic settings.
j:
I view the church as like the leaning tower of Pisa. It is not perfect. It is not something perfectly constructed (so the old notion that the hiearchical or juridical church is sinless and spotless and perfect is out the window now except amonst the uber traditionalists).
the only ones who float the notion that the Church is sinless and perfect and spotless, yada yada … are non Catholics and anti Catholics. And they confuse impeccability with infalibility.

That isn’t a traditionalist problem it’s a problem of some who are outside the Church.
j:
It veers away from God not only in action but in belief. The pope too. No special magic circumstances when we are immune. The promise of God is not magic a la Harry Potter which we rely on to write solid theology books.
Hans Kung, Harry Potter…?? I can see where your problem is.
j:
The promise of God is forever. The promise of God is the word of Christ, the word of Moses, of Elijah and what is written in our bodies and hearts. We as a species can give life so the promise is that we like God will become like him and be co-creators. We can also love and yearn to love more and so the promise is that we will become more powerful in our love.

So I embrace this spirituality of love. Religious tenets are not important. It doesn’t matter whether you believe Mary was a virgin. God doesn’t care and I don’t think Mary would either (I mean, would you?).

It doesn’t matter whether you believe in the pope as vicar of God. What matters is only what is already in your heart, love, and the journey that will bring you. If you die with true love in your heart even according to official Catholic doctrine, you will have died in God’s friendship, and thus go to heaven, whether you happened to believe Mary was a virgin or not. So religious tenets are like Christmas tree decorations; the latter is not the true meaning of Christmas and the former is not the true meaning of life.
You’re all over the map in your opinions.

May I suggest you read

vatican.va/holy_father/jo…-ratio_en.html
 
the only ones who float the notion that the Church is sinless and perfect and spotless, yada yada … are non Catholics and anti Catholics. And they confuse impeccability with infalibility.

That isn’t a traditionalist problem it’s a problem of some who are outside the Church.
Not true. SSPX followers have told me that the church is sinless and that juridically it is sinless and perfect.

Even liberal Catholics seem to be aware of this

Fr Thomas Reese, SJ, for ex.

“Many are confused by statements that while the children of the church can sin, the church [itself] is sinless.”

beliefnet.com/Faiths/2000/03/Asking-Forgiveness.aspx

And in the Orthodox Catholic Church (not in full communion with Rome)

“There’s a certain paradox to these two dimensions “body of Christ”; “particular members”] of the Church. The Church, as Christ’s body and bride, is inherently holy and pure; it is sinless (Eph 5.25-27). Yet it is composed of people like us, all of whom are sinners. We fall short of holiness. We make mistakes, we sin, and, what’s more, we are liable also to do so corporately and in the name of the Church itself. But despite having sinners as its members, the Church is sinless. How can we make sense of this paradox?”

(p 131 of Sweeter Than Honey: Orthodox Thinking on Dogma And Truth by Peter C. Bouteneff)

Anyway though it is apparently preserved in some quarters and outside of the Roman communion, my experience as I mentioned and as your misunderstanding of what I was referring to further confirms, is that this traditional doctrine has been lost in the winds of Vatican II and what followed and is kept alive only by the uber traditionalists.
 
Not true. SSPX followers have told me that the church is sinless and that juridically it is sinless and perfect.

Even liberal Catholics seem to be aware of this
Hans Kung, Harry Potter, now SSPX… :rolleyes:
j:
Fr Thomas Reese, SJ, for ex.

“Many are confused by statements that while the children of the church can sin, the church [itself] is sinless.”

beliefnet.com/Faiths/2000/03/Asking-Forgiveness.aspx
If you read a little further Fr Reese says

"The church as the “sinless bride of Christ” exists on a spiritual, mystical or eschatological level outside history for which we can take no credit."

In my previous post I called it the Church triumphant which is in heaven.
j:
And in the Orthodox Catholic Church (not in full communion with Rome)
If they are NOT in union with Rome they are NOT Catholic.
j}:
of the Church. The Church, as Christ’s body and bride, is inherently holy and pure; it is sinless (Eph 5.25-27). Yet it is composed of people like us, all of whom are sinners. We fall short of holiness. We make mistakes, we sin, and, what’s more, we are liable also to do so corporately and in the name of the Church itself. But despite having sinners as its members, the Church is sinless. How can we make sense of this paradox?"
The answer is quoted above from Fr Reese in the very article you quote from.
j:
Anyway though it is apparently preserved in some quarters and outside of the Roman communion, my experience as I mentioned and as your misunderstanding of what I was referring to further confirms, is that this traditional doctrine has been lost in the winds of Vatican II and what followed and is kept alive only by the uber traditionalists.
Why not quote from sources in communion with Rome.
 
Hans Kung, Harry Potter, now SSPX… :rolleyes:

Why not quote from sources in communion with Rome.
SSPX was what I had in mind by “uber traditionalist Catholics” My understanding is that Rome considers them to be Catholic. Anyway I’m not sure what it is you are disagreeing with me on. You just didn’t seem to understand what I meant. No one thinks any human is sinless much less all the members of the church. That’s not what I was talking about. I spoke of the “juridical church” being perfect. That doesn’t mean the individual members. You went off on something and now you don’t seem to realize you misunderstood it or realize that you did but just aren’t saying so. Either way, no big deal, let’s just move on.

P.S., Catholic church refers to churches not in full communion with Rome as “Catholic”. For example, the Polish National Catholic Church.

Capital “o” Orthodox Catholics sometimes refer to their church as Catholic too. Some of their catechisms are titled with “Orthodox Catholic Church” IIRC.

Myself, I am in between orthodox Catholic and cafeteria Catholic. I reject both extremes. I favor ultimately judging for yourself but I also favor having a heart of a listener to the ecclesiastical magisterium and also to the theologian magisterium and to other faiths too.
 
I like to count myself as a part of the Catholic family but I am not an orthodox Catholic.

The reason why is that we know the Catholic church is imperfect, full of faults, errors. It is mortal in nature. It is not God; it is a creature. It may be connected with God, but it itself is not God, only a creature.

Orthodox Roman Catholicism says that nevertheless the church is perfect in terms of its beliefs, perfect as in free from error there, free from dillution, free from any opacity in the light of God shining through the tenets of the Catholic church and the church of Rome.

See the tension? It’s odd for something to be absolutely perfect in terms of beliefs yet mundanely imperfect and full of human error in terms of everything else (sins etc.). Our mortal and fallen condition affects not just our hearts but with our hearts, our minds.

Even the prophets, though inspired by the spirit of God, failed in their beliefs and prophecies. John the baptizer, erred in his beliefs and prophetic expectations, even though Jesus cast him as the greatest of all prophets and the greatest of all human beings.

Even Elijah and Moses had more to learn as we know.

The church too has more to learn and God has more to say. Catholic theologians acknowledge this. Public revelation is closed until the Last Judgment but at that time more revelation is to come, they say. Fr Benedict Groeschel, wryly perhaps, remarks how he does not know if they will write it down like they did this time.

The teaching church says God has promised infallibility. But previously theologians, many, taught only indefectibility and some still do (Hans Kung for ex.).

I view the church as like the leaning tower of Pisa. It is not perfect. It is not something perfectly constructed (so the old notion that the hiearchical or juridical church is sinless and spotless and perfect is out the window now except amonst the uber traditionalists). It veers away from God not only in action but in belief. The pope too. No special magic circumstances when we are immune. The promise of God is not magic a la Harry Potter which we rely on to write solid theology books. The promise of God is forever. The promise of God is the word of Christ, the word of Moses, of Elijah and what is written in our bodies and hearts. We as a species can give life so the promise is that we like God will become like him and be co-creators. We can also love and yearn to love more and so the promise is that we will become more powerful in our love.

So I embrace this spirituality of love. Religious tenets are not important. It doesn’t matter whether you believe Mary was a virgin. God doesn’t care and I don’t think Mary would either (I mean, would you?). It doesn’t matter whether you believe in the pope as vicar of God. What matters is only what is already in your heart, love, and the journey that will bring you. If you die with true love in your heart even according to official Catholic doctrine, you will have died in God’s friendship, and thus go to heaven, whether you happened to believe Mary was a virgin or not. So religious tenets are like Christmas tree decorations; the latter is not the true meaning of Christmas and the former is not the true meaning of life.
Please do not call yourself Catholic if you believe even a few of Your ideas. There are No errors
, No big mistakes, errors in the Catholic Basics. We have been through So Many “List the Mistakes, errors of the RCC” on several threads, and None held up. Was mistakes, errors of the Poster.
No one ever claimed that the Church was sinless. Pope JP IIn Historically Apologized for the Secular errors of The Church in 2000 years.
The Church has never changed Any basic Dogma in 2000 years.
You need to seperate Religious Dogma and official teaching Of the Church from Secular errors of Seculars often blamed on the Church, like Wars, etc.

Do you call the Lowest Overhead of The Church, average Cardinal pay $80,000 2 years ago a 'fault"? Know All Bishops are Required to have a Doctorate? Do you know that the Mass is not a “Service?” Know the Novus Ordo Mass of Vatican II is an essential return to the Mass of the First 2 Centuries? Mass of the Early Christians/Micheal Aquilina/Our Sunday Visitor Think Pour Claires are a mistake?. Realize that the Church’s only use of “Force” is in Reasoning with us on Teachings? Think Teachings are in Error? You’de be grossly mistaken if you did. Every Teaching, Tenet is To Help US be as ideal as we can be? Ever thought? Know RCC is The Humblest Big Organization in the World? Am about to Publish that in a Catholic Periodical. 👍

Reality works Far better than our ideas.

And Bishop Sheen famously said that people love to hate the Falsehoods the Catholic Church is said to have, falselly.

*And one Sees Our Lord in Everything Catholic. The Church is His continuation. *
 
There are several questions that a priest either CANNOT answer or will give a wrong answer. 1. Do you know 100% that you are going to heaven when you die? 2. How is a person saved? 3. Who has the power to forgive sin?

After much correspondence, Dr. Rice writes an earnest Catholic man what is wrong with the Roman church. jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/dear_catholic_friend_john_rice.htm

There’s also a great sermon from a Catholic Bible here: jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20Tracts%20&%20Preaching/Printed%20Sermons/Dr%20John%20Rice/catholic_bible.htm

and an answer to who can forgive sin here: jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_Max_Younce/who_can_forgive.htm

Where are the answers to these claims in the Bible? jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/popes_say_noncatholics_lost.htm
jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholic_church_is_not_christian.htm

**2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. **

"For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God" (Romans 10:3)
 
average Cardinal pay $80,000 2 years ago a 'fault"?
I never mentioned anything about anyone’s salary. Since you brought it up though, I don’t see why this is something to be proud of. Cardinals also get lots of benefits, including free housing, sometimes more. Some even get a free mansion etc. But even without all those perks and benefits, $80,000 2 years ago (I’m assuing what you say is true) would be about $85-90,000 now, depending on what “2 years” exactly is and whether you want to go with GDP deflator or more consumer non-investor oriented measures. Comparing the $80,000 data to data from 2005, in 2005, the median U.S. personal income was just $25,149 (for those working and over 18). Or to put it more starkly and directly, they would be in the top 8.92%.

I don’t think boasting that Cardinals make a salary (not including free housing and benefits) in the top 8.92% of American workers is wise.

IMO, Cardinals should follow the example of that Jesuit Cardinal from Latin America who believe it or not takes the bus, literally. Just as Biden takes the train, literally. He was considered a possible contendor for pope. I hope and pray he will be pope the next time.
 
I never mentioned anything about anyone’s salary. Since you brought it up though, I don’t see why this is something to be proud of. Cardinals also get lots of benefits, including free housing, sometimes more. Some even get a free mansion etc. But even without all those perks and benefits, $80,000 2 years ago (I’m assuing what you say is true) would be about $85-90,000 now, depending on what “2 years” exactly is and whether you want to go with GDP deflator or more consumer non-investor oriented measures. Comparing the $80,000 data to data from 2005, in 2005, the median U.S. personal income was just $25,149 (for those working and over 18). Or to put it more starkly and directly, they would be in the top 8.92%.

I don’t think boasting that Cardinals make a salary (not including free housing and benefits) in the top 8.92% of American workers is wise.

IMO, Cardinals should follow the example of that Jesuit Cardinal from Latin America who believe it or not takes the bus, literally. Just as Biden takes the train, literally. He was considered a possible contendor for pope. I hope and pray he will be pope the next time.
Still Picking nits trying to win?:confused: Try Real world: A Cardinal is the Second Highest Position in the 1.1 Billion Catholic Church. :highprayer: It is Definitelly World Class ‘job’. Think Middle class pay is too much? 1/3 the pay of wealthy?

I don’t boast, only Correct misinformation about anything. And your entitled to your thoughts. Know Many Top Officials of the RCC work Without Pay? Like the Monk Archbishop of Boston? Like Mother Angelica? And they don’t work 40 hour week. My Bishop works about 70 hours a week. With no overtime. My Pastor works at least 85, and seems always just starting day fresh.

:whistle: :ouch: :dts: Its your allegation that the Church is full of errors, sins, mistakes that I’m addressing.
 
I’m curious why you say written in, by, and for the Catholic Church? Is the word Catholic in those writings?
Do you think the NT was written outside the Catholic Church by non Catholics, for some Church other than the Catholic Church? There IS no other Church in the 1st century. The Catholic Church is the only Church scripture writes about. No other. Therefore scripture is written IN, BY, and FOR the Catholic Church

"Catholic " epistles (Protestant source, Protestant commentaries))
ccel.org/search?category=fulltext&qu=Catholic+epistles

Now consider the following
  1. Ignatius, 1st century bishop of Antioch, i.e. he was bishop during apostolic times, (St John died ~100) wrote 6 letters to the Church in 6 locations on his way to Rome to be martyred in the coliseum. Ignatius was the first in writing to call the Church the Catholic Church (letter to the smyrnians). The locations he writes to are
Note, during apostolic times the Church is already being called the Catholic Church. Ignatius maybe the first to put it in writing, but that doesn’t mean the term is not being used already orally. Otherwise nobody would know what he was talking about.
  1. There is only one Church albeit in many locations in scripture. It is the Catholic Church. And because of Peter, the one Jesus made it’s worldwide leader, the Catholic Church is headquartered in Rome, Peter’s see.
  2. Notice in Ignatius letter to the Romans, in his salutation, he says the Church of Rome (presides) holds the presidency. No other Church in the ones he writes to does he say the same. While a bishop might preside over his diocese, the Church of Rome presides over ALL the Church
 
P.S., Catholic church refers to churches not in full communion with Rome as “Catholic”. For example, the Polish National Catholic Church.
Just because someone wants to use Catholic in their name doesn’t mean they are Catholic. Look at all the Protestant assemblies who want to call themselves “Apostolic” in their name?
j:
Capital “o” Orthodox Catholics sometimes refer to their church as Catholic too. Some of their catechisms are titled with “Orthodox Catholic Church” IIRC.
Same comment as before. If they are NOT in communion with Rome they are NOT Catholic.
j:
Myself, I am in between orthodox Catholic and cafeteria Catholic.
IOW you’re cafeteria ?.
j:
I reject both extremes. I favor ultimately judging for yourself but I also favor having a heart of a listener to the ecclesiastical magisterium and also to the theologian magisterium and to other faiths too.
As you know personal judgement should be based on a well formed conscience.

What/who you listen to is one thing, what we are ultimately judged on is what we DO. Because as James says (paraphrased) what we do indicates what/how we believe.
 
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