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hilarycotter
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Was she an unmentioned daughter of Adam and Eve?
Can anyone provide me with a reference to this?
Can anyone provide me with a reference to this?
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lak611
Guest
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rwoehmke
Guest
Haydock not withstanding we really do not know. It would seem that unless God infused these first people with technological knowledge that the musical instruments and all those things attributed to Cain and his descendants must have been completely swept away in the flood. As far back as we have been able to go with searches into the past mostly we find stone tools. Maybe the metal and iron stuff just rusted away. On the other hand could it be that the story of Genesis is just that, a good story.
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1ke
Guest
The Encyclical Humani Generis teaches that we are to believe in one, literal, original set of parents (Adam and Eve) from which all of mankind descends.
Therefore, yes, their children intermarried.
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Ghosty
Guest
Saying that all humans descend from Adam and Eve doesn’t necessitate that their children married their siblings. It’s equally possible theologically, and much more likely biologically, that they had children with humanoids, or creatures with human bodies and non-rational souls.
Peace and God bless!
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Syele
Guest
I used to have a link to a population growth chart that showed that if Cain waited a few years to get married he would have had several thousand women to choose from. Remember, people lived whole lot longer back then and Adam and Eve probably have LOTS of children. not just two or three.
If I find the chart I’ll post it up. If he didn’t wait, he probably married his sister.
If I find the chart I’ll post it up. If he didn’t wait, he probably married his sister.
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hilarycotter
Guest
OK, thanks everyone!
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Seatuck
Guest
You got a church reference for the belief in humanoids?
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1ke
Guest
That position is contrary to Catholic teaching and cannot be held by Catholics.
Please read Humani Generis if you have not done so.
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Spirithound
Guest
I just thought about this, and since we are all descended from Adam and Eve, we are all distantly related, and so in the days of the second generation, procreating with one’s sister would be no more dangerous than procreating with a legally and ecclesiastically acceptable “unrelated” person today.
It isn’t actually. Humani Generis states that we have only one set of original human parents. That in no way discounts the possibility of ancient human-like creatures who did not possess human souls, but were perhaps biologically compatible. That does not contradict the required belief in monogenism.
For me, though that sounds awfully close to bestiality (that is, relations with animal lifeforms outside our own), so I’m not too comfortable with it.
But I am a believer in God-guided evolution, and I accept the theories that at one time, there were at least two humanoid species that inhabited the earth, the Neanderthals being the other.
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Spirithound
Guest
Think of a family tree. If you have a grandma and a grandpa, and their son and daughter got married and had you, then you would have one set of original grandparents.
If, however, your grandpa and grandma had a son, and that son found an unrelated woman, married, and had you, then you would have 2 sets of original grandparents.
Monogenism dictates that all offspring are ultimately purely derived from the original man and woman.
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rwoehmke
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That and Cain marrying a sister would not be parts of the story that would strike me as legend or myth. Its the idea that Cain as an early son of Adam and Eve had close descendants who invented metal tools and musical instruments. Got to be a lot of time compression and lost generations in between.
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lak611
Guest
Where would these close descendents come from if all humans came from one man and one woman, Adam and Eve?
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Ghosty
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I have read Humani Generis, and it is precisely from that document that I’m taking this stance:
I’m saying that all humans are descended from Adam, and that the human nature, the rational soul in a human body, originates with Adam. I’m simply adding that certain biological traits could be derived from elsewhere, namely non-rational hominids who were biologically, but not spiritually, identical with human beings.
The reason I put forth this idea is because plain genetic evidence points to a biological (read: physical, not spiritual) diversity that doesn’t fit having only two biological “parents”. Basically, we can see genetically that we derive our biology from more than two individuals. I’m not overly bothered by the idea of Cain marrying his sister, nor am I any more bothered by him mating with a being that had our biology but not our rational soul. Rather I’m bothered by the idea of God “lying” to us with physical evidence that points to a wider biological basis for the human species than just Adam and Eve.
To those who say that such mating would be bestiality, I answer that bestiality is just as immoral as incest; if God allowed it for a time, for the good of the race, it was moral. Plus I would add that the “incest” account goes against what we can see in our genes, whereas the mating with non-rational humanoids does not. All in all, I think everything points in favor of Cain not marrying his sister, but marrying a very, very intelligent non-human, like the Neanderthals (but even more like us, genetically speaking). Their children, being descended from Adam and Eve, would have human souls rather than animal souls, and therefore wouldn’t be “half-animal” any more that we are; they would have 100% human DNA (the biology from both parents), and a 100% human soul (from Adam). No conflict with Humani Generis, and no conflict with the evidence of reason.
Peace and God bless!
This is the relevant passage of Humani Generis, and my statement in no way contradicts this. I am NOT positing that any true men, or any men at all (I’m not saying that non-rational humanoids fit the description of “men” in anything but genetics, but even a corspe which is not a human has the same genes as a human person), existed who did not originate with Adam. Nor am I saying that Adam figuratively represents a number of “first parents”.
I’m saying that all humans are descended from Adam, and that the human nature, the rational soul in a human body, originates with Adam. I’m simply adding that certain biological traits could be derived from elsewhere, namely non-rational hominids who were biologically, but not spiritually, identical with human beings.
The reason I put forth this idea is because plain genetic evidence points to a biological (read: physical, not spiritual) diversity that doesn’t fit having only two biological “parents”. Basically, we can see genetically that we derive our biology from more than two individuals. I’m not overly bothered by the idea of Cain marrying his sister, nor am I any more bothered by him mating with a being that had our biology but not our rational soul. Rather I’m bothered by the idea of God “lying” to us with physical evidence that points to a wider biological basis for the human species than just Adam and Eve.
To those who say that such mating would be bestiality, I answer that bestiality is just as immoral as incest; if God allowed it for a time, for the good of the race, it was moral. Plus I would add that the “incest” account goes against what we can see in our genes, whereas the mating with non-rational humanoids does not. All in all, I think everything points in favor of Cain not marrying his sister, but marrying a very, very intelligent non-human, like the Neanderthals (but even more like us, genetically speaking). Their children, being descended from Adam and Eve, would have human souls rather than animal souls, and therefore wouldn’t be “half-animal” any more that we are; they would have 100% human DNA (the biology from both parents), and a 100% human soul (from Adam). No conflict with Humani Generis, and no conflict with the evidence of reason.
Peace and God bless!
Right. Except that under the theory of other humanoids, the second set of grandparents are not human (do not possess human souls, but perhaps similar human-compatible bodies). It is a given that indeed there was one man and woman to whom God infused rational souls, and these were our first human parents (Adam and Eve).
But if Cain mated with a non-human humanoid, it indeed brings two sets of parents into the tree, but one set wouldn’t be human. The offspring would biologically be half human but would have a human soul, and subject to original sin due to Adamic ancestry. Over time, this non-human species would have been absorbed or extinguished due to the more aggressive sapiens species, leaving only the modern human species.
But that’s a bit on the wild side. Nevertheless, the theory of non-human interbreeding reconciles with the required belief in monogenism.
(Aside: under this theory, Spock would be eligible for baptism, because he would have a human soul. Sarek, on the other hand, would not
).
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Ghosty
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Precisely. Whether correct or not, the idea I’m putting forth fits the requirements of monogenism set forth by the Church. It’s simply a possible solution, albeit the one that IMO best fits all the evidence as we know it (both revealed and scientific).Right. Except that under the theory of other humanoids, the second set of grandparents are not human (do not possess human souls, but perhaps similar human-compatible bodies). It is a given that indeed there was one man and woman to whom God infused rational souls, and these were our first human parents (Adam and Eve).
But if Cain mated with a non-human humanoid, it indeed brings two sets of parents into the tree, but one set wouldn’t be human. The offspring would biologically be half human but would have a human soul, and subject to original sin due to Adamic ancestry. Over time, this non-human species would have been absorbed or extinguished due to the more aggressive sapiens species, leaving only the modern human species.
But that’s a bit on the wild side. Nevertheless, the theory of non-human interbreeding reconciles with the required belief in monogenism.
(Aside: under this theory, Spock would be eligible for baptism, because he would have a human soul. Sarek, on the other hand, would not
And yes, Spock should be Baptized! Too bad the bizarre universe of Star Treck doesn’t even seem to acknowledge that Christianity was ever a human belief!
God Bless!
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Cranch
Guest
Neanderthals would not have been biologically identical with humans, so who exactly are you describing? Why would God create human simulacrums without souls or do you believe they evolved into everything Adam was except no soul. If Adam and Eve were created by God to be our first parents, that would be some evolutionary coincidence. Our souls are who we really are. Our essence. I find the idea of Cain coupling with some soulless “being” horrifying to contemplate.
Not knowing much about genetics, I’d be interested in learning exactly what this evidence is. And a little more about this idea of God lying to us.
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rwoehmke
Guest
That is the point! Something does not add up in these accounts.
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