I'm getting tired of hearing from Protestants that we worship Mary and the saints!

[hays1122]

Touché. I guess I missed the “brainwashing” statement.

Yes I’d agree with the use of the word “brainwashing”.
But don’t most parents do that to their children.
Maybe some parents are more adamant then others.
But if you’re a God fearing parent you teach your children about God. You read your bible to them. Catholics send their children to Catechism classes protestants to Sunday School. You make sure they know what your church teaches. And you pray that they won’t leave your Church. If you believe in your church you will want your children to grow up with that same kind of love for what your church teaches.
A lot of people are Catholics because that’s all they know.
So just think of other religions the same way.

 

[Thing]

But the prayer is directed toward Mary. Yes Jesus is mentioned,she is the mother of Jesus. But “Hail Mary” is what I am talking about.
Hail Mary Full of grace. The Lord is with thee.Blessed art thou among women,and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.
This is a prayer directed to Mary. Not toward Jesus in adoration to the Lord Jesus. And Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.Amen
That is also not directed toward Jesus.
Do you see the difference?
Am I to understand that when you pray “Hail Mary” or “Holy Mary mother of God” you believe you are praying to God. Do you equate praying to Mary as the same as praying to Jesus our God?
I know that Jesus,God and the Holy spirit are one. When we pray to Jesus we pray to God because they are one.
John 10:30
“I and my Father are one”.
So maybe that’s what is confusing me. Maybe what I don’t get is that you believe praying to Mary is the same thing as praying to God. Because you believe that since she is the mother of God she is part of God?
I know somewhere in one of the topics someone wrote about if he talked to his wife he was talking to God. Because his wife had God’s spirit in her. Is this what you mean?
I am trying to understand and I ask this in Christian love.
We love the Lord Jesus Christ and he is our bond.

If a simple prayer is the only way you have to adore God, then by all means keep it for God.
A spoken prayer was not the way God was adored though.
Abraham willed to offer his son as a human sacrifice to God.
The ancient Jews offered animals as a sacrifice to God.
Jesus offered His own body as a sacrifice to God.
Catholicism offers Jesus’ body as sacrifice to God, it is the only acceptable sacrifice because it is the purest sacrifice possible.
That is what adoration in Catholicism means, the highest act of praise, profound love, and worship we can offer can only be the very same sacrifice of love to God that God offered to Himself.
There are no other sacrifices possible, He does not want them.
What He desires now is mercy not sacrifice.
By receiving the eucharist [His body] we join ourselves to Him. We share His life. We live as Him living in us, His love, His mercy. We eat Gods flesh. We become part of Gods life. And our life becomes part of His life.
Our life becomes like a prayer to Him.
Everything we do, every act or thought is done in Him and potentially becomes a prayer to Him.

Adoration of Him is through adoration of Him in the eucharist at mass.
He is truly there, as He said He is.
The prayer Christ taught the Apostles the, Our Father, first acknowledges who God is, our Father, His Holiness, the desire for His kingdom to be in us, and then asks, or petitions, Him for what we need.
Spoken prayer is not necessarily always only Worship.

Its very normal for some one to step outside, look around at the scenery, plants, and the weather and think, or laugh, as acts of praise and thanksgiving.
Its perfectly normal to enjoy creation for what it is. But you would be hard pressed to say that your enjoyment was an act of adoration. Not all prayer is adoration, not all prayer is verbal and not all prayer is directed directly at Gods person.
Indirectly you praise God by enjoying the good things He gives you.
You are not adoring the things. But your appreciation of them is a prayer indirectly to their creator. Your work can be like a prayer, but you don’t adore the tools or the work you do, you can use them to speak to Him, instead of switching off everytime you are not engaged in verbal prayer.

We can see Mary in the same light, we can see the great things God has done to her and praise God through her, as Elizabeth did, by thinking about her life, or as a living person in heaven, very dear to Gods heart, we can simply ask for her intercession for us to ask God for the things we need. No different than St. Paul asking the living brethern for prayers or asking them to pray for one another to God. Petition is the principal act of prayer.

It is painfully obvious to everyone that one of Gods creatures is not God.
Who could make that mistake.
Why would anyone be afraid of making that mistake.

A prayer to Mary is like a prayer to God because God is praised in Mary.
God is being praised through Marys continued existance.

And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord.

St. Paul - 11 And again: Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and magnify him, all ye people.
St. John - 4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and magnify thy name?

Marys’ soul magnified the Lord.
We are all called to magnify the Lord.

There are many ways to praise God, not all are adoration, some may just be a thankyou.

But the prayer is directed toward Mary.

Yes. And not all prayer is Adoration of God directly.
And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

Elizabeth, inspired, when she was filled with the Holy Ghost, directly addressed this prayer of praise of Mary, and of God, to Mary herself.

You are saying nothing different than the Holy Ghost said when you say Blessed is the fruit… , and as Mary is alive and living in Christ you can speak to her as easily as Elizabeth spoke to her.
All praise of Gods creation and of His creatures goes ultimately to their creator. And all petitions to His people go ultimately to Him.

When the angel said Hail Mary, full of grace, was the angel praising a human creature ‘alone’ or was he saluting Mary for something great God had done to her. 49 Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name.

 

[RNRobert]

Thing,

That post was awesome!

 

[onenow1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by hays1122
But the prayer is directed toward Mary. Yes Jesus is mentioned,she is the mother of Jesus. But “Hail Mary” is what I am talking about.
Hail Mary Full of grace. The Lord is with thee.Blessed art thou among women,and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.
This is a prayer directed to Mary. Not toward Jesus in adoration to the Lord Jesus. And Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.Amen
That is also not directed toward Jesus.
Do you see the difference?
Am I to understand that when you pray “Hail Mary” or “Holy Mary mother of God” you believe you are praying to God. Do you equate praying to Mary as the same as praying to Jesus our God?
I know that Jesus,God and the Holy spirit are one. When we pray to Jesus we pray to God because they are one.
John 10:30
“I and my Father are one”.
So maybe that’s what is confusing me. Maybe what I don’t get is that you believe praying to Mary is the same thing as praying to God. Because you believe that since she is the mother of God she is part of God?
I know somewhere in one of the topics someone wrote about if he talked to his wife he was talking to God. Because his wife had God’s spirit in her. Is this what you mean?
I am trying to understand and I ask this in Christian love.
We love the Lord Jesus Christ and he is our bond.

If a simple prayer is the only way you have to adore God, then by all means keep it for God.
A spoken prayer was not the way God was adored though.
Abraham willed to offer his son as a human sacrifice to God.
The ancient Jews offered animals as a sacrifice to God.
Jesus offered His own body as a sacrifice to God.
Catholicism offers Jesus’ body as sacrifice to God, it is the only acceptable sacrifice because it is the purest sacrifice possible.
That is what adoration in Catholicism means, the highest act of praise, profound love, and worship we can offer can only be the very same sacrifice of love to God that God offered to Himself.
There are no other sacrifices possible, He does not want them.
What He desires now is mercy not sacrifice.
By receiving the eucharist [His body] we join ourselves to Him. We share His life. We live as Him living in us, His love, His mercy. We eat Gods flesh. We become part of Gods life. And our life becomes part of His life.
Our life becomes like a prayer to Him.
Everything we do, every act or thought is done in Him and potentially becomes a prayer to Him.

Adoration of Him is through adoration of Him in the eucharist at mass.
He is truly there, as He said He is.
The prayer Christ taught the Apostles the, Our Father, first acknowledges who God is, our Father, His Holiness, the desire for His kingdom to be in us, and then asks, or petitions, Him for what we need.
Spoken prayer is not necessarily always only Worship.

Its very normal for some one to step outside, look around at the scenery, plants, and the weather and think, or laugh, as acts of praise and thanksgiving.
Its perfectly normal to enjoy creation for what it is. But you would be hard pressed to say that your enjoyment was an act of adoration. Not all prayer is adoration, not all prayer is verbal and not all prayer is directed directly at Gods person.
Indirectly you praise God by enjoying the good things He gives you.
You are not adoring the things. But your appreciation of them is a prayer indirectly to their creator. Your work can be like a prayer, but you don’t adore the tools or the work you do, you can use them to speak to Him, instead of switching off everytime you are not engaged in verbal prayer.

We can see Mary in the same light, we can see the great things God has done to her and praise God through her, as Elizabeth did, by thinking about her life, or as a living person in heaven, very dear to Gods heart, we can simply ask for her intercession for us to ask God for the things we need. No different than St. Paul asking the living brethern for prayers or asking them to pray for one another to God. Petition is the principal act of prayer.

It is painfully obvious to everyone that one of Gods creatures is not God.
Who could make that mistake.
Why would anyone be afraid of making that mistake.

A prayer to Mary is like a prayer to God because God is praised in Mary.
God is being praised through Marys continued existance.

And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord.

St. Paul - 11 And again: Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and magnify him, all ye people.
St. John - 4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and magnify thy name?

Marys’ soul magnified the Lord.
We are all called to magnify the Lord.

There are many ways to praise God, not all are adoration, some may just be a thankyou.

But the prayer is directed toward Mary.

Yes. And not all prayer is Adoration of God directly.
And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

Elizabeth, inspired, when she was filled with the Holy Ghost, directly addressed this prayer of praise of Mary, and of God, to Mary herself.

You are saying nothing different than the Holy Ghost said when you say Blessed is the fruit… , and as Mary is alive and living in Christ you can speak to her as easily as Elizabeth spoke to her.
All praise of Gods creation and of His creatures goes ultimately to their creator. And all petitions to His people go ultimately to Him.

When the angel said Hail Mary, full of grace, was the angel praising a human creature ‘alone’ or was he saluting Mary for something great God had done to her. 49 Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name.

Truthful replies to honest inquiries !

Peace,OneNow1

 

[mmplps7783]

Why? when you don’t recite the rosary, nor do you believe The Blessed Mother is the Queen of Heaven. I understand Protestants just think she is just a conceiver…just curious why you would stick up for her when there have been so many Protestants against her.

Talk about your misconceptions. Protestants are not against Mary. How could we be if she is the mother of our Christ and Savior. What we are against is making her more important than her son. One thing I have realized from this site is that very many like to throw around assumptions and accusations about one belief or another and very few actually set aside their differences to get to the bottom of the situation. While you personally may not feel as if you place Mary above Christ that is the appearance given to others that are not of the same religion. I understand that you are praying to her for her to go to Christ who then goes to God. What you need to explain to others is that the prayers to the saints are basically like the Lord’s prayer…words to use when you can’t find your own.

 

[reteeks21]

Talk about your misconceptions. Protestants are not against Mary. How could we be if she is the mother of our Christ and Savior. What we are against is making her more important than her son. One thing I have realized from this site is that very many like to throw around assumptions and accusations about one belief or another and very few actually set aside their differences to get to the bottom of the situation. While you personally may not feel as if you place Mary above Christ that is the appearance given to others that are not of the same religion. I understand that you are praying to her for her to go to Christ who then goes to God. What you need to explain to others is that the prayers to the saints are basically like the Lord’s prayer…words to use when you can’t find your own.

Excellent post. Nice, simple, friendly way of describing how some people feel.

 

[mmplps7783]

If a simple prayer is the only way you have to adore God, then by all means keep it for God.
A spoken prayer was not the way God was adored though.
Abraham willed to offer his son as a human sacrifice to God.
The ancient Jews offered animals as a sacrifice to God.
Jesus offered His own body as a sacrifice to God.
Catholicism offers Jesus’ body as sacrifice to God, it is the only acceptable sacrifice because it is the purest sacrifice possible.
That is what adoration in Catholicism means, the highest act of praise, profound love, and worship we can offer can only be the very same sacrifice of love to God that God offered to Himself.
There are no other sacrifices possible, He does not want them.
What He desires now is mercy not sacrifice.
By receiving the eucharist [His body] we join ourselves to Him. We share His life. We live as Him living in us, His love, His mercy. We eat Gods flesh. We become part of Gods life. And our life becomes part of His life.
Our life becomes like a prayer to Him.
Everything we do, every act or thought is done in Him and potentially becomes a prayer to Him.

Adoration of Him is through adoration of Him in the eucharist at mass.
He is truly there, as He said He is.
The prayer Christ taught the Apostles the, Our Father, first acknowledges who God is, our Father, His Holiness, the desire for His kingdom to be in us, and then asks, or petitions, Him for what we need.
Spoken prayer is not necessarily always only Worship.

Its very normal for some one to step outside, look around at the scenery, plants, and the weather and think, or laugh, as acts of praise and thanksgiving.
Its perfectly normal to enjoy creation for what it is. But you would be hard pressed to say that your enjoyment was an act of adoration. Not all prayer is adoration, not all prayer is verbal and not all prayer is directed directly at Gods person.
Indirectly you praise God by enjoying the good things He gives you.
You are not adoring the things. But your appreciation of them is a prayer indirectly to their creator. Your work can be like a prayer, but you don’t adore the tools or the work you do, you can use them to speak to Him, instead of switching off everytime you are not engaged in verbal prayer.

We can see Mary in the same light, we can see the great things God has done to her and praise God through her, as Elizabeth did, by thinking about her life, or as a living person in heaven, very dear to Gods heart, we can simply ask for her intercession for us to ask God for the things we need. No different than St. Paul asking the living brethern for prayers or asking them to pray for one another to God. Petition is the principal act of prayer.

It is painfully obvious to everyone that one of Gods creatures is not God.
Who could make that mistake.
Why would anyone be afraid of making that mistake.

A prayer to Mary is like a prayer to God because God is praised in Mary.
God is being praised through Marys continued existance.

And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord.

St. Paul - 11 And again: Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and magnify him, all ye people.
St. John - 4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and magnify thy name?

Marys’ soul magnified the Lord.
We are all called to magnify the Lord.

There are many ways to praise God, not all are adoration, some may just be a thankyou.

But the prayer is directed toward Mary.

Yes. And not all prayer is Adoration of God directly.
And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

Elizabeth, inspired, when she was filled with the Holy Ghost, directly addressed this prayer of praise of Mary, and of God, to Mary herself.

You are saying nothing different than the Holy Ghost said when you say Blessed is the fruit… , and as Mary is alive and living in Christ you can speak to her as easily as Elizabeth spoke to her.
All praise of Gods creation and of His creatures goes ultimately to their creator. And all petitions to His people go ultimately to Him.

When the angel said Hail Mary, full of grace, was the angel praising a human creature ‘alone’ or was he saluting Mary for something great God had done to her. 49 Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name.

Everything that you said is true to a point. My only question would be that you made the example of going outside and enjoying the flowers or the weather…but when you go outside and marvel at His wonders you don’t say glory be to the flowers. You don’t thank the flowers you say thank you God for this beautiful day. Thank you for allowing me one more day to live and enjoy and to fullfill the purpose you have for my life. The problem is is that just like every human we approach life (and God) from different angles. I would prefer to praise God first and foremost and get to heaven than the oter way around.

If you think that I exaggerate whenever I talk about my in-laws I’m not. There is a program on T.V. that is called The Rose of Guadelupe (that’s the name of virgin mary). This mother was screaming at her son, miguel, to stop (he was beating up his brother b/c the brother killed someone but told the police that miguel did it & miguel went to prison for eight yrs), anyway…she was screaming “for the love of God stop” but he wouldn’t then she screamed “for the love of the virgin mary” oh for that he stopped but not for name of God. This is an example of why I feel very uncomfortable praying to anyone other than Christ

 

[Thing]

Everything that you said is true to a point. My only question would be that you made the example of going outside and enjoying the flowers or the weather…but when you go outside and marvel at His wonders you don’t say glory be to the flowers. You don’t thank the flowers you say thank you God for this beautiful day. … This is an example of why I feel very uncomfortable praying to anyone other than Christ

You don’t in fact say anything, initially. Unless perhaps if you are with someone, you might say - wow. Your first sense on going outside is just a sense of enjoyment and pleasure, before you even think about why or to who you should thank.
You just enjoy the scene. First. Perhaps it fills your mind for a moment, then you might think to express your gratitude in words and so on.
Think, if you saw Mary at this moment in heaven your first thought would be - nothing. You would just stare at the wonderful sight in the first moment and it would fill up your senses, as the song goes, - from that experience, (I think anyway), that type of total response to beauty is possibly the purer prayer than the one a few moments later expressed in words.
There are Catholic contemplative religous orders; - “the object of contemplative life, is defined as the complacent, loving gaze of the soul on Divine truth already known and apprehended by the intellect assisted and enlightened by Divine grace.”
Contemplation; “…It is a soul lost in admiration and love of the Eternal Beauty, the sight of which though but a feeble reflection, fill it with a joy naught else in the world can give – a joy which, far more eloquently than speech, testifies that the soul rates that Beauty above all other beauties, and finds in It the completion of all its desires.”
newadvent.org/cathen/04329a.htm

 

[Thing]

The point being, that prayer is not just or always vocal. The sense of appreciation at the sight of the flowers or of Mary is also a prayer. It is not a prayer direct in words to God but it is a true prayer still, and a prayer in that sense to Mary is a true prayer to her creator whether it is expressed later in words or initially in a sense other than speech.
Bye.

 

[justasking4]

The point being, that prayer is not just or always vocal. The sense of appreciation at the sight of the flowers or of Mary is also a prayer. It is not a prayer direct in words to God but it is a true prayer still, and a prayer in that sense to Mary is a true prayer to her creator whether it is expressed later in words or initially in a sense other than speech.
Bye.

Does Mary have the ability to read the thoughts of men?

 

[Thing]

Does Mary have the ability to read the thoughts of men?

I just thought, that you also pray to Mary, ja4, when you read your scriptures about her. You are filled with wonder at the great things God has done for her, a mere human. You see in your minds eye a young woman being addressed by an angel sent from God, your mind struggles with the thought of a person - carrying the Creator of the Universe in her womb. An amazing, awful thought, what a wonderful thing, you think to yourself…
If you try praying to God in a wooden, emptyheaded way, just mouthing sounds with no thought behind them, do you think He will be listening, that would be the vain prayer people talk about. I think you must pray first with an appreciation of Him, that goes beyond words, your prayer starts out as a thought, and it may be a thought about the mystery of existance, a biblical insight, or a thought about a young woman carrying God. So your prayer to God in your thoughts first begins with the words of an angel, Hail, full of grace… and God knowing what you think about before you do allows the young woman to hear your praise of His greatness and her favour as He allowed Mary to hear Elizabeths great praise of her, because it magnifies her Lord.

 

[mmplps7783]

I just never in my life, you are probably the only Protestant who claims she is the Queen of Heaven. Then I apologize.
Are there any Protestants here to debate what your own kind thinks about the Mother of Christ?

I’m not sure if it is a misconception that catholics have of us or if I am just “different” as well. I don’t think there is a debate about whether she is queen. My only problem is that even if the queen has the ear of the King one still makes the petition to the king.

 

[mmplps7783]

The point being, that prayer is not just or always vocal. The sense of appreciation at the sight of the flowers or of Mary is also a prayer. It is not a prayer direct in words to God but it is a true prayer still, and a prayer in that sense to Mary is a true prayer to her creator whether it is expressed later in words or initially in a sense other than speech.
Bye.

 

[mmplps7783]

I just thought, that you also pray to Mary, ja4, when you read your scriptures about her. You are filled with wonder at the great things God has done for her, a mere human. You see in your minds eye a young woman being addressed by an angel sent from God, your mind struggles with the thought of a person - carrying the Creator of the Universe in her womb. An amazing, awful thought, what a wonderful thing, you think to yourself…
If you try praying to God in a wooden, emptyheaded way, just mouthing sounds with no thought behind them, do you think He will be listening, that would be the vain prayer people talk about. I think you must pray first with an appreciation of Him, that goes beyond words, your prayer starts out as a thought, and it may be a thought about the mystery of existance, a biblical insight, or a thought about a young woman carrying God. So your prayer to God in your thoughts first begins with the words of an angel, Hail, full of grace… and God knowing what you think about before you do allows the young woman to hear your praise of His greatness and her favour as He allowed Mary to hear Elizabeths great praise of her, because it magnifies her Lord.

But isn’t an “empty headed prayer” usually what results after praying the same prayer over and over again? It becomes routine and with time you forget the purpose behind the words.

 

[mmplps7783]

Does Mary have the ability to read the thoughts of men?

Not to be rude or anything but I would like to know why you asked if Mary could read the thoughts of men? What point were you getting at?

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Does Mary have the ability to read the thoughts of men?

mmplps7783
Not to be rude or anything but I would like to know why you asked if Mary could read the thoughts of men? What point were you getting at?

Don’t worry about being rude with me. I have been hammered quite alot by my “friends” out here for some time and you get used to it…

Not all prayers are verbal and many are mental so i want to know if she can read-hear these mental prayers?

 

[LilyM]

But isn’t an “empty headed prayer” usually what results after praying the same prayer over and over again? It becomes routine and with time you forget the purpose behind the words.

What, like when you say ‘I love you’ to your spouse once too often you all of a sudden forget why you’re saying it to them and it just becomes empty words? Five times a day is ok, but make it twenty or fifty and poof the meaning magically disappears?

To put it bluntly, a very naive view of prayer.

 

[mmplps7783]

What, like when you say ‘I love you’ to your spouse once too often you all of a sudden forget why you’re saying it to them and it just becomes empty words? Five times a day is ok, but make it twenty or fifty and poof the meaning magically disappears?

To put it bluntly, a very naive view of prayer.

Since you want to use that example… Not to say that they forgot that they love them or that they don’t love them. Nor am I saying that the meaning of the words are lost, it has just become a habit. For example many people whenever they hang up the telephone with their spouse they automatically say “love you bye”. But it is the time when something happens or you are just sitting there with your spouse watching a movie and you think wow this is nice and you lean over and say “you know what? I love you” that is the difference that I am talking about. The words might not have changed but the feeling behind the words have. Once it becomes routine you don’t think about why, you just say it out of habit. Did I explain myself or do I need to approach it differently?

 

[guanophore]

I am not outraged. I don’t really think you do understand my objections …I just don’t believe that the Catholic perspective is a valid one with regards to Mary.

This is a good thing. Since your understanding of “the Catholic perspective” is a pack of lies, either misperceived by you, or communicated to you by those in service to the father of lies, it is a relief that you do not believe them.

If you stay on CAF, and are open enough, you may come to understand that the lies you have been told should not be believed, but rather, what the Church truly teaches.

 

[Thing]

But isn’t an “empty headed prayer” usually what results after praying the same prayer over and over again? It becomes routine and with time you forget the purpose behind the words.

No. Unless you want it to.
Prayer starts as a thought, e.g. a meditation on one of the mysteries of the rosary, a thought about some profound truth no matter how small, exactly so that your mind will not only not be empty but it will not wander from prayer.
Its probably why Catholic prayer has become structured over the millenia, they have learned to approach prayer.