I'm Gay, but I'm Not Switching to a Church That Supports Gay Marriage

[Rete]

You just keep repeating general statements about “failings” and “could have done more”. Those statements don’t mean anything. What specific failings? What more could the Pope possibly have done?

 

[CopticChristian]

You just keep repeating general statements about “failings” and “could have done more”. Those statements don’t mean anything. What specific failings? What more could the Pope possibly have done?

I truly believe that this is a great idea…and I would ask to tie this into the following…

How does this information relate to…

***I’m Gay, but I’m Not Switching to a Church That Supports Gay Marriage ***



Here is a thought…

How did church groups that supported Gay Marriage perform during the Holocaust?:ehh:

Was Gay Marriage an issue at the time of the Holocaust?

That may provide some ability to tie this into the OP…

 

[gracepoole]

You just keep repeating general statements about “failings” and “could have done more”. Those statements don’t mean anything. What specific failings? What more could the Pope possibly have done?

No, I don’t. I’d love to offer specific lists for you, but as I said earlier…

I could say much, much more – but I’m genuinely worried that we’re veering away from the point of this post. Is my worry justified?

And now here we are being taken to task by CopticChristian for getting off topic.

I truly believe that this is a great idea…and I would ask to tie this into the following…

How does this information relate to…

***I’m Gay, but I’m Not Switching to a Church That Supports Gay Marriage ***



Here is a thought…

How did church groups that supported Gay Marriage perform during the Holocaust?:ehh:

Was Gay Marriage an issue at the time of the Holocaust?

That may provide some ability to tie this into the OP…

So… I’ll send you back to the same site I offered earlier.

Rete, although I spoke about a site’s list of sources, I do also recommend its snapshot overview of Pius’ failings.

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html

If I cut and pasted its contents to respond to your charge that I’m not offering specifics, imagine how far we’d be off topic then.

 

[CarolNoel]

Well Gracie, why did you bring it up if you didn’t want to discuss it? My Jewish friends appreciate very much what our Church did for them during WW2.

 

[gracepoole]

Well Gracie, why did you bring it up if you didn’t want to discuss it? My Jewish friends appreciate very much what our Church did for them during WW2.

Grrrrr! I didn’t bring it up! How about reading through the entire thread before commenting?

 

[NHeath]

I applaud the author of the article for his efforts to live out his life in a celibate manner. The burden of being a homosexual is a hard one to bear. It can only be borne with the help of God and a willing spirit to do what is right in the eyes of God.

I quote from the article; “The Church needs to grow and change in response to societal changes.”

The Church does not need to “grow and change in response to societal changes.” If that were true then the Church in the Nazi era would have gone along with the changes the Nazi’s made to their church, the Nazi brought change to society and wanted the Church to change as well. The Catholic Church said; “No.”

In modern time abortion, the killing of children in the womb has become lawful in the United States and in many other countries, should the Church change her policy just because society feels that it is right to allow women to choose to kill babies? I think not. Also, several states now allow physician assisted suicide, we of course need to change our beliefs to accept that as well, right? I think not.

The Catholic Church today stands for truth just as she did in years past. She is counter culture. She is a beacon that shows the way that God wants us to live. The Church welcomes homosexuals because being a homosexual is not in itself sinful. The acts that accompany it are sinful.

I do not wish to offend anyone, but I have to stick up for the truth. The Church is not a democracy, it is a kingdom. Gods Law is not subject to recall based on the tenor of the times. Truth is Truth no matter if it is believed or not.

Amen

 

[westNwewaxation]

The Church needs to grow and change in response to societal changes…

Does she mean redefine marriage? or allow homosexual sex?

 

[MaryT777]

Scroll to the bottom of this site for a list of outstanding sources: jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html

I do believe that the Vatican and Pius XII were in an awful position. And I believe that if diplomacy had been of any use at that time, Pius could have done more. But viewing bystanders from a contemporary lens and washing away their choices is immoral in itself. I could say much, much more – but I’m genuinely worried that we’re veering away from the point of this post. Is my worry justified?

OK thanks; yes it’s off topic I agree.
Mary.

 

[MaryT777]

Interesting article on a complex topic.
theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/13/05/im-gay-but-im-not-switching-to-a-church-that-supports-gay-marriage/276383/

That was an extremely well written and interesting artice.
Thanks for posting it.

 

[quiet52]

The author makes a good effort to show her commitment to the Eucharist, to living a Catholic life, and to explaining her stance against gay marriage (that she is “trying to live in accordance with the historical Christian teaching on chastity, including its prohibition on sex between men or between women.”)

I wish she would have mentioned what God’s plan for marriage and sex is, and why she is not called to be married, but I am thinking that because she wrote for the secular media, she might have been instructed to keep it personal and keep theology out of it.

The Church needs to grow and change in response to societal changes. We can do so much better in serving the needs of gay/queer/same-sex attracted Catholics, especially the next generation. But I think gay Catholics can also offer a necessary witness to the broader society. By leading lives of fruitful, creative love, we can offer proof that sexual restraint isn’t a death sentence (or an especially boring form of masochism). Celibacy can offer some of us radical freedom to serve others.

I think the first sentence quoted above can be misunderstood to mean that the Church needs to change her teachings. I don’t think that’s what the author is saying. It seems to me she would like the Church to respond differently to the culture, especially to better address the issues and to better help individuals who suffer from SSA to lead chaste lives.

Her comment about a lifetyle of “fruitful, creative love” is very positive – alluding to a parallel of marital love which the unmarried can offer.

 

[quiet52]

Um, might want to review the Vatican’s failings during the Holocaust…

There’s plenty that can be read on the subject – a quick trip through Amazon and Google should open up plenty of doorways. But** if the Vatican had no blame in the Holocaust, why would it have apologized for its lack of response back in 1998?**

I applaud those Catholics who resisted the Nazis! There were indeed many of them and they are all righteous individuals. But the Vatican itself could have done much, much more. This isn’t the point of this thread - but Catholics should be wary of dropping the Holocaust into conversation as a case-in-point if research hasn’t been done into what the Vatican *failed *to do during this period.

Scroll to the bottom of this site for a list of outstanding sources: jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html

I do believe that the Vatican and Pius XII were in an awful position. **And I believe that if diplomacy had been of any use at that time, Pius could have done more. ** But viewing bystanders from a contemporary lens and washing away their choices is immoral in itself. I could say much, much more – but I’m genuinely worried that we’re veering away from the point of this post. Is my worry justified?

“gracepoole” I do not understand why you believe your negative and uninformed opinions about the Church’s involvement in the Nazi’s Holocaust are relevant to the thread.

“mike52ad” had a reference to the Church not changing during the Nazi persecution in spite of the pressure to do so, and your initial and subsequent comments don’t logically follow.

It is obvious to me that you have bought into the claptrap – the slander against the Church – propagated by anti-Catholics, the secular media, and revisionist historians.

First of all, in 1998 the Catholic Church did not apologize for her “lack of response” to the Holocaust (talk about anti-Catholic spin!). She issued a document, ''We Remember: A Reflection on the Shoah," in which she condemned Nazi genocide. And she asked all Catholics to offer repentence on behalf of Catholics who did nothing to stop the genocide (not the entire “Church” as you claim). Again, the Church did not accept “blame” as a Church. The Church cannot be responsible for all the acts of individual Catholics. The Church was a target of the persecution. Catholics in many Catholics, lay and clergy, did MUCH to fight against the genocide.

The articles you posted distort historical truth and do not present an accurate picture of what the Catholic Church was experiencing in that era of history. You do not understand all that Pope Pius XI and Pope Pius XII did, or the reasons they could not do more than they did. I am posting a few links to help you to become better educated.

Catholic martyrs of the Holocaust
catholiceducation.org/articles/persecution/pch0229.htm
. . . . . The Nazi persecution of the Catholic Church in Germany began in 1933, several years before the persecution of the Polish people, the Jews, and others began.

Nazi policy and the Catholic Church
catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0033.html
. . . . . Though the scale of Christian persecution cannot be compared to the Jewish Holocaust of 1941-1945, except perhaps in Poland, the ultimate destruction of Christianity was one of the Nazis long-term aims. From his early years of political dreaming, from within the pages of Mein Kampf to the Table Talk Hitler himself made his contempt for the ‘slave’ ideology of Christianity and its Jewish roots perfectly clear. . . . .

Poland - Hitler’s first target for annihilation during the Holocaust
holocaustforgotten.com/poland.htm
. . . . . Polish Christians and Catholics were actually the first victims of the notorious German death camp. For the first 21 months after it began in 1940, Auschwitz was inhabited almost exclusively by Polish non-Jews. The first ethnic Pole died in June 1940 and the first Jew died in October 1942. . . . .

The Gentile Holocaust
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=472

Did Pius XII remain silent?
ewtn.com/library/answers/piusjews.htm
. . . . .The persecution was even more intense for the Catholic Church. Gestapo agents attended Mass and listened to every homily preached, prepared to arrest any priest attacking or criticizing the regime. Chanceries were searched for any “incriminating” documents. Communication with Rome was limited. Nazi propaganda represented the Church as unpatriotic and hoarding wealth with clerics portrayed as idle and avaricious. By 1940, all Catholic schools had been closed, and religious instruction confined to the Church itself or at home. Meanwhile, anti-Christian teaching was imparted in the public schools.
Please note that the first concentration camp was established in 1933 at Dachau, outside of Munich; this camp was not .so much an “extermination camp” as one for the political prisoners, including priests. At Dachau alone, 2,700 priests were imprisoned (of which 1,000 died). . . . .

Who were the non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust?
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/NonJewishVictims.html

A Special Mission: Hitler’s Secret Plot to Seize the Vatican and Kidnap Pope Pius XII (a book review)
newoxfordreview.org/reviews.jsp?did=0508-bemis

 

[gracepoole]

“gracepoole” I do not understand why you believe your negative and uninformed opinions about the Church’s involvement in the Nazi’s Holocaust are relevant to the thread.

“mike52ad” had a reference to the Church not changing during the Nazi persecution in spite of the pressure to do so, and your initial and subsequent comments don’t logically follow.

It is obvious to me that you have bought into the claptrap – the slander against the Church – propagated by anti-Catholics, the secular media, and revisionist historians.

First of all, in 1998 the Catholic Church did not apologize for her “lack of response” to the Holocaust (talk about anti-Catholic spin!). She issued a document, ''We Remember: A Reflection on the Shoah," in which she condemned Nazi genocide. And she asked all Catholics to offer repentence on behalf of Catholics who did nothing to stop the genocide (not the entire “Church” as you claim). Again, the Church did not accept “blame” as a Church. The Church cannot be responsible for all the acts of individual Catholics. The Church was a target of the persecution. Catholics in many Catholics, lay and clergy, did MUCH to fight against the genocide.

The articles you posted distort historical truth and do not present an accurate picture of what the Catholic Church was experiencing in that era of history. You do not understand all that Pope Pius XI and Pope Pius XII did, or the reasons they could not do more than they did. I am posting a few links to help you to become better educated.

Catholic martyrs of the Holocaust
catholiceducation.org/articles/persecution/pch0229.htm
. . . . . The Nazi persecution of the Catholic Church in Germany began in 1933, several years before the persecution of the Polish people, the Jews, and others began.

Nazi policy and the Catholic Church
catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0033.html
. . . . . Though the scale of Christian persecution cannot be compared to the Jewish Holocaust of 1941-1945, except perhaps in Poland, the ultimate destruction of Christianity was one of the Nazis long-term aims. From his early years of political dreaming, from within the pages of Mein Kampf to the Table Talk Hitler himself made his contempt for the ‘slave’ ideology of Christianity and its Jewish roots perfectly clear. . . . .

Poland - Hitler’s first target for annihilation during the Holocaust
holocaustforgotten.com/poland.htm
. . . . . Polish Christians and Catholics were actually the first victims of the notorious German death camp. For the first 21 months after it began in 1940, Auschwitz was inhabited almost exclusively by Polish non-Jews. The first ethnic Pole died in June 1940 and the first Jew died in October 1942. . . . .

The Gentile Holocaust
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=472

Did Pius XII remain silent?
ewtn.com/library/answers/piusjews.htm
. . . . .The persecution was even more intense for the Catholic Church. Gestapo agents attended Mass and listened to every homily preached, prepared to arrest any priest attacking or criticizing the regime. Chanceries were searched for any “incriminating” documents. Communication with Rome was limited. Nazi propaganda represented the Church as unpatriotic and hoarding wealth with clerics portrayed as idle and avaricious. By 1940, all Catholic schools had been closed, and religious instruction confined to the Church itself or at home. Meanwhile, anti-Christian teaching was imparted in the public schools.
Please note that the first concentration camp was established in 1933 at Dachau, outside of Munich; this camp was not .so much an “extermination camp” as one for the political prisoners, including priests. At Dachau alone, 2,700 priests were imprisoned (of which 1,000 died). . . . .

Who were the non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust?
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/NonJewishVictims.html

A Special Mission: Hitler’s Secret Plot to Seize the Vatican and Kidnap Pope Pius XII (a book review)
newoxfordreview.org/reviews.jsp?did=0508-bemis

I’m actually starting to find this frightening. Please, please: go back and read the thread. I didn’t bring up this subject and I didn’t simply slander my own Church. I’m kind of stymied here – if folks don’t actually read the full thread, it seems I’m destined to repeat the same thing over and over again.

 

[gracepoole]

Quiet52 (or anyone else, for that matter), feel free to send me a private message re: the Holocaust and the Vatican. (Know in advance that I haven’t just “read” on this subject, however – it’s a major portion of my career. Calling my comments “claptrap,” then, is akin to questioning the expert scholars with whom I’ve studied – and you’re going to need plenty of credible evidence to make such a charge stick. This isn’t just a hobby for me or fodder for forum discussion.) As I’ve said repeatedly now, the Holocaust isn’t the point of this thread. (And please, before someone freaks and says, “Then why bring it up?!” reread all of my comments here.)

 

[CopticChristian]

Quiet52 (or anyone else, for that matter), feel free to send me a private message re: the Holocaust and the Vatican. (Know in advance that I haven’t just “read” on this subject, however – it’s a major portion of my career. Calling my comments “claptrap,” then, is akin to questioning the expert scholars with whom I’ve studied – and you’re going to need plenty of credible evidence to make such a charge stick. This isn’t just a hobby for me or fodder for forum discussion.) As I’ve said repeatedly now, the Holocaust isn’t the point of this thread. (And please, before someone freaks and says, “Then why bring it up?!” reread all of my comments here.)

Poole,

Your frustration may be born out of your not seeing what you have posted as argumentative and suggesting other than “you did not bring it up”…I reviewed the posts as you asked and here is what I see…

Um, might want to review the Vatican’s failings during the Holocaust…

Someone mentions the Nazi’s and you mention holocaust in a negative way as it concerns the Church. If you did not want this to be the topic, you could have said early on…

***Study of the Holocaust is a major portion of my career. I have studied with Scholars – This isn’t just a hobby for me or fodder for forum discussion.) The Holocaust isn’t the point of this thread. ***

Your next point was this…

There’s plenty that can be read on the subject – a quick trip through Amazon and Google should open up plenty of doorways. But if the Vatican had no blame in the Holocaust, why would it have apologized for its lack of response back in 1998?

I would have no idea from reading this that you have studied this. Referring someone to Google or Amazon suggests that this is where you get your information from and I too would be suspect of your knowledge.

I applaud those Catholics who resisted the Nazis! There were indeed many of them and they are all righteous individuals. But the Vatican itself could have done much, much more. This isn’t the point of this thread - but Catholics should be wary of dropping the Holocaust into conversation as a case-in-point if research hasn’t been done into what the Vatican failed to do during this period.

You posted the above and could have left out one sentence and more likely than not the topic would have been dropped…if you had posted as follows:

I applaud those Catholics who resisted the Nazis! There were indeed many of them and they are all righteous individuals. The Holocaust isn’t the point of this thread - I would imagine a discussion on this could be made the point of a seperate thread.

and then you subject a challenge to the topic…

(Know in advance that I haven’t just “read” on this subject, however – it’s a major portion of my career. Calling my comments “claptrap,” then, is akin to questioning the expert scholars with whom I’ve studied – and you’re going to need plenty of credible evidence to make such a charge stick. This isn’t just a hobby for me or fodder for forum discussion.) As I’ve said repeatedly now, the Holocaust isn’t the point of this thread. (And please, before someone freaks and says, “Then why bring it up?!” reread all of my comments here.)]

I believe that you do not see your own bias in the understanding of the word Holocaust and Catholic Church. If you want to start a thread on this then do so. Your understanding of the Holocaust, however you came by it and your understanding of the Catholic Church at the time of the Holocaust may be interesting and a point of discussion elsewhere.

I suggest you reflect on your continued insistence that there was something that needed clarification that did not serve the OP, rather your own desire to profess a difference of opinion. You should be able to do so, however not here.

 

[gracepoole]

Are you a Holocaust scholar?

its pretty obvious who isn’t

How to say this gently…

Wrong.

This wasn’t enough for you, CopticChristian?

Poole,

Your frustration may be born out of your not seeing what you have posted as argumentative and suggesting other than “you did not bring it up”…I reviewed the posts as you asked and here is what I see…

Someone mentions the Nazi’s and you mention holocaust in a negative way as it concerns the Church. If you did not want this to be the topic, you could have said early on…

Your next point was this…

I would have no idea from reading this that you have studied this. Referring someone to Google or Amazon suggests that this is where you get your information from and I too would be suspect of your knowledge.

You posted the above and could have left out one sentence and more likely than not the topic would have been dropped…if you had posted as follows:

and then you subject a challenge to the topic…

]

I believe that you do not see your own bias in the understanding of the word Holocaust and Catholic Church. If you want to start a thread on this then do so. Your understanding of the Holocaust, however you came by it and your understanding of the Catholic Church at the time of the Holocaust may be interesting and a point of discussion elsewhere.

I suggest you reflect on your continued insistence that there was something that needed clarification that did not serve the OP, rather your own desire to profess a difference of opinion. You should be able to do so, however not here.

Let me get this straight – someone else brings up the subject of the Holocaust and I point out that it’s probably not the wisest example in terms of this thread’s topic. I also repeatedly remind folks that we’re off topic. YOU complain that we’re off topic. And now I’m biased and you’re *continuing *the off-topic conversation? Color me totally confused.

 

[CopticChristian]

This wasn’t enough for you, CopticChristian?

Let me get this straight – someone else brings up the subject of the Holocaust and I point out that it’s probably not the wisest example in terms of this thread’s topic. I also repeatedly remind folks that we’re off topic. YOU complain that we’re off topic. And now I’m biased and you’re *continuing *the off-topic conversation? Color me totally confused.

Poole,

You clearly have a desire to discuss this topic. A better response would have been…

The holocaust is not a relevant topic for this thread, knowing I have some expertise, and perhaps should be directed at this thread that I started here…

GracePoole thoughts on the Holocaust in Scholarship…

Thoughts…

Were there any churches at the time of the holocaust that supported Gay marriage?

 

[gracepoole]

Poole,

You clearly have a desire to discuss this topic. A better response would have been…

The holocaust is not a relevant topic for this thread, knowing I have some expertise, and perhaps should be directed at this thread that I started here…

Were there any churches at the time of the holocaust that supported Gay marriage?

Good grief! Seriously? It has to be this complicated to refute the introduction of an irrelevant topic that’s being misread? If we were all in a classroom right now, I’d dismiss the class and consider the conversation a loss.

 

[CopticChristian]

Good grief! Seriously? It has to be this complicated to refute the introduction of an irrelevant topic that’s being misread? If we were all in a classroom right now, I’d dismiss the class and consider the conversation a loss.

Poole,

I suggest you sit and reflect a little and what it is you want to say…

I’m actually starting to find this frightening.

Here you express concern over the topic being discussed beyond what you thought it might be discussed or concerns over your suggesting discrepancy in the Holocaust and the Church.

I pointed out what I thought was of concern, honored your knowledge, and formulated a solution…

I even posed a question for you to get back on topic that could have dismissed the entire topic…look what you chose to do…

***Were there any churches at the time of the holocaust that supported Gay marriage? ***

Good grief! Seriously? It has to be this complicated to refute the introduction of an irrelevant topic that’s being misread? If we were all in a classroom right now, I’d dismiss the class and consider the conversation a loss

Rather than just answering the question, that I believe you saw you do this…

**Good grief. ** You are frustrated. This is frustration of your own making. No one can frustrate you but you.

**It has to be this complicated to refute the introduction of an irrelevant topic that’s being misread? **You chose to complicate the discussion by continuing to discuss it. Refute? Is this thread about refuting? You admit it is an irrelevant topic that is being misread and rather than just say…

this is an irrelevant topic that is being misread, let us just drop it…you don’t do that…and you could…

**If we were all in a classroom right now, I’d dismiss the class and consider the conversation a loss **. I believe you have a high opinion of your knowledge on this topic that led you to use this metaphor. We are not in a classroom. You are not schooling anyone. You have the ability to dismiss yourself and you choose not to do it. You may want to reflect on this. You may want to reflect on what you call a conversation on the one hand and the belief that you have knowledge that would be classroom worthy that you can admit or dismiss.

You may have that ability. Start another thread.

**Were there any churches at the time of the holocaust that supported Gay marriage? **

 

[gracepoole]

Poole,

I suggest you sit and reflect a little and what it is you want to say…

Here you express concern over the topic being discussed beyond what you thought it might be discussed or concerns over your suggesting discrepancy in the Holocaust and the Church.

I pointed out what I thought was of concern, honored your knowledge, and formulated a solution…

I even posed a question for you to get back on topic that could have dismissed the entire topic…look what you chose to do…

Rather than just answering the question, that I believe you saw you do this…

**Good grief. ** You are frustrated. This is frustration of your own making. No one can frustrate you but you.

**It has to be this complicated to refute the introduction of an irrelevant topic that’s being misread? **You chose to complicate the discussion by continuing to discuss it. Refute? Is this thread about refuting? You admit it is an irrelevant topic that is being misread and rather than just say…

this is an irrelevant topic that is being misread, let us just drop it…you don’t do that…and you could…

**If we were all in a classroom right now, I’d dismiss the class and consider the conversation a loss **. I believe you have a high opinion of your knowledge on this topic that led you to use this metaphor. We are not in a classroom. You are not schooling anyone. You have the ability to dismiss yourself and you choose not to do it. You may want to reflect on this. You may want to reflect on what you call a conversation on the one hand and the belief that you have knowledge that would be classroom worthy that you can admit or dismiss.

You may have that ability. Start another thread.

**Were there any churches at the time of the holocaust that supported Gay marriage? **

Coptic, have you asked yourself why you keep persisting in this conversation when you initially complained that it isn’t relevant to the thread’s topic? I’m happy to acknowledge that I’m frustrated here. This is what comes to mind regarding this “discussion”:

youtube.com/watch?v=airT-m9LcoY

 

[Rete]

The problem is that you hit a raw nerve. We are daily confronted with irrational and unsubstantiated accusations that our Church was somehow complicit in the Holocaust. It’s untrue and dishonest on the part of those who concocted the lie.

I see a lot of well-meaning Catholics get caught up in these calumnies, thinking they are based on reality when that is not the case. Similar calumnies are perpetrated by the pro-abortion crowd regarding alleged Church support for abortion when that was never the case.

Catholics hear this nonsense on the television, radio, and from friends and coworkers, and they just assume it must all be true.

It’s not.