I'm confused. Matthew 1:24-25

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“When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded and took Mary as his wife. But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.” Matthew 1:24-25

I thought Mary always stayed a virgin. :confused:
 
Matthew is trying to establish that there’s no way that Joseph was Jesus’ natural father, so he’s pointing out that there was no physical intercourse between Mary and Joseph prior to Jesus’ birth.

Moreover, the word in the original Greek implies only that “up until” that time there was no intercourse; the usage of that preposition doesn’t imply anything at all about what happened after (which we, as Catholics, assert that there continued to be no physical intercourse between Mary and Joseph).

Hope that helps!

(Edited to add:) Oh – and the explicit mention that Joseph named him Jesus is relevant, too… the legal father of a child had the right to name the child (take a look at the story of John the Baptist’s birth). So, Matthew is saying both that Joseph was not Jesus’ natural father and that Joseph was his (adoptive / legal) father – in other words, there was no other man in the picture who could claim (human) fatherhood…
 
An example of the word “until” as used in the context above would be this:

“She loved her husband until the day he died.”

Now, that doesn’t mean to imply that she stopped loving him after he was dead, correct? Same thing here.
 
“When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded and took Mary as his wife. But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.” Matthew 1:24-25

I thought Mary always stayed a virgin. :confused:
catholic.com/magazine/articles/the-case-for-mary%E2%80%99s-perpetual-virginity

By the way, as you are a supporter of Luther you might like to know that Luther declared in writing that Mary was a perpetual virgin. In fact all the founders of Protestantism did so.
 
“Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death” (2 Sam. 6:23) – Does this mean that Michal had children after she died?

“And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher; she was of a great age, having lived with her husband seven years from her virginity, and as a widow till she was eighty-four” (Lk 2:36-37) – Does this mean that Anna was no longer a widow after the age of eighty-four?

There have been certain folk who have wished to suggest from this passage (Matthew 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph’s obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company.
 
I never said I supported Luther. I was just trying to stop the false information that you were spreading about him.
I did not spread any false information about him.
He abandoned the Church, rejected many of its teachings, made up his own doctrines, rubbished any book in the Bible that contradicted his own doctrines.
He was a heretic and excommunicated. All of that is true.
 
I did not spread any false information about him.
He abandoned the Church, rejected many of its teachings, made up his own doctrines, rubbished any book in the Bible that contradicted his own doctrines.
He was a heretic and excommunicated. All of that is true.
He did not remove any book from the Bible. That’s a FACT.

He did not want to leave the Catholic Church; he was forced to.

The Catholic Church considered him a heretic, but Protestants and others sure don’t.
 
He did not remove any book from the Bible. That’s a FACT.
Zenkai,

That rings a bell with me – I’m not sure, but it seems to me that you’re accurate. However, his actions led to the situation whereby his followers removed canonical books from the Bible. You remember what Jesus said about those whose actions lead others into sin, right…? 😦
He did not want to leave the Catholic Church; he was forced to.
This is an interesting statement.

In the entire history of the Church, no one has ever been forced to leave. On the other hand, those who persist obstinately in their desire to hold to positions contrary to the Church have felt that they must choose between their opinions and the positions of the Church. If they then say, “I was forced to leave the Church”, it’s shorthand for “I was forced to leave the Church … or follow her guidance”. Big difference between the two…!

(In fact, others who had similar problems with Church disciplines actually stuck around, and staying with the Church, helped catalyze the Counter-Reformation. Why were they, who responded to the same set of stimuli, not “forced to leave the Church”…? :hmmm:
 
He did not remove any book from the Bible. That’s a FACT.

He did not want to leave the Catholic Church; he was forced to.

The Catholic Church considered him a heretic, but Protestants and others sure don’t.
You obviously do not understand what heretic means. It means any Catholic who rejects one or more of the infallible teachings of the Church.
Luther was a Catholic who rejected more than one infallible teaching of the Church which makes him a heretic. He would not repent and walked away from the Church and was excommunicated. It was his choice. He was not thrown out.

On the books in the Bible you did not read my comments carefully. I said he rubbished any book in the Bible that contradicted his own personal doctrines.
 
I did not spread any false information about him.
He abandoned the Church, rejected many of its teachings, made up his own doctrines, rubbished any book in the Bible that contradicted his own doctrines.
He was a heretic and excommunicated. All of that is true.
Of course, I was not there and did not know Luther Personally but I did read a biography of Luther that had copies of letters he sent the Church and the secular government (princes). Luther never wanted to leave the church and I read letters of his begging to be allowed to stay in the Church. About the ideas he posted on the door of the church in Wittenburg, Luther wrote in a letter to a high official in the Church, “I never intended for lay people to read these. I only wanted to debate them with other theologians. The proof of this is I wrote my ideas in Latin, which the people can’t read.”

I am not disputing you on anything you said except I wanted to clarify about Luther “abandoning” the Church. He wanted to stay but as you say he was excommunicated. You are right (as you know you are) about him wanting to get rid of any book in the Bible that did not agree with his doctrines. He wanted to take the Book of James and the book of Revelation out of the Bible but was outvoted. God bless you and lead all of us children to God’s Truth.
 
“When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded and took Mary as his wife. But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.” Matthew 1:24-25

I thought Mary always stayed a virgin. :confused:
Joseph and Mary must have been legally married, for Joseph “took Mary as his wife.” Is it possible that they did not have sexual relations all those years living under one roof as husband and wife?
 
Joseph and Mary must have been legally married, for Joseph “took Mary as his wife.” Is it possible that they did not have sexual relations all those years living under one roof as husband and wife?
Why would it not be possible? There have been millions of people over the centuries who have led a celibate life. We also don’t know how many years they lived under one roof. By the time Jesus was leading his ministry Joseph was no longer in the picture. We don’t know how old Joseph was at the time of marriage, though we can guess.

Some of the documents from the time indicate that Joseph was not just a husband, but a protector. A man chosen to protect Mary who was dedicated to God in the temple. This is foreign to our minds today but a common thing of that time period.
 
Why would it not be possible? There have been millions of people over the centuries who have led a celibate life. We also don’t know how many years they lived under one roof. By the time Jesus was leading his ministry Joseph was no longer in the picture. We don’t know how old Joseph was at the time of marriage, though we can guess.

Some of the documents from the time indicate that Joseph was not just a husband, but a protector. A man chosen to protect Mary who was dedicated to God in the temple. This is foreign to our minds today but a common thing of that time period.
Just wondering. Joseph and Mary were both human beings, were they not? Also, God never told Joseph to not ever have sexual relations with Mary. Mary also was not commanded by God to remain a virgin forever, right? So, why would they not have sexual relations during their many years of married life when God never forbid it?
 
🤷 There are many reasons to remain a virgin. You are assuming that being human means you’ll want to have sex or need to have sex. Mary is believed to have given an oath to God at an early age to always remain a virgin. This is why when the angel announced that she would have a son she said “How can this be?” She was already betrothed. As a woman of that culture, she would know very well where kids come from. If she had been planning on having sex after marriage, then she wouldn’t have asked how could this be, but simply realized that eventually she would indeed have kids.

There are many reasons not to have sex.
 
Joseph and Mary must have been legally married, for Joseph “took Mary as his wife.” Is it possible that they did not have sexual relations all those years living under one roof as husband and wife?
Which is more difficult for you to believe, that it is possible for a married couple to live together in celibacy, or a virgin could conceive a baby? Which is more difficult to believe, that a husband and wife did not have sexual relations, or that angels appeared to shepherds singing God’s glory to announce the birth of Mary’s baby?

Mary is a unique creature for several reasons. She is the mother of God the Savior of us all. She conceived God the Son by God the Holy Spirit.

In the Old Testament God says He is the faithful spouse of Israel and Israel is unfaithful to Him. Through the prophets He speaks of Israel’s unfaithfulness in chasing after other gods likening Isreal to an adlutleress wife.

Jesus refers to Himself as the bridegroom and His Church, the people of God, male and female, as His bride.

Mary in conceiving by the Holy Spirit, within Mary heaven and earth are joined, married. In the person of Jesus the God-man, God becomes joined (married) to humanity forever. He took His body to heaven with Him. He is ascended to heaven bodily.

This joining of God and man took place in a place. In the Old Testament we see the Arc of the Covenant. It is the place where God dwells. It is the dwelling place of God made by the hands of men. Any man who would touch this Arc of the Covenant would die and that happened when a man reached up to stop the Arc from falling. On the surface this seems like God killed a man for trying to do something good. But there is something there for us to see. Why is this thing withing which God dwelt called an arc? Think about Noah’s arc that protected Noah and his family from destruction and carried them as survivors of the flood to safety.

Mary is the living arc of the covenant, the God bearer. She bore and carried God. By conceiving of God the Holy Spirit she becomes the spouse of the Holy Spirit, the virgin arc of the New and Everlasting Covenant and no man can touch her. She is the faithful spouse of God, and His mother.

She is also a child of God, a daughter, as the rest of us are children of God the Father.

This woman is very unique whether or not anyone agree with the Marian doctrines of the Catholic Church.

But Protestants do not simply reject these doctrines. They deny she is unique by saying she is an ordinary woman, no different than any other. This is completely irrational. How many women were visited by an archangel who said she is full of grace to announce to them that they would become pregnant with and give birth to God? How many ordinary women were impregnated by the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity?

There must be many woman who experienced these things if Mary is an ordinary woman, nothing special, a useful vehicle who then got on with an ordinary life. If there are no such women she is certainly not ordinary. She is a special creature, made by God totally unique in salvation history.

Jesus is Son of God and Son of Mary. Doesn’t that make Mary married to God? If she who is the living Arc of the Covenant who conceived God by God has relations with, is touched by a man doesn’t that make her an adulteress and the man is struck dead?

Apparently it is more difficult for Protestants to believe that a woman and man could live together without having sexual relations than a woman could conceive a child by the power of God and give birth to God. It is impossible for a man and a woman to live together without sex, but there is no problem believing a virgin could be a mother.

Luther always revered Mary and did not question the Marian doctrines of the Catholic Church. Those who are separated from the Catholic Church and defend Luther’s doctrines do. We can only conclude that they do not agree with the man whose doctrines they claim to embrace. They see no disconnect (further separation and disunity) in this.

The person God created to give motherly comfort and consolation to His people is lost to those who reject her and they see no loss. They are happy to be rid of her. They tell Jesus they want no part of His mother. There is no room for her in their theology or in their faith lives and they see no insult to Jesus in this.
 
🤷 There are many reasons to remain a virgin. You are assuming that being human means you’ll want to have sex or need to have sex. Mary is believed to have given an oath to God at an early age to always remain a virgin. This is why when the angel announced that she would have a son she said “How can this be?” She was already betrothed. As a woman of that culture, she would know very well where kids come from. If she had been planning on having sex after marriage, then she wouldn’t have asked how could this be, but simply realized that eventually she would indeed have kids.

There are many reasons not to have sex.
I am assuming that a married couple will naturally have sexual relations. Have you ever heard of a healthy young man and woman who have been married for 30 years and yet have not had sexual relations even once?

Where is it mentioned in Scripture that Mary had given an oath to God that she would remain a virgin all her life? Yes, Mary was “betrothed” when the angel told her that she would conceive and have a son. But a betrothed woman, in Jewish practice, has not yet been bound in marriage to her husband. She is still “engaged” as we call it. The betrothed woman remained in her father’s house until the wedding ceremony, called “kiddushin” ceremony. Only after this kiddushin ceremony can the husband take the wife to his own house and consummate the marriage in sexual union. Of course Mary would wonder why she would conceive, because at the time of the angel’s announcement she was still a virgin.

There is nothing in Scripture that even remotely suggests that Mary remained a virgin throughout her life. Why insist that she remained a virgin? Why is it so important that she remain a virgin? Would her stature diminish if she had lived a normal married life?
 
The reason Catholics hold she is a perpetual virgin is because we don’t see her as just any other woman. We see her as the Ark of the New Covenant. We also don’t hold to just scripture, we hold to tradition. Tradition says that she was perpetually a virgin. (Other sources outside of the bible written early on also hold to that belief.) Why is it so important to YOU that she not be a virgin?
 
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