I'm confused about Eastern Catholics and dogmatic teachings

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ok im confused, i thought the theology/doctrine is the same but the liturgy/discipline/devotions were different.

are you saying that EC’s dont have to accept dogma like for example the immaculate conception?

what about the filioque?
All Catholics, East or West, accept the same dogma. Their theology (expressions of the divine Truth) may be different though.

From my understanding, Eastern Catholics accept the Immaculate Conception, but they don’t understand it in the same way as Roman (western) Catholics.

Filioque is the same also. Eastern Catholics would say the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son. Western would say from the Father and the Son, while meaning the same thing.
 
I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to ridicule you. I realize that the precise tone of sarcasm can be difficult to convey through mere words, and I apologize for heedlessly giving the impression that I thought you worthy of “ridicule.”

Okay, but then how do you explain what is self-evident upon the lightest exposure to a different tradition of (orthodox) Christian theology - that vocabularies, methodologies, and even some fundamental principles do in fact vary? I don’t understand how you can think it credible to say that different theological traditions don’t - or can’t - interpret the dogmas of our faith differently…

To concretize my assertions: Pope Pius IX infallibly defined as a dogma of the faith the teaching that the Blessed Virgin Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin.

How do you deal with the fact that the very phrase “free from every stain of original sin” uses exclusively western terminology that must, if it is to be comprehended properly by eastern Catholics (let alone accepted), be “translated” into the theological vocabulary of the eastern tradition?

Perhaps I do. I confess I find it hard to believe that the assertion of yours to which I originally responded could be made by an individual who truly understands how different the eastern Christian approach can be from the Latin one…

I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings.

I’m pretty sure we’re both seeking the same thing, since we’re both Catholic. 🙂
Hi, Fone Bone 2001,

I know I came across as really snappy. I was having a super-bad day and my behaviour was not acceptable. I am sorry for it.

I have corresponded with a Byzantine Catholic Bishop (through a Byzantine aquaintance) regarding the apparent differences in expression in theology regarding the universal teachings of the Church. I pointed out to him the fact that many Byzantines and other Eastern “catholics” claim that they are free to express conclusions as truth which have been anathematized by the Council of Trent regarding original sin, and then claim they can believe what is objectively error regarding the Immaculate Conception, due to the eastern theological tradition allowing for these conclusions. He stated most emphatically that Easterns are not allowed to express what is anathema as if it were true and claim it is merely a different theological expression of the same truth. He even stated that Eastern Catholics most certainly believe in original sin and its effects as expressed in the language of the Universal Church (including the dogma of the Immaculate Conception). He seemed to state that in his view, where this notion of “different theological expression” comes in is in the contemplation and further exposition of these fundamental truths and how they relate to other truths in the seamless garment of the faith, not in the actual understanding of what these truths mean. He was very emphatic that there can be no difference in interpretation, only difference in theological development as to how one goes intellectually from one dogma to another, or from the scriptures/traditions to the propositions of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium to the solemn judgments.

It’s a totally different story when you deal with those who call themselves “eastern orthodox.” They have a separate theological tradition which allows them to conclude heretical notions from the dogmas and attempt to hold these conclusions as fact. They’re in a league of their own.

– Nicole
 
“elevator explanation”-EOC and RCC belive in the same, Jesus and Holy trinity, the only diference is in creed of Nicea-"…and the Holy Spirit who proceed from the Father(EOC) -AND from the Son-RCC". EOC does not belive in purgatory, priest can be married, some follow old calendar. Im not an expert and apologise if I did not contribute to the topic. God Bless! @ yablabo-elaborate this
please-It’s a totally different story when you deal with those who call themselves “eastern orthodox.” They have a separate theological tradition which allows them to conclude heretical notions from the dogmas and attempt to hold these conclusions as fact. They’re in a league of their own.
 
When it comes down to it, there is actually very little difference between the Eastern Orthodox of the Byzantine tradition (those who refer to themselves as “Orthodox” or “Eastern Orthodox;” I can’t speak for the Oriental Orthodox) and Catholicism. Contrary to what some have said here, the Orthodox do NOT affirm any sort of heresies. The Catechism of the Catholic Church recognizes this and says. It says that the Orthodox Churches possess the fullness of the means for salvation. The only thing they lack, according to the CCC, is communion with Rome.

The most commonly referred to differences between Catholic and Orthodox belief are the role of the Papacy within the Church at large (not just within the Roman Church), the filioque, the Immaculate Conception, and purgatory. Many Orthodox theologians have demonstrated that the filioque, the Immaculate Conception, and purgatory are really non-issues that have been blown out of proportion due to polemics. The main issue with the filioque is that it was inserted into the Creed without the consent of an ecumenical Council; but there is a way to understand the theology behind filioque that is perfectly orthodox/Orthodox.

The issue of purgatory is usually based off of an antiquated understanding of purgatory that the Church of Rome no longer ascribes to. This understanding makes purgatory sound like a temporary hell. Rome has rejected this understanding. What is essential in both Catholicism and Orthodoxy is that we believe there is a period of purification that takes place after death for those who are still in need of greater purification before they can fully behold the Divine Light. Anything beyond this is really just non-dogmatic theological speculation.

The Immaculate Conception is a much more complicated issue since it isn’t really centered so much on the Virgin Theotokos as it is on the different understandings of Original Sin. I feel I’m unqualified to say much about it because the more I’ve studied the more confused I’ve become over the issue. Suffice it to say that, once again, the understanding of Original Sin most often cited by Orthodox faithful as being Catholic belief has been largely clarified and corrected by the current Catechism of the Catholic Church, and greatly reflects Eastern belief on the matter. East-West polemicists have simply muddied the waters by assuming that scholars like Prof. John Romainides actually accurately portray Catholic thought.

All of this, of course, is very much a summary of the issues. If folks want to learn more there are plenty of great books and videos out there. I suggest starting out by checking out this lecture by Met. Kallistos Ware: oltv.tv/id219.html. I also suggest that both Catholics and Orthodox who are interested in these issues consult the Catechism of the Catholic Church in order to really understand what the Catholic Church actually teaches.
 
As far as Eastern Catholic theological approaches to the various dogmas of the Church are concerned, I suggest folks check out the wonderful interviews with the monks of Holy Resurrection Romanian Greek Catholic Monastery conducted by Catherine Alexander: youtube.com/user/YourWordFromTheWise/videos.

As the monks will point out, Eastern Catholics and Roman Catholics hold to the same essentials of the Faith. We believe in the same dogmas, otherwise we would not be in communion with one another. But we differ in practically everything else, including the theological expression of those dogmas. Eastern Catholics do not typically use language like “transubstantiation” or “Immaculate Conception.” We have our own theological language that expresses the same reality, while emphasizing a different aspect of that same reality. So we will speak of things like the Real Presence, or the “all holy, all pure, most highly blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever-Virgin Mary,” or she “who without corruption bore God the Word.” Fundamentally we are expressing the same realities, but using different language and emphasizing different aspects of those realities to the point that, on the surface at least (and sometimes a little further down than that), it really does look like we believe something different; but we don’t.
 
Contrary to what some have said here, the Orthodox do NOT affirm any sort of heresies. The Catechism of the Catholic Church recognizes this and says. It says that the Orthodox Churches possess the fullness of the means for salvation. The only thing they lack, according to the CCC, is communion with Rome.
Greetings brother Philip,

I certainly agree that we cannot call Orthodox heretics. However, I do not believe the CCC says exactly what you described. The quote below is from paragraph 816 and might not exactly support the belief that the Orthodox Churches possess the fullness of the means of salvation (despite any sympathies I have for it). 😦

*The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."

The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: “For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God.”*

Mar Yawsep, pray for us!
 
Hi, Fone Bone 2001,

I know I came across as really snappy. I was having a super-bad day and my behaviour was not acceptable. I am sorry for it.

I have corresponded with a Byzantine Catholic Bishop (through a Byzantine aquaintance) regarding the apparent differences in expression in theology regarding the universal teachings of the Church. I pointed out to him the fact that many Byzantines and other Eastern “catholics” claim that they are free to express conclusions as truth which have been anathematized by the Council of Trent regarding original sin, and then claim they can believe what is objectively error regarding the Immaculate Conception, due to the eastern theological tradition allowing for these conclusions. He stated most emphatically that Easterns are not allowed to express what is anathema as if it were true and claim it is merely a different theological expression of the same truth. He even stated that Eastern Catholics most certainly believe in original sin and its effects as expressed in the language of the Universal Church (including the dogma of the Immaculate Conception). He seemed to state that in his view, where this notion of “different theological expression” comes in is in the contemplation and further exposition of these fundamental truths and how they relate to other truths in the seamless garment of the faith, not in the actual understanding of what these truths mean. He was very emphatic that there can be no difference in interpretation, only difference in theological development as to how one goes intellectually from one dogma to another, or from the scriptures/traditions to the propositions of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium to the solemn judgments.

It’s a totally different story when you deal with those who call themselves “eastern orthodox.” They have a separate theological tradition which allows them to conclude heretical notions from the dogmas and attempt to hold these conclusions as fact. They’re in a league of their own.

– Nicole
Forgive me if I am being presumptuous, but your perspective seems not to take into account the great deal of nuance that comes into play when interpreting and understanding texts. Take for example, the concept of merits. That word has next to no meaning in Eastern theology, as it was never a concept used by the Greek Fathers. So how then is an Eastern Catholic supposed to understand the anathematism from Trent which states that through baptism, the merits of Christ are applied to the baptized? There, out of necessity, must be a redefinition, if you will, of what a merit is to make the concept fit well with Eastern theology, which understands salvation as being an ontological change, restricting the use of legal terminology (guilt, merit, etc.) to metaphors.

Those who are familiar with me here as a poster know that I am not too fond of the “it’s the same faith but with different ways of expressing it” mentality, but that is because I am not convinced that Latin theology reaches the same conclusions or describes the same faith as Eastern theology. These Eastern Catholic posters here, all good Christians (even the ones I constantly butt heads with 😉 ), and solid in their faith, however, have come to a different conclusion than mine, namely that authentic Eastern theology (the same theology used by the Orthodox) is not incompatible with beliefs held by the Roman Catholic Church, expressed primarily in Latin theology.

Out of an eirenic spirit of charity and love for your coreligionists, perhaps it would be best to lay your suspicions aside temporarily and to try to understand where they are coming from, and how they understand the Christian faith, before tossing around statements made by bishops, anathemas and conciliar statements. Many here, in fact, hold fast to the opinions of their own bishops, and they sincerely believe that their understanding of the faith does not contradict any dogmas defined by the Roman Catholic Church. Who knows, if you give these folks a chance to explain their understanding of Christianity, you may come to like it (or you might come to disagree with it, but that’s perfectly fine; Thomists and Scotists did not always agree, yet that didn’t make one side heretical for having a different understanding of a particular doctrine).
 
Greetings brother Philip,

I certainly agree that we cannot call Orthodox heretics. However, I do not believe the CCC says exactly what you described. The quote below is from paragraph 816 and might not exactly support the belief that the Orthodox Churches possess the fullness of the means of salvation (despite any sympathies I have for it). 😦

*The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."

The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: “For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God.”*

Mar Yawsep, pray for us!
You know what, I tried looking up the passages about the Orthodox Churches to which I was referring. It turns out, they aren’t in the CCC. 😊 I know I’ve read them somewhere. Perhaps they are in the documents of Vatican II. I’ll have to check there and get back to you. 😃
 
Maybe you’re talking about Dominus Iesus? 🤷 If the Catholic Church ever said that the “Orthodox Churches possess the fullness of salvation”, I would be pretty surprised. That is quite a radical statement, and out of line with what everything I’ve read so far. :flowers:
 
I certainly agree that we cannot call Orthodox heretics. However, I do not believe the CCC says exactly what you described. The quote below is from paragraph 816 and might not exactly support the belief that the Orthodox Churches possess the fullness of the means of salvation (despite any sympathies I have for it).
Yet we are also cautioned not to read or understand the CCC based on single statements, but on the CCC in its entirety. Structurally, even within a single section of the CCC, a paragraph read in isolation can lead to an erroneous understanding. Many of the advanced students of the CCC who post here on CAF and elsewhere will quote multiple paragraphs in order to make a complete point and valid citation.

As for the conclusions of VII, action speak louder than words. The mutual excommunications were lifted in 1965, and that began an extended period of formal dialogue between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches that continues to this day.

We leave it to the leaders of these Churches to reconcile the understanding of the faith, but it is clear through word and deed, including those of the current Pontiff and his predecessor of truly blessed memory, that the possibility for reconciliation exists.
 
I do readily admit to not being an advanced student of the CCC, as try to avoid using it. I was only making the point that I do not believe the Catholic Church would teach “Orthodox Churches possess the fullness of means for salvation”. It does clearly say that others outside the visible Catholic Church can be saved. However, the traditional claim has been that the Catholic Church (understood to be those Churches in communion with Pope of Rome, successor of Peter), is the one true Church through which all people are saved. Even Orthodox are only saved by virtue of their (imperfect) communion with this Church, not because they themselves can mediate salvation apart from Rome. I do find that Rome is moving away from this kind of view, but the statement made by brother Philip would be a very radical step in my eyes (one I would happily welcome though 🙂 ).

Peace, brother.
 
Those who are familiar with me here as a poster know that I am not too fond of the “it’s the same faith but with different ways of expressing it” mentality, but that is because I am not convinced that Latin theology reaches the same conclusions or describes the same faith as Eastern theology.
C - I for one enjoy your honest posts, and your clear witness to the Orthodox faith.

I also believe that your position (and that of many Orthodox Christians) as well articulated above is a healthy one for the entire Apostolic Church, even in the context of ecumenical dialogue between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, one which should yield greater understanding of the Truth in the end, if not full reconciliation and communion, we pray. In that way, what some view as “stubborn insistence” is a blessing to all of us.
These Eastern Catholic posters here, all good Christians (even the ones I constantly butt heads with 😉 ), and solid in their faith, however, have come to a different conclusion than mine, namely that authentic Eastern theology (the same theology used by the Orthodox) is not incompatible with beliefs held by the Roman Catholic Church, expressed primarily in Latin theology.
In honesty, many Eastern Catholics of my generation (including those who now serve as bishops, priests and deacons) were educated in a cross-polinated environment. Both out of necessity and in some ways by design, we were educated in the ways of West and the East. Some argue that we were more educated in the ways of the West than the East, and with merit. As we are pushed currently to restore our heritage, our level of catechesis on the ways of the East and the true nature of our religious heritage continues to be revealed to us, even the most faithful of “cradle” Byzantines who have not fully lived the ways of the East for a variety of reasons.

It is therefore not surprising that any Byzantine Catholic (from hierarch to lay person) might express views similar to those expounded in this thread and elsewhere. Yet to deny that there are indeed differences in understanding at the dogmatic level is actually contrary to the wishes of the Catholic Church, and unfaithful to our own mission as witnesses of our own Eastern traditions and theological heritage.

However, given that we have been educated and catechized in this way, we are indeed in a unique position at present to express with some confidence that our understandings of fundamental Truths have been largely reconciled to the point of having contemporarily validated the union of the Eastern Catholic Churches with Rome. I do believe that the unnamed bishop’s comments were offered largely in this vein.

It is for this reason that we hold out great hope for further reconciliation with the Orthodox. If one were to ask the same bishop who reportedly commented as stated above about the prospect for full communion with the Orthodox, I am quite certain a more complete and nuanced answer would be given on the topic of dogmatic understanding. It is also one that a bishop or priest would likely prefer to give face-to-face, in order to ensure that the message was understood.

I must confess that I personally have grown weary with the repeated attempts from many corners here and elsewhere to “water down” Eastern Catholicism to be nothing more that Roman Catholicism with Divine Liturgy, chant, icons and regular use of incense. We should all know better by now. I know the Catholic Church teaches at least that much, if not much more, about the Light of the East.
 
Right, valid point. I’m not sure how Eastern Catholics view this. I understand the arguement since I have heard it.
Obviously I can’t speak for them, but my general impression is that eastern Catholics believe the substance, the reality, of the dogma’s claim, although they wouldn’t of course express it as Pope Pius IX did…
On the other hand Original Sin is not a complete break for East theology I don’t think?
You’ll get tons of different answers and opinions on this question. I, however, agree with you, especially in light of the difference between guilt as culpa (which we don’t inherit) and guilt as reus (which we do inherit)…
All Catholics, East or West, accept the same dogma. Their theology (expressions of the divine Truth) may be different though.

From my understanding, Eastern Catholics accept the Immaculate Conception, but they don’t understand it in the same way as Roman (western) Catholics.
Well said, Swiss Guy!
Hi, Fone Bone 2001,

I know I came across as really snappy. I was having a super-bad day and my behaviour was not acceptable. I am sorry for it.
No problem, Nicole. I brought it on myself in a sense by initially responding in a needlessly snarky manner. I apologize as well. 🙂
I have corresponded with a Byzantine Catholic Bishop (through a Byzantine aquaintance) regarding the apparent differences in expression in theology regarding the universal teachings of the Church.
Okay.
I pointed out to him the fact that many Byzantines and other Eastern “catholics” claim that they are free to express conclusions as truth which have been anathematized by the Council of Trent regarding original sin,
Could you be more specific?

I do not believe this is the case. Much is made in east-west dialogue of the fact that the eastern tradition supposedly rejects the notion that we inherit the guilt of original sin, but usually the eastern Christians - whether Catholic or Orthodox - who point this out are failing to distinguish between culpa guilt and reus guilt, a distinction that Trent certainly and most carefully was aware of. All the dogmatic teachings of the Church on original sin teach that we inherit reus, but we do not inherit culpa; that’s why our contemporary Catechism of the Catholic Church says that the inherited guilt of original sin “does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendents” (CCC 405).

So I do in fact believe that the eastern conception of ancestral sin is in conformity with Catholic dogma. But perhaps you are referring to something else other than the “inherited guilt” dispute?
and then claim they can believe what is objectively error regarding the Immaculate Conception, due to the eastern theological tradition allowing for these conclusions.
Here as well, I must ask: what errors do eastern Catholics claim they can believe regarding the Immaculate Conception? I have never heard an eastern Catholic insist that the Theotokos was conceived with the stain of original sin on her soul. They wouldn’t say that, because the terminology is foreign to their theology - that’s the very reason for the confusion in the first place!
He stated most emphatically that Easterns are not allowed to express what is anathema as if it were true and claim it is merely a different theological expression of the same truth.
Right, of course.
He even stated that Eastern Catholics most certainly believe in original sin and its effects as expressed in the language of the Universal Church (including the dogma of the Immaculate Conception).
The vocabulary/terminology of Latin theology is indeed language used by the Catholic Church, but so is the vocabulary/terminology of eastern theology…
He seemed to state that in his view, where this notion of “different theological expression” comes in is in the contemplation and further exposition of these fundamental truths and how they relate to other truths in the seamless garment of the faith, not in the actual understanding of what these truths mean. He was very emphatic that there can be no difference in interpretation, only difference in theological development as to how one goes intellectually from one dogma to another, or from the scriptures/traditions to the propositions of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium to the solemn judgments.
Well, I certainly understand and agree that different theological expression comes in in the contemplation and exposition of fundamental truths and their relation to each other. It definitely seems like an oversimplification, though, to say that no difference exists “in the actual understanding of what these truths mean.” I’m not saying I disagree - in fact, I think the naysayers often ignore how much our different understandings actually coincide quite seamlessly - but to state categorically that this is always true? That’s a sweeping, bold claim that an hundred different monkey wrenches could be thrown into…
 
I pointed out to him the fact that many Byzantines and other Eastern “catholics” claim that they are free to express conclusions as truth which have been anathematized…
Also, one more thing: you really shouldn’t put quotes around the word “Catholics” when speaking of eastern Catholics. Whether you intended this or not (and I hope you didn’t), many eastern Catholics will, by virtue of such punctuation itself, get the impression that their status as full Catholics is being called into question. Because they are full members of the Catholic Church, in full communion with the Latin Church and with the Pope of Rome, they are rightfully sensitive to such implications and justly resent them. You should take care not to imply that their status as fully accepted Catholics is in question when it is emphatically not.
It’s a totally different story when you deal with those who call themselves “eastern orthodox.”
Just curious, why the quotes? Eastern Orthodox is what they’re justly and generally called. What would you call them?
They have a separate theological tradition which allows them to conclude heretical notions from the dogmas and attempt to hold these conclusions as fact.
Nicole, their theological tradition is that of Byzantine Christianity, which eastern Catholics of the Byzantine Rite share. It’s a “separate theological tradition” if by “separate” you mean separate from Latin/western Christianity, but it’s not separate from the tradition of the Byzantine Catholics. Byzantine Christianity is the tradition of both the Eastern Orthodox and the eastern Catholics who use the Byzantine Rite.
They’re in a league of their own.
If the eastern Catholics are, so to speak, “doing it right,” then they should be almost indistinguishable from the eastern Orthodox (or Oriental Orthodox, etc.). The ideal is that if you or I should walk blindfolded into an eastern Christian temple and then, with blindfold removed, participate in Divine Liturgy, only one thing (to untrained eyes and ears) should indicate whether it is an Orthodox or Eastern Catholic parish: whether or not the Pope of Rome is commemorated in the diptychs.
When it comes down to it, there is actually very little difference between the Eastern Orthodox of the Byzantine tradition (those who refer to themselves as “Orthodox” or “Eastern Orthodox;” I can’t speak for the Oriental Orthodox) and Catholicism. Contrary to what some have said here, the Orthodox do NOT affirm any sort of heresies. The Catechism of the Catholic Church recognizes this and says. It says that the Orthodox Churches possess the fullness of the means for salvation. The only thing they lack, according to the CCC, is communion with Rome.

The most commonly referred to differences between Catholic and Orthodox belief are the role of the Papacy within the Church at large (not just within the Roman Church), the filioque, the Immaculate Conception, and purgatory. Many Orthodox theologians have demonstrated that the filioque, the Immaculate Conception, and purgatory are really non-issues that have been blown out of proportion due to polemics. The main issue with the filioque is that it was inserted into the Creed without the consent of an ecumenical Council; but there is a way to understand the theology behind filioque that is perfectly orthodox/Orthodox.

The issue of purgatory is usually based off of an antiquated understanding of purgatory that the Church of Rome no longer ascribes to. This understanding makes purgatory sound like a temporary hell. Rome has rejected this understanding. What is essential in both Catholicism and Orthodoxy is that we believe there is a period of purification that takes place after death for those who are still in need of greater purification before they can fully behold the Divine Light. Anything beyond this is really just non-dogmatic theological speculation.

The Immaculate Conception is a much more complicated issue since it isn’t really centered so much on the Virgin Theotokos as it is on the different understandings of Original Sin. I feel I’m unqualified to say much about it because the more I’ve studied the more confused I’ve become over the issue. Suffice it to say that, once again, the understanding of Original Sin most often cited by Orthodox faithful as being Catholic belief has been largely clarified and corrected by the current Catechism of the Catholic Church, and greatly reflects Eastern belief on the matter. East-West polemicists have simply muddied the waters by assuming that scholars like Prof. John Romainides actually accurately portray Catholic thought.

All of this, of course, is very much a summary of the issues. If folks want to learn more there are plenty of great books and videos out there. I suggest starting out by checking out this lecture by Met. Kallistos Ware: oltv.tv/id219.html. I also suggest that both Catholics and Orthodox who are interested in these issues consult the Catechism of the Catholic Church in order to really understand what the Catholic Church actually teaches.
Well said, every bit of it. 👍
 
Forgive me if I am being presumptuous, but your perspective seems not to take into account the great deal of nuance that comes into play when interpreting and understanding texts. Take for example, the concept of merits. That word has next to no meaning in Eastern theology, as it was never a concept used by the Greek Fathers. So how then is an Eastern Catholic supposed to understand the anathematism from Trent which states that through baptism, the merits of Christ are applied to the baptized? There, out of necessity, must be a redefinition, if you will, of what a merit is to make the concept fit well with Eastern theology, which understands salvation as being an ontological change, restricting the use of legal terminology (guilt, merit, etc.) to metaphors.
Exactly. Thank you, Cavaradossi. Sometimes Latin Catholics act as though the need for redefinition, for “translation,” necessarily indicates denial of a statement like Trent’s assertion about baptism and merit. This, however, is not true: the need for such theological “translation” does not in and of itself indicate denial or dissent, and I believe that Latin Catholics owe our eastern brothers and sisters who are in full communion with us a respect that demands we not presume such a thing unless given a clear and compelling reason to do so.
Those who are familiar with me here as a poster know that I am not too fond of the “it’s the same faith but with different ways of expressing it” mentality, but that is because I am not convinced that Latin theology reaches the same conclusions or describes the same faith as Eastern theology. These Eastern Catholic posters here, all good Christians (even the ones I constantly butt heads with 😉 ), and solid in their faith, however, have come to a different conclusion than mine, namely that authentic Eastern theology (the same theology used by the Orthodox) is not incompatible with beliefs held by the Roman Catholic Church, expressed primarily in Latin theology.

Out of an eirenic spirit of charity and love for your coreligionists, perhaps it would be best to lay your suspicions aside temporarily and to try to understand where they are coming from, and how they understand the Christian faith, before tossing around statements made by bishops, anathemas and conciliar statements. Many here, in fact, sincerely believe that their understanding of the faith does not contradict any dogmas defined by the Roman Catholic Church.
Yes, I agree that for Latin Catholics learning about the eastern Catholic churches, this attitude of openness, docility, and trust is the appropriate one.
Who knows, if you give these folks a chance to explain their understanding of Christianity, you may come to like it (or you might come to disagree with it, but that’s perfectly fine; Thomists and Scotists did not always agree, yet that didn’t make one side heretical for having a different understanding of a particular doctrine).
Great point.
I must confess that I personally have grown weary with the repeated attempts from many corners here and elsewhere to “water down” Eastern Catholicism to be nothing more that Roman Catholicism with Divine Liturgy, chant, icons and regular use of incense. We should all know better by now. I know the Catholic Church teaches at least that much, if not much more, about the Light of the East.
Indeed.
 
C - I for one enjoy your honest posts, and your clear witness to the Orthodox faith.

I also believe that your position (and that of many Orthodox Christians) as well articulated above is a healthy one for the entire Apostolic Church, even in the context of ecumenical dialogue between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, one which should yield greater understanding of the Truth in the end, if not full reconciliation and communion, we pray. In that way, what some view as “stubborn insistence” is a blessing to all of us.

In honesty, many Eastern Catholics of my generation (including those who now serve as bishops, priests and deacons) were educated in a cross-polinated environment. Both out of necessity and in some ways by design, we were educated in the ways of West and the East. Some argue that we were more educated in the ways of the West than the East, and with merit. As we are pushed currently to restore our heritage, our level of catechesis on the ways of the East and the true nature of our religious heritage continues to be revealed to us, even the most faithful of “cradle” Byzantines who have not fully lived the ways of the East for a variety of reasons.
Did you see that post in the catechism thread with the response of the Eastern Catholic bishops to the proposed universal catechism (destined to become the CCC)? I found their criticisms rather well thought out. That process of restoration you mention seems to be working.
It is therefore not surprising that any Byzantine Catholic (from hierarch to lay person) might express views similar to those expounded in this thread and elsewhere. Yet to deny that there are indeed differences in understanding at the dogmatic level is actually contrary to the wishes of the Catholic Church, and unfaithful to our own mission as witnesses of our own Eastern traditions and theological heritage.

However, given that we have been educated and catechized in this way, we are indeed in a unique position at present to express with some confidence that our understandings of fundamental Truths have been largely reconciled to the point of having contemporarily validated the union of the Eastern Catholic Churches with Rome. I do believe that the unnamed bishop’s comments were offered largely in this vein.

It is for this reason that we hold out great hope for further reconciliation with the Orthodox. If one were to ask the same bishop who reportedly commented as stated above about the prospect for full communion with the Orthodox, I am quite certain a more complete and nuanced answer would be given on the topic of dogmatic understanding. It is also one that a bishop or priest would likely prefer to give face-to-face, in order to ensure that the message was understood.
That is true. As the East and West continue to interact, I think that people will stop looking simply at how we are different (eventually, the novelty will wear off), and start looking at why Eastern and Western thought started to diverge in the first place. This is a scary process, especially for those who have fundamentalist leanings to their faith, but it is already starting to happen. Look for example how the Chalcedonians have begun to interact with the Non-Chalcedonian Miaphysites: we’ve largely gotten past that silly mentality of finding a “gotcha moment” which causes the other theology to fall apart, and instead we’re seriously going back to the sources to examine why Chalcedon is so divisive. Explaining a process like this is definitely something a bishop would want to do in person, in order to prevent confusion.
I must confess that I personally have grown weary with the repeated attempts from many corners here and elsewhere to “water down” Eastern Catholicism to be nothing more that Roman Catholicism with Divine Liturgy, chant, icons and regular use of incense. We should all know better by now. I know the Catholic Church teaches at least that much, if not much more, about the Light of the East.
I am in agreement.
 
I would like to offer some thoughts on the Council of Trent in its decrees on Original Sin, and see how Eastern Catholics would understand them. I’ll give the original in quotations, then respond in bold:

“1. If any one does not confess that the first man, Adam, when he had transgressed the commandment of God in Paradise, immediately lost the holiness and justice wherein he had been constituted; and that he incurred, through the offence of that prevarication, the wrath and indignation of God, and consequently death, with which God had previously threatened him, and, together with death, captivity under his power who thenceforth had the empire of death, that is to say, the devil, and that the entire Adam, through that offence of prevarication, was changed, in body and soul, for the worse; let him be anathema.”

This seems to say that death is a punishment which God inflicted upon man in wrath for his sin. This is contrary to the Orthodox teaching that death is the natural result of sin, which creates alienation from God, the source of life. This language reminds of strongly of Anselm of Canterbury in “Cur Deus Homo” who argued that the purpose of the Incarnation was to appease the wrath of God. Our problem is not the wrath of God, who “desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth”, but of our bondage to sin, death, and the Devil.

“2. If any one asserts, that the prevarication of Adam injured himself alone, and not his posterity; and that the holiness and justice, received of God, which he lost, he lost for himself alone, and not for us also; or that he, being defiled by the sin of disobedience, has only transfused death, and pains of the body, into the whole human race, but not sin also, which is the death of the soul; let him be anathema:–whereas he contradicts the apostle who says; By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.”

The translation in the Vulgate “in whom all have sinned” is incorrect. The verse actually reads “because all men have sinned”. We would disagree that we inherited sin in the sense of a thing, but rather that we inherited a corrupt nature, death, and alienation from God. We are not guilty of Adam’s sin, but we do face the consequences of that action.

“3. If any one asserts, that this sin of Adam,–which in its origin is one, and being transfused into all by propogation, not by imitation, is in each one as his own, --is taken away either by the powers of human nature, or by any other remedy than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath reconciled us to God in his own blood, made unto us justice, santification, and redemption; or if he denies that the said merit of Jesus Christ is applied, both to adults and to infants, by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the church; let him be anathema: For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be [Page 23] saved. Whence that voice; Behold the lamb of God behold him who taketh away the sins of the world; and that other; As many as have been baptized, have put on Christ.”

The idea of the “merit” of Jesus Christ is foreign to Orthodoxy, but otherwise I have no disagreements with this paragraph.

“4. If any one denies, that infants, newly born from their mothers’ wombs, even though they be sprung from baptized parents, are to be baptized; or says that they are baptized indeed for the remission of sins, but that they derive nothing of original sin from Adam, which has need of being expiated by the laver of regeneration for the obtaining life everlasting,–whence it follows as a consequence, that in them the form of baptism, for the remission of sins, is understood to be not true, but false, --let him be anathema. For that which the apostle has said, By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men in whom all have sinned, is not to be understood otherwise than as the Catholic Church spread everywhere hath always understood it. For, by reason of this rule of faith, from a tradition of the apostles, even infants, who could not as yet commit any sin of themselves, are for this cause truly baptized for the remission of sins, that in them that may be cleansed away by regeneration, which they have contracted by generation. For, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

The assertion here seems to be that infants require Baptism because they possess sin itself, not just the consequences of Adam’s sin. Again we see the quotation of “in whom all men have sinned” as the key passage for this understanding.

cont.
 
“5. If any one denies, that, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only rased, or not imputed; let him be anathema. For, in those who are born again, there is nothing that God hates; because, There is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism into death; who walk not according to the flesh, but, putting off the old man, and putting on the new who is created according to God, are made inno-[Page 24]cent, immaculate, pure, harmless, and beloved of God, heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ; so that there is nothing whatever to retard their entrance into heaven. But this holy synod confesses and is sensible, that in the baptized there remains concupiscence, or an incentive (to sin); which, whereas it is left for our exercise, cannot injure those who consent not, but resist manfully by the grace of Jesus Christ; yea, he who shall have striven lawfully shall be crowned. This concupiscence, which the apostle sometimes calls sin, the holy Synod declares that the Catholic Church has never understood it to be called sin, as being truly and properly sin in those born again, but because it is of sin, and inclines to sin.
This same holy Synod doth nevertheless declare, that it is not its intention to include in this decree, where original sin is treated of, the blessed and immaculate Virgin Mary, the mother of God; but that the constitutions of Pope Sixtus IV., of happy memory, are to be observed, under the pains contained in the said constitutions, which it renews.”

Again I see an emphasis on the wrath of God as the problem with man faces.

history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct05.html
 
… has only transfused death, and pains of the body, into the whole human race, but not sin also, which is the death of the soul …
This phrase defines sin in the sense intended.

The dogma is saying that all men are born without the life of God in their soul. Or, said another way, all men are born spiritually dead. Or, again, all men are born in the state of sin as opposed to the state of grace.

It isn’t talking about a personal guilt.
 
This phrase defines sin in the sense intended.

The dogma is saying that all men are born without the life of God in their soul. Or, said another way, all men are born spiritually dead. Or, again, all men are born in the state of sin as opposed to the state of grace.

It isn’t talking about a personal guilt.
How would you understanding the following from paragraph 5?

“If any one denies, that, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted… let him be anathema.”
 
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