I'm getting tired of hearing from Protestants that we worship Mary and the saints!

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Chris_LaRock said:
I understand that questioning such deeply cherished beliefs like this on a Catholic forum makes me public enemy #1 around here, but I can’t help but wonder why someone would pray to a dead saint for intercession when scripture clearly says that Jesus Christ is the only person you can go to in order to have union with God the father.

Just where did praying to dead saints originate from? I certainly don’t see it in scripture.
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No, it does not make you public enemy number one. Now, ignoring the proofs that others have put up does not endear you to them.

First, is God the God of the Living or the Dead? See Matt. 22:31-32

Are those who are baptised into Christ, even though they die, alive in him?

If the answers are Living and yes, there is no reason not to pray to them, but just to help

Mark 9:4 has Jesus talking to Moses and elijah. What is going on? They were aware and able to talk?

Phil. 1:21 to die is to gain

II Cor. 5:8 Dead to the body, present to the Lord

Luke 16:19-31 The dead are aware and can implore Abraham

Matt. 22:30 and Mark 12:25 Men in heaven can act as angels, carrying prayers and messages as seen in Revelation

Rev. 5:8 They are offering the prayers of the saints (probably those still on earth). This one is the biggest

Rev 8:3-4 An angel offers the prayers of the saints

Eph. 2:19 One household of God would include those in heaven
 
And I forgot, the word “mediator” is properly defined as one who brokers a treaty. Jesus brokered the treaty between God and Man (Covenant, as a matter of fact). The term you keep using that word for is intermediary, which is a go between.

Jesus is not the heavenly UPS man.
 
Ralph,

You left out Revelations 6:9-11, where those who are martyred ask how long it will be God will avenge their blood and judge those who dwell on the earth. So apparently the saints in heaven are a) conscious and b) aware of events on the earth.
 
RNRobert said:
Ralph,

You left out Revelations 6:9-11, where those who are martyred ask how long it will be God will avenge their blood and judge those who dwell on the earth. So apparently the saints in heaven are a) conscious and b) aware of events on the earth.
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Thanks.

It is one of those topics where Jesus never says “Pray to saints.” Then again, he never says “I am God worship me” nor does he say “There is a Trinity of three Divine Persons in One God” yet we see proof enough of both to flesh out a theology.
 
Chris_LaRock said:
I understand that questioning such deeply cherished beliefs like this on a Catholic forum makes me public enemy #1 around here, but I can’t help but wonder why someone would pray to a dead saint for intercession when scripture clearly says that Jesus Christ is the only person you can go to in order to have union with God the father.

Just where did praying to dead saints originate from? I certainly don’t see it in scripture.
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I’ve been reading this thread and I think I see the problem.

Chris, you keep saying that Catholics are praying to “dead saints”. The Catholics keep responding to you that the saints are not dead.

Perhaps you are a member of a church whose theology says that the dead “sleep” till the final Resurrection? In that case, I can see why you’d think that praying to the “dead” saints is futile - even if they’re alive, they’re asleep, so they wouldn’t hear!

However, Catholics (and the Orthodox, as well as many Protestants) believe that the saints are alive and awake right now, and that God allows them to continue to participate in our lives here on earth.

You don’t have to agree with this but I think it may be the source of our disagreement. 🙂
 
Chris_LaRock said:
I understand that questioning such deeply cherished beliefs like this on a Catholic forum makes me public enemy #1 around here, but I can’t help but wonder why someone would pray to a dead saint for intercession when scripture clearly says that Jesus Christ is the only person you can go to in order to have union with God the father.

Just where did praying to dead saints originate from? I certainly don’t see it in scripture.
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Again - if Jesus Christ is the ONLY person you can go to then why do you bother with ANYONE else whosoever, including your friends - in fact including your pastor or Church congregation? Why bother worshipping in community or praying in groups?

Surely by your logic none of these can do anything whatsoever for you that you and Jesus alone can’t do, so why do you approach them for prayers?

By the way Chris, not a one of us sees you as an enemy, any more than a maths teacher sees a student who can’t wrap their head around algebra as an ‘enemy’.

See to be an enemy would imply that you were threatening, which you’re not in the slightest, and important, which you’re not especially either (but then neither is any of us).

You’re simply, from our point of view, not quite ‘getting it’, like the student who doesn’t quite ‘get’ algebra. And then insists that the teacher can’t possibly be right just because they don’t understand the reasoning behind the teaching. :nope:
 
LilyM said:
Again - if Jesus Christ is the ONLY person you can go to then why do you bother with ANYONE else whosoever, including your friends - in fact including your pastor or Church congregation? Why bother worshipping in community or praying in groups?

Surely by your logic none of these can do anything whatsoever for you that you and Jesus alone can’t do, so why do you approach them for prayers?

By the way Chris, not a one of us sees you as an enemy, any more than a maths teacher sees a student who can’t wrap their head around algebra as an ‘enemy’.

See to be an enemy would imply that you were threatening, which you’re not in the slightest, and important, which you’re not especially either (but then neither is any of us).

You’re simply, from our point of view, not quite ‘getting it’, like the student who doesn’t quite ‘get’ algebra. And then insists that the teacher can’t possibly be right just because they don’t understand the reasoning behind the teaching. :nope:
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If I may, I believe the point here is that Mary is one of many that we can certainly pray with including the entire communion of saints, but not Mary alone as if she can do something for us that nobody else can do. I ask my church family to pray for me often and I pray with Mary and the saints respectively. What I don’t do is venerate or pay special homage to Mary as if she holds the key on my soul. I believe that God had a special purpose for Mary as he did for others in the Scriptures as well. Mary was a special woman indeed, but she does not posess superhuman qualities over and above the remainder of the saints.
 
LilyM said:
A question in response: If YOU can pray directly to Jesus (AKA God in human flesh) why would YOU want to pray to a friend (ie ask for their intercession in exactly the same manner in which we ask for Mary’s - which is something you do all the time)???
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Good question. 👍
 
SIA said:
Mary was a special woman indeed, but she does not posess superhuman qualities over and above the remainder of the saints.
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She is special and agree that she did not possess supernatural qualities that make her equal to God. Her sinless is due to God’s own merits and his saving grace.

I do believe she is above the all the saints, she is God’s perfect creation. She is a creature. She above them because unlike any created being, she gave birth to the Word made flesh.
 
Protestants are taught that the Catholic faith is the wrong way to go. And yes one thing we are taught is that Catholics are wrong because they do worship or pray to Mary in the way we should pray to Jesus.
Let me say that I have fallen in love with EWTN and a few of the different speakers they have on. And Father Corapi is one of my favorites.
I listened to Father John Corapi once talk about how he prayed the Rosary about 1,000 times a day because he was going through a very hard time in his life. He promised to pray like this for 30 days.
He said that on the 30th day he received a phone call and basically, as protestants would say,
he received the answer to his prayers.
He preaches for one hour so I had to condense this a bit.
I tell you if I told this story to my preacher he would probably say something like," That’s not from God because he didn’t pray through Jesus, Jesus is the only way to the Father."
And of course if it’s not from God it must be from Satan.
Millions of people are saying prayers like Father Corapi and experiencing healing and miracles. They pray the Rosary.
Are we to believe that Satan is doing this to deceive them?
I really want to know,who is being deceived.
Another thing that makes me question the protestant teachings is the fact that there are hundreds of protestant denominations.
Compared to One Catholic church.
I am very glad I found this website. I have learned so much already.
God bless,he blesses those who seek Him.
 
Chris_LaRock said:
But Jesus Christ alone is our go-between. He is our only advocate with God the Father.
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He’s more than that - He’s totally “with God” & totally “with men”. He is not a go-between :eek:​

Let’s suppose you are praying to Mary, or a saint. An image of that person appears in front of you. Do you assume the spirit is who you think it is, or do you test the spirit to see if it is from God?

Praying to Mary or the Saints opens you up to be tricked by demons.
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No more so than prayer for a living person. Prayer is something we do in God 🙂​

 
SIA said:
If I may, I believe the point here is that Mary is one of many that we can certainly pray with including the entire communion of saints, but not Mary alone as if she can do something for us that nobody else can do. I ask my church family to pray for me often and I pray with Mary and the saints respectively. What I don’t do is venerate or pay special homage to Mary as if she holds the key on my soul. I believe that God had a special purpose for Mary as he did for others in the Scriptures as well. Mary was a special woman indeed, but she does not posess superhuman qualities over and above the remainder of the saints.
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Mary, like all the saints, earthly and heavenly, possesses any and every quality, natural or supernatural, which God sees fit to grant her.

The Apostles and disciples certainly possessed, through the gracious gift of God, supernatural qualities as well as natural ones.

The 72 possssed the supernatural ability to heal and cast out demons when sent on mission by Christ.

The 120 received the supernatural gift of tongues on Pentecost.

Peter had the supernatural ability to raise folk from the dead and heal them with his mere shadow.

Paul healed with handkerchiefs that were blessed by him (the precursor of our veneration of relics of the saints and our belief in the power of sacramentals, btw).

Philip relocated a long distance after his chat with the Ethiopian.

John was gifted to both see and hear, in Revelation, EVERY creature in heaven, on earth and under the earth - all simultaneously.

These are supernatural abilities, no? And yet mere humans possessed them, through the gracious gift of God who is superabundantly generous to those who love Him.

Now Jesus, being the perfect keeper of the commandments, certainly honoured and honours (he hasn’t ceased to be her son after all) Mary, as His mother, as the commandment bound Him to do, over and above all of these. More than that, He honours her to as great an extent as lies within His power. To do less, unless she were to be in any wise undeserving, which there is no indication is the case, would be a sin against that commandment.

So we can logically conclude that Mary not only received similar gifts to all of the above, but possessed (and possesses them, since death certainly can’t render her or any of us who die in Christ LESS powerful than she was when on Earth, since it doesn’t separate us from Him) to a greater degree than any of the recepients I’ve mentioned. QED 🤷
 
Mannyfit75 said:
I am fed up with the false misconceptions by Protestant Christians who insist that we worship Mary and the saints. I will put this in plain English.

Catholics DO NOT worship Mary and the saints. It is veneration and honor due to them because they lived out the life that Jesus Christ taught them! They are also in Heaven with God. They are much closer to God than you and me.

Who are you to judge us that we worship saints and Mary? Do you think you an expert in Catholicism. Do you have proof from a Catholic document permitting the worship of saints and Mary?

You won’t find it. We believe these saints are more alive than you and me. It benefits us to ask the entire of the people of God to help us while we are still in this world which is full of temptation and sin. We ask the saints to “pray for us.”

Many times here on Catholic Answers Forums. Some Newbie self-proclaimed Christian declares, I say many Catholics worship Mary. Not all do, and maybe it’s not in the instruction manual, but many do. Every Catholic will come to these idoloters’ defense and say, “Oh, it’s not worship, it’s veneration.” Sorry, not buying it, and nobody should.

Oh, please. You will probably start searching for the truth and use Catholic prayer books on saints and Mary as proof text. Prayer Books however, are not Church documents.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church forbids worshipping idols. Worship is due to God alone.

Must we Catholic force you to type, “Catholics do not worship Mary.”

If you continue on this persistence, I might as well say that “Protestants worship the Bible, or the roof during their Sunday worship at Church.”

After all they raise hands up towards the ceiling. So they worship ceilings of the Church. Of course, I don’t think they worship ceiling just because they had their hands raised up high in adoration.
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Just think about how much Jesus had to deal with His own disciples. They were so slow to learning that He had to keep going back to the same issues, over and over again, adding to them, enlightening His disciples, little by little. Yet He didn’t get angry at them; He simply smiled, was patient with them, and told them the truth. I know we are not perfect as Jesus, but we must imitate Him, because Jesus is God; we must become like shining mirrors of the Lord - through God, with God, and in God.
 
hays1122 said:
And of course if it’s not from God it must be from Satan.
Millions of people are saying prayers like Father Corapi and experiencing healing and miracles. They pray the Rosary.
Are we to believe that Satan is doing this to deceive them?
I really want to know,who is being deceived.
Another thing that makes me question the protestant teachings is the fact that there are hundreds of protestant denominations.
Compared to One Catholic church.
I am very glad I found this website. I have learned so much already.
God bless,he blesses those who seek Him.
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Many believe that Catholic miracles are the works of Satan (including myself at one time). But don’t forget that Jesus himself was accused of doing miracles by the power of the devil
(Matthew 12:24-28; Mark 3:22-26; Luke 11:15-20), so we can’t be surprised when his Church is accused of the same thing.

Welcome to this website, I hope it helps you in your faith journey. 👍
 
Mannyfit75 said:
She is special and agree that she did not possess supernatural qualities that make her equal to God. Her sinless is due to God’s own merits and his saving grace.

I do believe she is above the all the saints, she is God’s perfect creation. She is a creature. She above them because unlike any created being, she gave birth to the Word made flesh.
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Special she was and is, but perfect creation she was not. Only Jesus was a perfect creation. Check your Scripture.
 
LilyM said:
Mary, like all the saints, earthly and heavenly, possesses any and every quality, natural or supernatural, which God sees fit to grant her.

The Apostles and disciples certainly possessed, through the gracious gift of God, supernatural qualities as well as natural ones.

The 72 possssed the supernatural ability to heal and cast out demons when sent on mission by Christ.

The 120 received the supernatural gift of tongues on Pentecost.

Peter had the supernatural ability to raise folk from the dead and heal them with his mere shadow.

Paul healed with handkerchiefs that were blessed by him (the precursor of our veneration of relics of the saints and our belief in the power of sacramentals, btw).

Philip relocated a long distance after his chat with the Ethiopian.

John was gifted to both see and hear, in Revelation, EVERY creature in heaven, on earth and under the earth - all simultaneously.

These are supernatural abilities, no? And yet mere humans possessed them, through the gracious gift of God who is superabundantly generous to those who love Him.

Now Jesus, being the perfect keeper of the commandments, certainly honoured and honours (he hasn’t ceased to be her son after all) Mary, as His mother, as the commandment bound Him to do, over and above all of these. More than that, He honours her to as great an extent as lies within His power. To do less, unless she were to be in any wise undeserving, which there is no indication is the case, would be a sin against that commandment.

So we can logically conclude that Mary not only received similar gifts to all of the above, but possessed (and possesses them, since death certainly can’t render her or any of us who die in Christ LESS powerful than she was when on Earth, since it doesn’t separate us from Him) to a greater degree than any of the recepients I’ve mentioned. QED 🤷
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The point here is that Mary does not have qualities that would deem her as divine. To call her coredemptrix and comediatrix is to claim her as divinity.
 
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