I'm getting tired of hearing from Protestants that we worship Mary and the saints!

[justasking4]

Who’s truth? That is the problem with private interpretation. You cannot be sure who is interpreting according to the Holy Spirits intention. That is why Jesus wouldn’t have left us without a sure infallible source. It is only your interpretation that says it goes against Scripture and when you are shown it doesn’t you disregard it.

Where has this infallible source interpreted the Scriptures infallibly?

 

[Leeann]

JeanneFrancoise:
I realise that it must be difficult for you to begin to understand the love we have for Mother Mary. We have a devotion to the Holy Family - Jesus, Mary and Joseph. We believe that Mary is our Mother as is Jesus our brother and we love Joseph as a great model of a Father.

Well of course that does explains a lot.

I believe Mary is Jesus’ mother and think of her with a great deal of fondness and admiration so much so that one of my daughters is named after her….I believe that Jesus is my Redeemer, Lord and Savior, my Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace and the best friend I’ve ever had…as for Joseph, in all honesty, as a great model of a father, there is little reference given to us as to any extra-ordinary attributes that he contributed in this capacity….so while I do think about him I can’t see him as a “great model of a Father.”

We do not worship Mary. Look how she dealt with Jesus at the Wedding at Cana. “Do as he tells you”.

As to how she “dealt with Jesus” at the wedding at Cana…???
How did she “deal” with Him???

No Mary was special. Don’t forget she is also the Mother of God.

But more importantly…HE* is *God.

Peace and God Bless

 

[RobHom]

.
I’m certainly glad to see that you are sticking to your statements posted previously, about not making any “assumptions” or “judgements” as to what someone else may be thinking or doing. In all honesty I got to about the 30th chapter when I was interrupted by one of my daughters with an msn message…I have about 12 chapters left. Your last comment also displays a lack of that “ambivalence” you described yourself of usually having when in these threads. (An aside here: I don’t think you really meant to use the word “ambivalent”…I got carried away a bit while researching the words “attributed” and “Pseudo” and looked up “ambivalent” too, just to see how you regarded yourself…)

The Free Dictionary (online)

Adj. 1. **ambivalent **- uncertain or unable to decide about what course to follow; “was ambivalent about having children” - incertain, uncertain, unsure - lacking or indicating lack of confidence or assurance; “uncertain of his convictions”; “unsure of himself and his future”; “moving with uncertain (or unsure) steps”; “an uncertain smile”; “touched the ornaments with uncertain fingers”

I don’t see you like that at all, just for the record.

Peace and God Bless

For what its worth… in the terms of “ambivalence”… maybe thats not the most accurate word…but while I suffer no unsureness or lack of confidence…which apparently you are intuitive enough to discern that… I am simply one who is not overly concerned about many things. I am very comfortable with who I am and what I am… and I don’t get very worried or excited about much…

Peace and God Bless you also!!

 

[RNRobert]

W

As to how she “dealt with Jesus” at the wedding at Cana…???
How did she “deal” with Him???

When Mary told Jesus, “they have no wine,” Jesus told her “my hour is not yet come,” yet he still performed the miracle. Just a good Jewish boy obeying his mama! :thumbsup:

 

[LilyM]

When Mary told Jesus, “they have no wine,” Jesus told her “my hour is not yet come,” yet he still performed the miracle. Just a good Jewish boy obeying his mama! :thumbsup:

Exactly - it’s as if those who deny Mary’s role see her mentioning that they had no wine and His performing the miracle as two entirely distinct and unrelated events - as if she didn’t, as my mother often does, mention this sort of lack or need PRECISELY because she wanted Him (as my mother wants me when she mentions it to me) to do something about it!

‘What has this to do with you and me?’ was his response. If Mary was mentioning it just as an idle thought in passing and not a request for action, surely it would be ‘what has this to do with you?’

By making it ‘you AND me’ Jesus makes it clear that Mary’s concerns are His too. And her request to the servants to ‘do’, made it clear that she was certain He WOULD do something - give the servants some sort of task - and that He wouldn’t refuse what was obviously understood by both of them as a request for help, which of course He grants.

 

[Leeann]

When Mary told Jesus, “they have no wine,” Jesus told her “my hour is not yet come,” yet he still performed the miracle. Just a good Jewish boy obeying his mama! :thumbsup:

Yes…I’ve actually responded to this just a few days ago (I’ll repost it here):
**
John 1:V3 – 5 (Douay Rheims online)**

3 And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine.
4 And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? My hour is not yet come.
5 His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.

While Catholics refer to the importance of Mary’s contribution in relation to Jesus’ first miracle….it is interesting to note that her request was a very “human” one – a very “motherly” one as it fulfilled the need of saving face for the host at a wedding banquet. To the average onlooker, how much more indicative would it have been of the holiness and abundance of grace she is supposed to have had at that time - if her request for this first miracle had been that of a perhaps a seemingly more purposeful one – that of healing a blind or crippled person perhaps… however, IMHO, the “setting” of the wedding feast and the miracle of changing the water into wine by Jesus has a symbolic meaning, as one commentary indicates:

“The water pots were provided for Jewish rituals of purification, such as the washing of hands before meals. The master of the feast was the one in charge of providing food and drink. The joyful good wine of the gospel has replaced the water of Jewish legalism.”
Gene Miller, M.Div.,Ph.D, Assoc Prof of NT – Anderson School ofTheologyAffiliated with CTT (Christian Churches Together) a ecumenical group of which the Catholic church is a member.

The main reason, for the mentioning of this first miracle, is not to draw attention to Mary or her ability of being able to get her son to do things for her because of her relationship to Him ….but to establish “the beginning of signs” – as stated further on in the chapter :

11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee; and manifested his glory, and his disciples believed in him.

Nevertheless….I do love how her understanding and faith had grown more by the time of this wedding and is evident in her expectancy of knowing that her son was able to do something about the situation at hand. I don’t believe that she herself knew of the “symbolic” meaning that could be drawn from this event ….but I do believe that Jesus was aware of it and that is why He complied to this request. In this respect, I can truly say that I can and always have identified with Mary and her love for her son and her understanding that she had of His capabilities at that moment in time. Mary’s humanness, if anything makes me respect and identify with her.

I just didn’t understand what was meant by how she “dealt” with Him? (as posted by Jeanne Francoise)… as if this translates into Mary “still having to deal with Him” in some way in order for our prayers to be answered. He is so approachable and available directly to each and everyone of us, if we “consecrate” ourselves wholey to Him and abide in obedience and faith.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut!

Peace and God Bless

 

[Leeann]

For what its worth… in the terms of “ambivalence”… maybe thats not the most accurate word…but while I suffer no unsureness or lack of confidence…which apparently you are intuitive enough to discern that… I am simply one who is not overly concerned about many things. I am very comfortable with who I am and what I am… and I don’t get very worried or excited about much…

Peace and God Bless you also!!

I understand what you mean…I feel the same, however I occasionally “arc up” and the “gloves come off” as they say…but I’m working on it.
And you have been praying about this I think, because your reply is indeed, truly gracious…as opposed to my not so nice postings at times.
Thank you for your blessing

 

[Mike_Cooksey]

If you are praying directly to Jesus, as we are told to do, why would you want to pray to some dead guy?

Did you ever think about Jesus also being a “dead” guy? He has his body in heaven but he died here. The saints also died here and except for Christs mother Mary have their physical remains here… but they are alive with him in heaven. The point is that any “dead guy” has a spirit that winds up in heaven or the fire zone. The guy is NOT dead. He is living in the condition he chose. So for those we KNOW are in heaven (Saints) they form normal community and are a part of our church ‘triumphant’. In this sense then if you are humble enough to solicit the prayers of others in the body, then it is natural to also solicit the prayers of someone who has made it.

 

[Gardenman]

In keeping with the original intent of this thread, here’s one thing I’ve NEVER been able to understand about Protestants:

Since so many of them claim that we “worship” Mary and the Saints, WHY do Protestants have so many of their OWN churches NAMED AFTER SAINTS ???

IF they are so “against” saintly devotion and/or recognition, then this seems totally contradictory to me.

On one hand they tell US not to worship or venerate saints, then on the other they name THEIR churches after a saint.

Someone enlighten me on this, please !

 

[Cinette]

What does that have to do with the prayers that I posted, the consecration of a person’s whole being to Mary instead of to Jesus…this isn’t “mediation” if that’s what you’re implying…it’s giving oneself wholey and completely to another person.

Hi Leeann -

You do not understand our devotion to Mother Mary who always points us to Jesus. We consecrate ourselves to Jesus and Mary as members of the Holy Family.

You obviously do not understand our ways.

 

[Leeann]

Hi Leeann -

You do not understand our devotion to Mother Mary who always points us to Jesus. We consecrate ourselves to Jesus and Mary as members of the Holy Family.

You obviously do not understand our ways.

As indicated in the prayer that I originally posted (I’ve re-posted it, as the “quote” clip you posted from me refers to it )…in this particular prayer “to” Mary….it is an act of consecration to her alone, wholly and completely…and as I’ve questioned before, if you’re already consecrated to Jesus, why or how would you do this again…to someone else?

Act of Oblation to the Blessed Virgin Mary

My Queen! my Mother!
I give thee all myself, and,
to show my devotion to thee,
I consecrate to thee my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart, my entire self.
Wherefore, O loving Mother,
as I am thine own,
keep me, defend me,
as thy property and possession.
Amen.

As you can see post #302 JeanneFrancoise explained the Catholic familial devotion to the Holy Family to me. My reply indicates that I understand……I simply don’t agree.

 

[Mannyfit75]

As indicated in the prayer that I originally posted (I’ve re-posted it, as the “quote” clip you posted from me refers to it )…in this particular prayer “to” Mary….it is an act of consecration to her alone, wholly and completely…and as I’ve questioned before, if you’re already consecrated to Jesus, why or how would you do this again…to someone else?

Act of Oblation to the Blessed Virgin Mary

My Queen! my Mother!
I give thee all myself, and,
to show my devotion to thee,
I consecrate to thee my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart, my entire self.
Wherefore, O loving Mother,
as I am thine own,
keep me, defend me,
as thy property and possession.
Amen.

As you can see post #302 JeanneFrancoise explained the Catholic familial devotion to the Holy Family to me. My reply indicates that I understand……I simply don’t agree.

That is no different than a husband making the same poetic veneration to his own wife.

That is no different that the praises women in the OT.

In the liturgical readings of masses in honor of Mary, the blessing of Judith is similar to the angelic salutation of Luke: “Blessed are you, daughter, by the Most High God, above all the women on earth” (Jdt 13:18). Frequently in song and response the praise of Judith is celebrated also in Mary: “You are the glory of Jerusalem, the surpassing joy of Israel; You are the splendid boast of our people” (Jdt 15:9), and finally from her own hymn (Jdt 16:13-14):

“O Lord, great are you and glorious, wonderful in power and unsurpassable. Let your every creature serve you; for you spoke, and they were made, You sent forth your spirit, and they were created; no one can resist your word.”

 

[Leeann]

Hi Mannyfit75

**Act of Oblation to the Blessed Virgin Mary

My Queen! my Mother!
I give thee all myself, and,
to show my devotion to thee,
I consecrate to thee my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart, my entire self.
Wherefore, O loving Mother,
as I am thine own,
keep me, defend me,
as thy property and possession.Amen.**

That is no different than a husband making the same poetic veneration to his own wife.

Really?
How about this:

Act of Consecration to Jesus

**Lord Jesus Christ, I consecrate myself today anew and without reserve to your divine Heart. I consecrate to you my body with all its senses, my soul with all its faculties, my entire being. I consecrate to you all my thoughts, words and deeds, all my sufferings and labors, all my hopes, consolations and joys. In particular I consecrate to you this poor heart of mine so that it may love only you and may be consumed as a victim in the fire of your love.

**I place my trust in you without reserve **and I hope for the remission of my sins through your infinite mercy. I place within your hands all my cares and anxieties. I promise to love you and to honor you till the last moment of my life, and to spread, as much as I can, devotion to your most Sacred Heart.
Do with me what you will, my Jesus. I deserve no other reward except your greater glory and your holy love. Take this offering of myself and give me a place within your divine Heart forever. Amen. **

Who has “all” of them? Or do they “both” have “all” of them -???- is not Jesus able to do all that is asked?

That is no different that the praises women in the OT.

In the liturgical readings of masses in honor of Mary, the blessing of Judith is similar to the angelic salutation of Luke: “Blessed are you, daughter, by the Most High God, above all the women on earth” (Jdt 13:18). Frequently in song and response the praise of Judith is celebrated also in Mary: “You are the glory of Jerusalem, the surpassing joy of Israel; You are the splendid boast of our people” (Jdt 15:9), and finally from her own hymn (Jdt 16:13-14):

“O Lord, great are you and glorious, wonderful in power and unsurpassable. Let your every creature serve you; for you spoke, and they were made, You sent forth your spirit, and they were created; no one can resist your word.”

Yes…Judith…a woman…just like Mary…and she is also told that she is Blessed and higher than all women on earth and will be remembered always…

 

[Cinette]

As indicated in the prayer that I originally posted (I’ve re-posted it, as the “quote” clip you posted from me refers to it )…in this particular prayer “to” Mary….it is an act of consecration to her alone, wholly and completely…and as I’ve questioned before, if you’re already consecrated to Jesus, why or how would you do this again…to someone else?

Act of Oblation to the Blessed Virgin Mary

My Queen! my Mother!
I give thee all myself, and,
to show my devotion to thee,
I consecrate to thee my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart, my entire self.
Wherefore, O loving Mother,
as I am thine own,
keep me, defend me,
as thy property and possession.
Amen.

As you can see post #302 JeanneFrancoise explained the Catholic familial devotion to the Holy Family to me. My reply indicates that I understand……I simply don’t agree.

You don’t agree that we do not worship Mary? You understand that we have a reverence for her…?

 

[SIA]

You don’t agree that we do not worship Mary? You understand that we have a reverence for her…?

My question would be that if we know how Scriptures says that God had a special purpose for Mary, then why the reverence? God’s plan came full circle. Our everlasting worship and glory and honor is to our Lord Jesus who alone is our salvation and our crystal fountain of faith.

 

[hays1122]

My question would be that if we know how Scriptures says that God had a special purpose for Mary, then why the reverence? God’s plan came full circle. Our everlasting worship and glory and honor is to our Lord Jesus who alone is our salvation and our crystal fountain of faith.

Try visiting a website that tells about how people have seen visions of Mary. And Mary tells them that they should pray to her.
Visit: Indefenseofthecross.com
This is a very small example of what you’ll find:
Our Lady of China-1900-
Father Wu, a Chinese priest, invoked the help of Mary,during a battle.
The Virgin of Revelation-1947- Bruno Cornacchiola saw the virgin Mary.At that point, the Virgin of the Revelation taught him the sure means of salvation, for him and for and all mankind, which is prayer, and in particular the daily recitation of the Holy Rosary. “Pray much and recite the Rosary for the conversion of sinners, of unbelievers and of all Christians.” As a reward to those souls who would listen to her message of prayer for the salvation of mankind, the Virgin promised great favors from Heaven. “In this place of sin I shall perform wonderful miracles for the conversion of unbelievers.”
“Zeitoun,Egypt-April 2, 1968-the apparitions of the Holy Virgin Saint Mary, Mother of Light, have continued in the Coptic Orthodox Church named after Her in Zeitoun, Cairo.”
There’s a lot more I could add but you should find out for yourself as I did.
I think this website shows why Catholics believe that Mary should be venerated.

 

[Cinette]

Quote:
No Mary was special. Don’t forget she is also the Mother of God.
But more importantly…HE is God.

Tell me LeeAnn – can you claim to understand the Trinity? Can you explain it?

Yes, Jesus is God. He is also the Son of God. The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and she conceived a child who was the Holy Son of God. Who was His Mother? Mary.

Mary was the Immaculate Conception – she was exempt from original sin by a direct act of God because she was destined to bear Jesus, the Son of God.

This was discerned by those who were equipped by Jesus and the Holy Spirit to teach truth as they did with the doctrine of the Trinity.

Do we understand? No. We have limited understanding of the dimensions of God and his realm – we are restricted to only 4 dimensions.

Do we believe? Yes because we love and trust God. This is called Faith. In this regard I would like to this quote from St Augustine, " Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand."

How do you interpret Elizabeth’s question when she asked “And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me?” Was this not the same as “And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my God comes to me?”

We have to acknowledge that Mary was a very special human being who was especially chosen by God to perform an important role. She lived up to this expectation.

We Catholics believe that she has continued to play an important role – always pointing to Jesus. Look at the evidence of the apparitions at Lourdes and Fatima for example. Look at Guadaloupe - the FRUITS. You should get the DVD on this with Dan Lynch (a lawyer who gave up his profession to pursue promoting Our Lady of Guadaloupe. Amazing evidence!

Luther, Calvin and Zwingli (some of the “reformers”) all had a very special devotion to Mary and also acknowledged her to be the Mother of God. All these beliefs were abandoned over the centuries. The many diverse threads of Protestantism are evidence that without a central authority and apostolic succession that is what happens - their beliefs change.

If we understood everything the Bible taught us there would be no need for Faith.

Leeann I understand your intensity, your search, your objections, your outrage. Jesus Himself said some pretty outrageous and unfair things!

We also ave the evidence of over 2000 years. So pause, reflect. It isn’t easy for you I know - I know many Protestants have a problem with Mary. My husband, who was atheist all his life had no problem in accepting and embracing Mary.

Maybe one day you will learn to love Mary as we do

 

[Leeann]

**Hi Cinette **

How do you interpret Elizabeth’s question when she asked “And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me?” Was this not the same as “And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my God comes to me?”

I’ve never had a problem with Mary being called the mother of God.

If we understood everything the Bible taught us there would be no need for Faith.

**You’re preaching to the choir here! **

Leeann I understand your intensity, your search, your objections, your outrage. Jesus Himself said some pretty outrageous and unfair things!

Cinette…I’m not searching…I’m quite confident and content right where I am and in what I am…a child of God. And while I am intense with my objections, I am not outraged. I don’t really think you do understand my objections as is evident in your postings.

I am not aware of any “unfair things” that Jesus Himself said…perhaps you could enlighten me on that.

We also have the evidence of over 2000 years. So pause, reflect. It isn’t easy for you I know - I know many Protestants have a problem with Mary. My husband, who was atheist all his life had no problem in accepting and embracing Mary.

I’ve never had any problem with accepting and embracing Mary for the role she played in our Lord’s birth, one of my own daughters is named in her honour. I just don’t believe that the Catholic perspective is a valid one with regards to Mary.

 

[Cinette]

Cinette…I’m not searching…I’m quite confident and content right where I am and in what I am…a child of God. And while I am intense with my objections, I am not outraged. I don’t really think you do understand my objections as is evident in your postings.

I am not aware of any “unfair things” that Jesus Himself said…perhaps you could enlighten me on that.

Quote:
We also have the evidence of over 2000 years. So pause, reflect. It isn’t easy for you I know - I know many Protestants have a problem with Mary. My husband, who was atheist all his life had no problem in accepting and embracing Mary.
I’ve never had any problem with accepting and embracing Mary for the role she played in our Lord’s birth, one of my own daughters is named in her honour. I just don’t believe that the Catholic perspective is a valid one with regards to Mary.

---

 

[churchcamefirst]

Try visiting a website that tells about how people have seen visions of Mary. And Mary tells them that they should pray to her.
Visit: Indefenseofthecross.com
This is a very small example of what you’ll find:
Our Lady of China-1900-
Father Wu, a Chinese priest, invoked the help of Mary,during a battle.
The Virgin of Revelation-1947- Bruno Cornacchiola saw the virgin Mary.At that point, the Virgin of the Revelation taught him the sure means of salvation, for him and for and all mankind, which is prayer, and in particular the daily recitation of the Holy Rosary. “Pray much and recite the Rosary for the conversion of sinners, of unbelievers and of all Christians.” As a reward to those souls who would listen to her message of prayer for the salvation of mankind, the Virgin promised great favors from Heaven. “In this place of sin I shall perform wonderful miracles for the conversion of unbelievers.”
“Zeitoun,Egypt-April 2, 1968-the apparitions of the Holy Virgin Saint Mary, Mother of Light, have continued in the Coptic Orthodox Church named after Her in Zeitoun, Cairo.”
There’s a lot more I could add but you should find out for yourself as I did.
I think this website shows why Catholics believe that Mary should be venerated.

hays, I think it’s nice that as a Protestant you believe the apparitions of the Blessed Mother. Maybe she is calling out to you to recite the rosary yourself, and to look into the Catholic faith. We just had two Methodist converts at my church.