I'm disappointed when I do not actively (through time) love Him as I ought

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+JMJ+
In one word, LOVE! Smoking medical marijuana or drinking coffee usually results in feelings of LOVE, both towards God and my neighbors.
Maybe you can use coffee to get awake so you can love better (no comment on the medical marijuana), but to use substances to generate “feelings” of love? No matter how harmless or harmful those substances may be, what you are doing is NOT true Catholic spirituality.

You do not generate “feelings” of “love” towards God and neighbors, you LOVE God and neighbors.
 
+JMJ+

Maybe you can use coffee to get awake so you can love better (no comment on the medical marijuana), but to use substances to generate “feelings” of love? No matter how harmless or harmful those substances may be, what you are doing is NOT true Catholic spirituality.

You do not generate “feelings” of “love” towards God and neighbors, you LOVE God and neighbors.
Thanks! Can you LOVE God without feelings?
 
Thanks! Can you LOVE God without feelings?
Yes, we can love God without feelings. We can love with our will.

Feelings come and go…St. John of the Cross, Doctor of the Church on prayer, teaches about the prayer journey and what one goes through, (some more or less) as he advances on the spiritual journey to union with the Lord. (our goal).

He teaches about “the dark night of the soul”, when the Lord purifies us because we do not have feelings and are loving him in faith, in the dark night. (no consolations). That is how we grow in strength. Also, the Lord knows when to “let up” and consoles us when the time is right.
 
Yes, we can love God without feelings. We can love with our will.

Feelings come and go…St. John of the Cross, Doctor of the Church on prayer, teaches about the prayer journey and what one goes through, (some more or less) as he advances on the spiritual journey to union with the Lord. (our goal).

He teaches about “the dark night of the soul”, when the Lord purifies us because we do not have feelings and are loving him in faith, in the dark night. (no consolations). That is how we grow in strength. Also, the Lord knows when to “let up” and consoles us when the time is right.
I think our will to do something is quite different from our love for God (it be done out of fear of God). Does not all love involve inner experience?
 
I think our will to do something is quite different from our love for God (it be done out of fear of God). Does not all love involve inner experience?
We can love God without having good feelings. Such feelings are not always there and we cannot just turn them on. I can love God through my neighbor who irritates me, by doing favors for her. I can’t force good feelings, but I can do the right thing because it is what the good Lord wants me to do. And by so doing I can have His peace.

God tests our faith by not giving us consolations during prayer, or when we are doing good things for His glory. We do this because we love Him.

We don’t always experience good feelings, as they come and go unexpectedly. The Lord strengthens us spiritually when we do the right thing without consolations.

I hope I am explaining clearly.
 
We can love God without having good feelings. Such feelings are not always there and we cannot just turn them on. I can love God through my neighbor who irritates me, by doing favors for her. I can’t force good feelings, but I can do the right thing because it is what the good Lord wants me to do. And by so doing I can have His peace.

God tests our faith by not giving us consolations during prayer, or when we are doing good things for His glory. We do this because we love Him.

We don’t always experience good feelings, as they come and go unexpectedly. The Lord strengthens us spiritually when we do the right thing without consolations.

I hope I am explaining clearly.
Who said anything about “good feelings?” I’m saying that LOVE must have an experience attached to it, which may involve feelings.
 
+JMJ+
Thanks! Can you LOVE God without feelings?
Let me put it into this: How would a loved one think and feel if you have to take some substance to be able to love him/her? Let’s say, a girlfriend, or wife, or parent, or child?
 
+JMJ+
+JMJ+

Let me put it into this: How would a loved one think and feel if you have to take some substance to be able to love him/her? Let’s say, a girlfriend, or wife, or parent, or child?
I loathe to end this thread in such a negative tone so at the very least let me give some better parting words.

Simply put, one starts to love somebody by knowing that person. In the beginning, it just might be an academic knowing of that person, but even such knowledge can be of surprising power to one’s heart. For example, imagine you learning for the first time that you have a child, that he or she is of such age, lives with the partner you were with before, lives in such a place, etc.

However, the *experiential *knowledge of somebody is the kind of knowledge that truly leads to love. This is why “falling in love” is so powerful. You meet a person for the first time, and you are attracted to the physical beauty. And yet the more you interact with the person, the more you experience the person’s presence, that your love deepens, to the point that the physical attraction, although it still affects your heart, takes a progressively smaller role as you “fall in love” even more.

It is this knowledge that lets you transcend the feelings of love, so that you may still love a person even if you do not “feel” the love. For example, your teenage son was living irresponsibly, and he eventually gets into prison. You may not feel any feelings of “love” for this son of yours; in fact, what you feel are annoyance, anger, disgust, sadness, and the like. And yet, you still get up in the middle of the night, change your clothes, and bail him out of jail (with a sound thrashing of course after everything), because you know he is your son.

And this is so with loving God. You just do not generate “feelings” of love towards Him and your neighbor using substances or mental techniques or anything like that. “Contemplative prayer” that uses such is (sorry to be blunt) fake and even sinful.

To be able to love God, you must know Him. And the only way to know God is through Jesus Christ.

Philip said to Jesus, “Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied.”

Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?” (John 14:8-9)

Many who practice contemplation (whether they do it wrong or correctly) point to The Cloud of Unknowing as one of their foremost guides. However, most of these people do not even know that its anonymous author later wrote another book entitled The Book of Privy Counseling. It is a more advanced book than the Cloud, yet there is one passage there that should have been in the first book, because it tells you the steps to beginning contemplative prayer, and what false contemplative prayer is:

The interior life is a wonderful home for us because the Lord is not only the doorkeeper but also the door. His divinity makes him the doorkeeper, and his humanity makes him the door. He himself says this in the Gospel: “I am the door. Whoever enters by me will be saved. They will come in and go out and find pasture. Whoever does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in another way is a thief and a robber." (John 10:1,9).

In the context of our present discussion, our Lord is saying to us: “I, almighty God, am the doorkeeper, and my omnipotence gives me the right to let in anyone I want, any way I want, but I chose to clothe myself in the humanity common to everyone and become totally accessible, because I wanted to create a shared, obvious way, open to all, so no one could say, ‘But I didn’t know the way!’ Through my humanity, I am the door, and whoever comes in by me will be safe.”

To enter by the door, spend time meditating on the Passion of Christ, and feel sorry for the sins you’ve committed, which caused that very Passion. Blame yourself bitterly, because, though you deserved to suffer, you didn’t. And feel nothing but pity and compassion for our good Lord because he suffered terribly and deserved none of it. Then lift up your heart and focus on the love and goodness of his divinity. Be thankful that he would stoop so low for us, putting on our deadly humanity. Do this, and you’ll enter by the door and be safe. As you go in, meditating on the love and goodness of Christ’s divinity, and as you go out, remembering the suffering of his humanity, you’ll find what you need. This is the spiritual food of devotion. In fact, those who never go further than this early stage of prayer will still find sufficient, even abundant food, plenty enough to heal and save their souls.

But some refuse to enter by this door. They think that they can reach contemplative perfection their own way, and because they’re brilliant and clever, they let their minds run wild, indulging in sophisticated and false lines of questioning and rejecting the obvious, ordinary entrance we discussed earlier and the sound advice of their spiritual mentors. **Anyone doing this—and I do mean anyone, no matter who—is a burglar by night and a pickpocket by day. **They are like burglars because they walk about in the darkness of sin, banking on their own understanding, never consulting the wisdom of others nor trusting the universally open way described above. And they are like pickpockets because they pretend to be beyond suspicion and good, while secretly they lift the gestures and phrases of the contemplative, clandestinely picking their looks and words while having none of their fruit.

It clearly shows that contemplative prayer is reached by first knowing who God is through meditation of Christ’s life in the Gospels.
 
+JMJ+

Lastly, here is my suggestion to starting contemplation: use Lectio Divina on the Gospel reading for the day. Here is how I recommend it:
  1. Set a specific time and place for spiritual prayer. Ten minutes is a good length of time for beginners.
  2. Ready yourself by fasting for the intention of this prayer 15 minutes before the set time. As the Catechism says, fasting “help us acquire mastery over our instincts and freedom of heart (CCC 2043)”, which is required for praying (CCC 2562).
  3. Pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit, then read the Gospel reading for today. I use mobile.evangelizo.org/ on my smartphone for this, which is particularly helpful because there is an accompanying text that helps in shedding light on the reading.
  4. Try to understand the reading, which can be done (at least in my experience) in two ways. First is to imagine yourself to be there in the story. Either watch in your imagination the events unfolding like watching a movie, or interact with the events and people there. Second is to handle the reading like a problem or a riddle, where the answer is the message or messages God wants to tell you through what you read.
  5. Give a short prayer afterwards. Tell Jesus from your heart what you think of what you read, and especially how it is relevant to you and how it should affect you.
  6. Here is the meat of this exercise, the contemplation. After your short prayer, pray Philip’s words to Jesus: “Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied” (John 14:8). Then, (and here my words fail me) try to gaze at the Father as if you are looking at Him through the glasses of what you read. In my experience, at the beginning you will see only the goodness of Jesus’ acts, but later you will start to see something else beyond it, something not clear. This is the point of the whole exercise: knowing the Father through the life of Jesus Christ, that you may love Him.
  7. I strongly recommend, if you have no spiritual director, to end the exercise at strictly 10 minutes from start of the reading. If needed, use a timer with an alarm. You may then add five minutes to the whole exercise no less than every one month from when you started, and five minutes to the preliminary fast every two months, but no more than what is comfortable. This is to protect yourself from spiritual gluttony and pride. Of course, if you have a spiritual director and you want to try this exercise, present this to him/her and follow his/her instructions strictly. Nothing beats spiritual gluttony and pride better than obedience, and helps you most to know Jesus and hence the Father, because obedience to the Father is Jesus’ foremost trait.
 
Would that go for my drinking coffee too? Coffee seems to always make me more spiritual.
How on earth does coffee make you ‘more spiritual’… Sorry, you dont’ expect us to take you seriously…:nope:
 
+JMJ+

Let me put it into this: How would a loved one think and feel if you have to take some substance to be able to love him/her? Let’s say, a girlfriend, or wife, or parent, or child?
Who said that I need marijuana to LOVE God? I think you may be misquoting me.
 
+JMJ+
Who said that I need marijuana to LOVE God? I think you may be misquoting me.
My goodness, Robert…
In one word, LOVE! Smoking medical marijuana or drinking coffee usually results in feelings of LOVE, both towards God and my neighbors.
Who said anything about “good feelings?” I’m saying that LOVE must have an experience attached to it, which may involve feelings.
Thanks! Can you LOVE God without feelings?
 
+JMJ+

My goodness, Robert…
I do not see where I left you with the impression that I need coffee or marijuana in order to LOVE God. What you’re saying is simply untrue. I LOVE God and my neighbors when I’m not using coffee or marijuana.
 
+JMJ+
I do not see where I left you with the impression that I need coffee or marijuana in order to LOVE God. What you’re saying is simply untrue. I LOVE God and my neighbors when I’m not using coffee or marijuana.
You know what, whatever. I purposely left out commenting about marijuana in my posts per CAF policy because you did point out it is medical marijuana, that is, prescribed by a health professional.
(no comment on the medical marijuana)
To be honest what you are insinuating is scary. You say
Would that go for my drinking coffee too? Coffee seems to always make me more spiritual.
Which seems to say also gives you effects like marijuana, because you first said
Maybe I should not be revealing this, but I use medical marijuana and I find it very conducive to prayer and feeling of spiritual love. I try really hard not to indulge in worldly pleasure, and overall I keep improving, but pot is a lot like coffee to me. Both of them do something to my brain that causes me to be more spiritual.
and this seems to be confirmed by
In one word, LOVE! Smoking medical marijuana or drinking coffee usually results in feelings of LOVE, both towards God and my neighbors.
Then you deny that the feelings are “love” itself because you say
Who said anything about “good feelings?” I’m saying that LOVE must have an experience attached to it, which may involve feelings.
You also say
I think our will to do something is quite different from our love for God (it be done out of fear of God). Does not all love involve inner experience?
So what are we supposed to believe from your posts but that you need substances to “experience” God (aka “spirituality” to most people)?

And as I posted above, it is experiential knowledge that is most needed to be able to love somebody. Thus, you need substances to love “God”.

But the problem is, are you sure what you are experiencing is God?

As I said, Robert, whatever.
 
+JMJ+

You know what, whatever. I purposely left out commenting about marijuana in my posts per CAF policy because you did point out it is medical marijuana, that is, prescribed by a health professional.

To be honest what you are insinuating is scary. You say

Which seems to say also gives you effects like marijuana, because you first said

and this seems to be confirmed by

Then you deny that the feelings are “love” itself because you say

You also say

So what are we supposed to believe from your posts but that you need substances to “experience” God (aka “spirituality” to most people)?

And as I posted above, it is experiential knowledge that is most needed to be able to love somebody. Thus, you need substances to love “God”.

But the problem is, are you sure what you are experiencing is God?

As I said, Robert, whatever.
It’s obviously much easier to misunderstand somebody than to take the time to understand. In psychology, it’s known as perspective taking.
 
+JMJ+
It’s obviously much easier to misunderstand somebody than to take the time to understand. In psychology, it’s known as perspective taking.
Robert, instead of talking about platitudes why don’t you tell me where I got it wrong. All I have to understand what you are saying are from your posts. You then say I didn’t take the time to understand you when in fact I hunted down your answers in this thread and posted them one by one with my comments on them to show you how I came to this “misunderstanding” of what you are saying.

Robert, we are not talking face to face, we are talking through an Internet forum where we cannot see each other to see our nonverbal communication.
 
+JMJ+

Robert, instead of talking about platitudes why don’t you tell me where I got it wrong. All I have to understand what you are saying are from your posts. You then say I didn’t take the time to understand you when in fact I hunted down your answers in this thread and posted them one by one with my comments on them to show you how I came to this “misunderstanding” of what you are saying.

Robert, we are not talking face to face, we are talking through an Internet forum where we cannot see each other to see our nonverbal communication.
I’ll say it again then, “I do not need marijuana to experience LOVE!” (Both marijuana and coffee often promote my experience of love, however.)
 
I’ll say it again then, “I do not need marijuana to experience LOVE!” (Both marijuana and coffee often promote my experience of love, however.)
Sorry for the misunderstanding then. However, heightening the “experience of love”…

Love wants to experience the person being loved, not the act of loving itself. Sure loving feels good; joy after all is a fruit of love. But to love for the sake of experiencing love…it really is quite problematic. It is like the person who loves for the sake of the “honeymoon experience”.
 
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