I'm confused on what's allowed or not anymore

[Jon_S_1]

There is a dogma that only males can receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders.

Your confusion is that Deacons and Deaconess are the same office, they are not. The Eastern Orthodox still retain the Office of Deaconess, it is equivalent to what we would call a Mother Superior for a non clostered order. And, like us, the Orthodox do not admission to such an office to be a reception of Holy Orders.

So a male can become a Deacon, and a female can become a Deaconess, but the roles differ.

Thank you. I fully agree. So why is it so outrageous to have a girls
Serve at the altar, or women lectors or even deaconesses!

I say let the ladies work!

 

[Elizium23]

There is a dogma that only males can receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders.

Close. This is doctrine, not dogma. At least you are correct about what it states, rather than Jon S’s wildly inaccurate negative generalization.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Close. This is doctrine, not dogma. At least you are correct about what it states, rather than Jon S’s wildly inaccurate negative generalization.

Why would you say it’s not dogma? Didn’t Jesus only ordain men? Doesn’t our justification of this come ultimately to that?

I don’t see it as developing much

 

[larsont7]

Anyone who says that having altar girls serving is causing a reduction in the number of vocations will have a tremendous amount of research to do to support that. Post hoc ergo propter hoc is a classic logical fallacy.

This article from last October addresses the issue, and though certainly not conclusive, does raise some interesting points: liturgyguy.com/2013/10/06/altar-boys-and-the-priesthood/

Unfortunately I don’t think there have been any thorough studies on the subject, though you would think with the continuing priest shortage we are facing, the Church would take the time and money to fund this kind of research.

Speaking from personal experience, I know of families who have young boys that do not want to serve at their parish because the parish predominantly has altar girls, and at that age, boys generally want to be around other boys. Whether or not this will hinder the boys’ desires to become priests, who knows.

I do know that our parish (of about 250-300 families) has recently had 2 ordinations to the priesthood, 2 enter the convent, 3 currently enrolled in seminary, and 3 in monastic life. I belong to an EF parish that only has altar boys. Again, this is not conclusive, just personal experience.

 

[Elizium23]

It is not essential or central to the faith. It is not on any list of dogmas(sic) of the Catholic Church. (I am not linking to those lists due to unreliability of the sources).

 

[larsont7]

It is not essential or central to the faith. It is not on any list of dogmas(sic) of the Catholic Church. (I am not linking to those lists due to unreliability of the sources).

Never said it was dogma nor essential to our faith. It does, however, pass the common sense test. The more that boys get to see what priests do in Mass and the more they spend time serving at the altar, the greater the likelihood of them considering a vocation to the priesthood.

And I think you can say the converse with altar girls. The more time girls spend serving at the altar, the greater the likelihood they will be in support of women’s ordination in the future. I mean, what girl wouldn’t have the thought, “this is something I could do, too”?

Again, not dogma, just common sense.

 

[Elizium23]

Never said it was dogma nor essential to our faith.

Again, not dogma, just common sense.

I was not replying to you on the subject of altar girls. I was replying to Jon S on our extended discussion of dogmata and what they say. I think everyone is clear now that the use of altar servers is a discipline.

If the early church had deaconesses I see no reason they can’t be altar servers. After all it’s a discipline. The dogma is that males and females can be deacons or hold any other position in the church other than priest or bishop.

That’s the dogma

The discipline of many centuries was to have males do most of this. There is no reason to oppose a change in discipline regarding altar servers or foot washing.

The more we enable woman to hold valid positions in the church, the less they will feel a need to go become “female priests” in the liberal “catholic” churches.

 

[otjm]

This article from last October addresses the issue, and though certainly not conclusive, does raise some interesting points: liturgyguy.com/2013/10/06/altar-boys-and-the-priesthood/

It most certainly is not conclusive. There is so much information that is not addressed in the study, that it is hard to know where to begin. Note: I am a strong supporter of CARA.

How many of them attended Catholic college/ How many Catholic high school? How many Catholic grade school? How many a combination of the above?

What size of families? What age did they start seminary?

Do those statistics vary much from, say, the statistics of 1964 (if there were any)? 1954? 1944?

Out of the number of women who have joined an order of sisters or nuns, how many of them were altar servers? And etc. of all of the above questions?

How many (of either men or women) were from families of three or more children? And this is just scratching the surface.

What effect is secularism playing in the reduction of the numbers of vocations? Careerism? Why are the majority of vocations later in life? What factors play into the delay? Again, just a few of the questions that need to be asked.

Unfortunately I don’t think there have been any thorough studies on the subject, though you would think with the continuing priest shortage we are facing, the Church would take the time and money to fund this kind of research.

Speaking from personal experience, I know of families who have young boys that do not want to serve at their parish because the parish predominantly has altar girls, and at that age, boys generally want to be around other boys. Whether or not this will hinder the boys’ desires to become priests, who knows.

This card keeps being played. We also had more Catholic schools 50 years ago. And the issue is simply a matter of parenting. We have far too few parents with enough backbone to make the decisions, instead of rolling over and letting a 6th or 7th grader make them.

I do know that our parish (of about 250-300 families) has recently had 2 ordinations to the priesthood, 2 enter the convent, 3 currently enrolled in seminary, and 3 in monastic life. I belong to an EF parish that only has altar boys. Again, this is not conclusive, just personal experience.

And I belong to an OF parish that has produced 2 deacons and a third candidate who has just finished his Masters: at least three priests, a seminarian who decided this was not his calling, and a professed sister in what is considered a “conservative” order (identifiable habit). And she was an alter server.

There are a multitude of issues at play as to why there have been a reduction in vocations; it is simplistic to point at who serves and attempt to show that is the cause of the reduction. Which is not to say that it has or has not any impact. Only that as it stands, it is not much better than post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

Your experience is unusual; and the question is, what other factors are at play in the matter?

 

[Tigg]

This makes sense to me (emphasis mine):

Here’s what we do at our parish–which may answer some of the problems traddies have with girl altar servers and address some of the current issues.

First of all we don’t have unisex robes. The boys wear cassocks and surplices. The girls wear white cassock albs. Why is this? Because boys and girls should dress differently. They’re not the same and so different robes help them identify with each other and boosts their proper gender development.

Second: the boys and girls serve at different Masses. We have two masses a week–a vigil and a Sunday morning. Girls serve the vigil one week and boys Sunday morning. The next week vice versa. This helps to avoid the problem of the boys leaving because serving is ‘girly’. The boys serve with boys and the girls with girls. The kids seem to like this too, and we’ve had no complaints.

Third: there’s a dress code. Boys and girls must wear black shoes–boys dress shoes and girls flat black slip ons. Girls have their hair tied back. Nothing should draw attention to itself for either boys or girls. Wacky haircuts, tattoos, nail polish or jewelry are out. That goes for the priest too…

patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2012/04/should-we-have-girl-altar-servers.html#ixzz3431PRchY

In a former parish there were complaints about the altar girls and it did disturb me too to see dangly earrings, blue eyeshadow and bright pink toenails peeking from their sandals.

In our current parish, no girls may serve, and no, we do not have the TLM.

 

[ProVobis]

This makes sense to me (emphasis mine):

FWIW, it makes sense to me as well.

 

[Vico]

Re: “There is a dogma that only males can receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders.”

Close. This is doctrine, not dogma. At least you are correct about what it states, rather than Jon S’s wildly inaccurate negative generalization.

*Ordinatio Sacerdotalis *
Pope John Paul II
Apostolic Letter On Reserving Priestly Ordination To Men Alone
4. Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force.

 Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great     importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue     of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. <Lk> 22:32) I declare that the Church     has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment     is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful.

 Invoking an abundance of divine assistance upon you, venerable Brothers, and upon all     the faithful, I impart my Apostolic Blessing.

 From the Vatican, on 22 May, the Solemnity of Pentecost, in the year 1994, the     sixteenth of my Pontificate.

ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2ordin.htm