I'm getting tired of hearing from Protestants that we worship Mary and the saints!

[onenow1]

HI,
Originally Posted by mmplps7783
But isn’t an “empty headed prayer” usually what results after praying the same prayer over and over again? It becomes routine and with time you forget the purpose behind the words.

Quote= OneNow1. Do you think these are empty headed prayers ?

Matthew 26:44, So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words.

Revelation 4:8, And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all round and within, and day and night they never cease to sing, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!”

Isaiah1: 2-3, In the year that King Uzzi’ah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and his train filled the temple. Above him stood the seraphim; each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory.”

Peace, OneNow1

 

[guanophore]

The “Book” is all that we know of her. To go outside the “Book” is to speculate and build doctrines of men.

This is the case for you, ja4, because you have rejected the portion of divine revelation that is not confined to the book. You have aslo apparently erroneously convinced yourself that whatever you cannot find in it’s pages is “speculation and doctrines of men”. this is not the case.

 

[guanophore]

But the prayer is directed toward Mary. Yes Jesus is mentioned,she is the mother of Jesus. But “Hail Mary” is what I am talking about.
Hail Mary Full of grace. The Lord is with thee.Blessed art thou among women,and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.
This is a prayer directed to Mary. Not toward Jesus in adoration to the Lord Jesus.

I agree. Do you believe the only kind of prayer that is appropriate is one in adoration of Jesus?

And Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.Amen
That is also not directed toward Jesus.
Do you see the difference?

Yes.

Am I to understand that when you pray “Hail Mary” or “Holy Mary mother of God” you believe you are praying to God. Do you equate praying to Mary as the same as praying to Jesus our God?

No. But, neither do we separate Mary from the presence of God.

I know that Jesus,God and the Holy spirit are one. When we pray
to Jesus we pray to God because they are one.
John 10:30
“I and my Father are one”.
So maybe that’s what is confusing me. Maybe what I don’t get is that you believe praying to Mary is the same thing as praying to God. Because you believe that since she is the mother of God she is part of God?

Not a bit!

I know somewhere in one of the topics someone wrote about if he talked to his wife he was talking to God. Because his wife had God’s spirit in her. Is this what you mean?

I suppose that this might be a weak analogy. Certainly we should not say things to others that we would not say to Jesus. If we were more conscious of the Christ within, we would treat one another with more respect. As He said "And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.’
Matt 25:40-41

I am trying to understand and I ask this in Christian love.
We love the Lord Jesus Christ and he is our bond.

Yes, I believe that you are sincere.

 

[guanophore]

Yes I’d agree with the use of the word “brainwashing”.
But don’t most parents do that to their children.
Maybe some parents are more adamant then others.
But if you’re a God fearing parent you teach your children about God. You read your bible to them. Catholics send their children to Catechism classes protestants to Sunday School. You make sure they know what your church teaches. And you pray that they won’t leave your Church. If you believe in your church you will want your children to grow up with that same kind of love for what your church teaches.
A lot of people are Catholics because that’s all they know.
So just think of other religions the same way.

It is certainly true that the human mind is in need of washing!

5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of humankind was great in the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually. Gen 6:5-6

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I just never in my life, you are probably the only Protestant who claims she is the Queen of Heaven. Then I apologize.
Are there any Protestants here to debate what your own kind thinks about the Mother of Christ?

I, too, was a Protestant who believed Mary was the Queen of Heaven and prayed the Rosary, even while thinking, “I’m not about to become Catholic!”

 

[reteeks21]

I, too, was a Protestant who believed Mary was the Queen of Heaven and prayed the Rosary, even while thinking, “I’m not about to become Catholic!”

I like that phrase “your own kind”. What are we pagans forced to live on the outskirts of the city?
Protestants, I guess we have become racial and ethnic outcasts due to our beliefs now.

 

[guanophore]

Talk about your misconceptions. Protestants are not against Mary. How could we be if she is the mother of our Christ and Savior. What we are against is making her more important than her son.

And this is just. I can also see how it might appear to non-Catholics that she is made to be so. I think some Protestants also have a very narrow defintion and experience of prayer. This coupled with the lack of belief in the communion of saints is a major impediment.

One thing I have realized from this site is that very many like to throw around assumptions and accusations about one belief or another and very few actually set aside their differences to get to the bottom of the situation. While you personally may not feel as if you place Mary above Christ that is the appearance given to others that are not of the same religion.

Yes, I have observed this.

I understand that you are praying to her for her to go to Christ who then goes to God. What you need to explain to others is that the prayers to the saints are basically like the Lord’s prayer…words to use when you can’t find your own.

I don’t think that would be a most fitting explanation…The Rosary, for example, is taken primarily from scripture, and most of us have learned to pray with the scriptures. It does not mean we "can’t find words’ of our own. It is just that scriptural words seem better.

 

[Peter_J]

This is a good thing. Since your understanding of “the Catholic perspective” is a pack of lies, either misperceived by you, or communicated to you by those in service to the father of lies, it is a relief that you do not believe them.

Guanophore, where is your shame?

 

[RobHom]

I like that phrase “your own kind”. What are we pagans forced to live on the outskirts of the city?

reteeks21…my following comments are NOT aimed at you, but are in response to your comments in a friendly and generic way:

It would seem that “some” have actually grasped at that straw, thinking that it makes them more “worthy”… I have heard and seen where many have used the passage about being hated for being Christians… and seem to take great delight in being able to self-flog themselves with these mental barbs…

Protestants, I guess we have become racial and ethnic outcasts due to our beliefs now.

Here I will have to say: It is you as a “Protestant” who is using the word Protestant possibly wrongly…and lumping all non-Catholic Christians in the same heap. I only say this, because there are many protestants who do not ascribe to the same ideas of others.

I do think that “some” denominations have actual made themselves “separatists” from much of mainstream society by their actions…and yes, some would seem to be racially and ethnically driven. If this is happening, it is by their own design and desire. I won’t name any, but I think you as well as others can figure out who they are… Some of them are very scary… and I would go so far as to label some of them to be the American equivalent of the Taliban…

 

[reteeks21]

reteeks21…my following comments are NOT aimed at you, but are in response to your comments in a friendly and generic way:

It would seem that “some” have actually grasped at that straw, thinking that it makes them more “worthy”… I have heard and seen where many have used the passage about being hated for being Christians… and seem to take great delight in being able to self-flog themselves with these mental barbs…

Here I will have to say: It is you as a “Protestant” who is using the word Protestant possibly wrongly…and lumping all non-Catholic Christians in the same heap. I only say this, because there are many protestants who do not ascribe to the same ideas of others.

I do think that “some” denominations have actual made themselves “separatists” from much of mainstream society by their actions…and yes, some would seem to be racially and ethnically driven. If this is happening, it is by their own design and desire. I won’t name any, but I think you as well as others can figure out who they are… Some of them are very scary… and I would go so far as to label some of them to be the American equivalent of the Taliban…

I agree with you, but I am not sure if I am using it wrongly. If I am it is because many people lump us all together. I don’t see it like that at all (all us together), but it does happen, sadly. Those that use race, culture, or even politics to drive their agendas give all Christians a bad name. I’m not sure, though, how some of them compare to the Taliban. Could you elaborate, please.

 

[mmplps7783]

Since you want to use that example… Not to say that they forgot that they love them or that they don’t love them. Nor am I saying that the meaning of the words are lost, it has just become a habit. For example many people whenever they hang up the telephone with their spouse they automatically say “love you bye”. But it is the time when something happens or you are just sitting there with your spouse watching a movie and you think wow this is nice and you lean over and say “you know what? I love you” that is the difference that I am talking about. The words might not have changed but the feeling behind the words have. Once it becomes routine you don’t think about why, you just say it out of habit. Did I explain myself or do I need to approach it differently?

Everyone gave a good answer (I guess to my question about “empty headed prayers” except for one thing. You gave examples of three days…not three years. My above reply is what I was talking about.

 

[RobHom]

I agree with you, but I am not sure if I am using it wrongly. If I am it is because many people lump us all together. I don’t see it like that at all (all us together), but it does happen, sadly.

On that I agree. I think many people…and not just Catholics are unawares of the differences between the different denominations. Lumping all Protestants into one heap is not just wrong, but unfair as well… Not all of them share many of the ill conceived notions that some harbor.

Those that use race, culture, or even politics to drive their agendas give all Christians a bad name. I’m not sure, though, how some of them compare to the Taliban. Could you elaborate, please.

I agree on the first part of your statement above…

As to the “American Taliban”… I would rather you “google” or use any search engine on the web using those words as the search words… eliminate anything regarding “Lindh” (the kid caught in Afghanistan)…and read the other links to your hearts content.

I cannot post some of the links…because they would openly violate forum rules… But I’m sure you can find them.

 

[reteeks21]

On that I agree. I think many people…and not just Catholics are unawares of the differences between the different denominations. Lumping all Protestants into one heap is not just wrong, but unfair as well… Not all of them share many of the ill conceived notions that some harbor.

I agree on the first part of your statement above…

**As to the “American Taliban”… I would rather you “google” or use any search engine on the web using those words as the search words… eliminate anything regarding “Lindh” (the kid caught in Afghanistan)…and read the other links to your hearts content. **

I cannot post some of the links…because they would openly violate forum rules… But I’m sure you can find them.

Alrighty. When you said Taliban all I could think was murdering women who are suspected of adultery, talking to a man not that’s not her husband, or killing people of differing faiths. I just don’t see that happening around here. Am I wrong in how I thought you might have meant that?

 

[Thing]

Everyone gave a good answer (I guess to my question about “empty headed prayers” except for one thing. You gave examples of three days…not three years. My above reply is what I was talking about.

Same words, but not the same thoughts - no two thoughts are probably the same.
So one person might cast around every time every day for new sets of words.
Another says the same words with different ideas and insights flowing behind them.
Frankly, I’d rather let my mind wander and explore a new idea and just appreciate it for what it is than to struggle every-single-time to try to come up with a whole new bunch of words for it. Like I’m doing now.

 

[RobHom]

Alrighty. When you said Taliban all I could think was murdering women who are suspected of adultery, talking to a man not that’s not her husband, or killing people of differing faiths. I just don’t see that happening around here. Am I wrong in how I thought you might have meant that?

I don’t necessarily think you are wrong in thinking what you did… but I think you may have taken it a step or three too far.

I am referring to an “American Taliban” of very, very extremist people who want to invoke sharia like laws in this country based upon solely their “religious viewpoints”…and yes some of those viewpoints are far more radical and dangerous than you would imagine.

Keep in mind…no-one in Afghanistan could have ever saw coming what happened there, nor did the Germans pre 1933, or the Russians when the revolution there began, nor could the Cambodians ever have seen the outcome of the Khmer Rouge’s rule and the killing fields…

Years ago… I was at a “social gathering” and a sharp dressed man with a slick line and a commanding personality was playing to an audience…about what should and would one day happen in this country…this was almost 30 years ago…and sadly I have seen some of what he foretold come to pass. Its scary, and it was very seditious in nature. This man actually stood with people and discussed sedition and overthrow of the US Government in order to impose “their right to impose biblical standards” on the US.

Needless to say, I distanced myself as far as I could from those people in a hurry.

Interestingly enough…the “speaker” was later “indicted” for securities fraud and other crimes…

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann (to Cinette)
I am not outraged. I don’t really think you do understand my objections …I just don’t believe that the Catholic perspective is a valid one with regards to Mary.

This is a good thing. Since your understanding of “the Catholic perspective” is a pack of lies, either misperceived by you, or communicated to you by those in service to the father of lies, it is a relief that you do not believe them.

If you stay on CAF, and are open enough, you may come to understand that the lies you have been told should not be believed, but rather, what the Church truly teaches.

The ones that communicated to me their understanding of some of the teachings of their church are longtime Catholic adherents and members of the Catholic church, itself, - however you wouldn’t be aware of that…because as usual guanophore…you make false and incredible accusations and put your keyboard into action before your brain or manners.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4 View Post
The “Book” is all that we know of her. To go outside the “Book” is to speculate and build doctrines of men.
This is the case for you, ja4, because you have rejected the portion of divine revelation that is not confined to the book. You have aslo apparently erroneously convinced yourself that whatever you cannot find in it’s pages is “speculation and doctrines of men”. this is not the case.

guanophore
This is the case for you, ja4, because you have rejected the portion of divine revelation that is not confined to the book. You have aslo apparently erroneously convinced yourself that whatever you cannot find in it’s pages is “speculation and doctrines of men”. this is not the case.

I’m confused—:doh2: We know the Scriptures as divine revelation and now you say that divine revelation is not confined to a book. What specific divine revelations are you referring to? A couple of examples would help…

 

[onenow1]

Hi, All

=OneNow1, The words of inspred scripture below.

Mary is the model of charity.

1. Luke 1:45,
   “And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.”
   Because she believed,
   Blessed Mary is the model of faith.

John 2:3-4
"And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus said to him: They have no wine.

And Jesus said to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? My hour is not yet come."

The first impression that one may get from this verse, is that Jesus acted irreverently towards His mother by calling her ‘woman’.

This is not at all the case when Holy Scripture is taken in its full context.

He called her ‘woman’ to show us the connection between His mother and the ‘woman’ in the first book of the Bible (Genesis 3:15),

and later the ‘woman’ that He would address from the cross (John 19:26-27),

and to the ‘woman’ with the crown of twelve stars in the last book of the Bible (Revelation 12:1).

John 2:5,
"His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever He tells you.”
Those were the last words spoken by Blessed Mary in Holy Scripture.

This is her role today. She leads us to her Son and reminds us to, “Do whatever He tells you.”

Blessed Mary is the model of discipleship.Eve, the
O.T.“Type”…Mary, the N.T. “Antitype”
Created without original sin, Gen 2:22-25…Created without original sin, Luke 1:28,42 *1
There was a virgin, Gen 2:22-25…There is a virgin, Luke 1:27-34
There was a tree, Gen 2:16-17…There was a cross made from a tree, Matt 27:31-35
There was a fallen angel, Gen 3:1-13…There was a loyal angel, Luke 1:26-38
A satanic serpent tempted her, Gen 3:4-6…A satanic dragon threatened her, Rev 12:4-6,13-17
There was pride, Gen 3:4-7…There was humility, Luke 1:38
There was disobedience, Gen 3:4-7…There was obedience, Luke 1:38
There was a fall, Gen 3:16-20…There was redemption, John 19:34
Death came through Eve, Gen 3:17-19…Life Himself came through Mary, John 10:28
She was mentioned in Genesis 3:2-22…She was mentioned in Genesis 3:15
Could not approach the tree of life Gen 3:24…Approached the “Tree of Life”, John 19:25
An angel kept her out of Eden, Gen 3:24…An angel protected her, Rev 12:7-9
Prophecy of the coming of Christ, Gen 3:15…The Incarnation of Christ, Luke 2:7
Firstborn was a man child, Gen 4:1…Firstborn was a man child, Luke 2:7, Rev 12:5
Firstborn became a sinner, Gen 4:1-8…Firstborn was the Savior, Luke 2:34
The mother of all the living, Gen 3:20…The spiritual mother of all the living, John 19:27
Returned to dust, Gen 3:19…Taken to Heaven, Rev 11:19,12:1

1. Since Eve was created without original sin as well as Adam, then the realities of these Old Testament “types” had to be without original sin also. We know that Jesus had no original sin, and so Mary, the New Testament reality of Eve had to be without original sin also, or else she was inferior to her “type”.

thecatholictreasurechest.com/

Peace, OneNow1

 

[justasking4]

Hi, All

=OneNow1, The words of inspred scripture below.

Mary is the model of charity.

1. Luke 1:45,
   “And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.”
   Because she believed,
   Blessed Mary is the model of faith.

John 2:3-4
"And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus said to him: They have no wine.

And Jesus said to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? My hour is not yet come."

The first impression that one may get from this verse, is that Jesus acted irreverently towards His mother by calling her ‘woman’.

This is not at all the case when Holy Scripture is taken in its full context.

He called her ‘woman’ to show us the connection between His mother and the ‘woman’ in the first book of the Bible (Genesis 3:15),

and later the ‘woman’ that He would address from the cross (John 19:26-27),

and to the ‘woman’ with the crown of twelve stars in the last book of the Bible (Revelation 12:1).

John 2:5,
"His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever He tells you.”
Those were the last words spoken by Blessed Mary in Holy Scripture.

This is her role today. She leads us to her Son and reminds us to, “Do whatever He tells you.”

Blessed Mary is the model of discipleship.Eve, the
O.T.“Type”…Mary, the N.T. “Antitype”
Created without original sin, Gen 2:22-25…Created without original sin, Luke 1:28,42 *1
There was a virgin, Gen 2:22-25…There is a virgin, Luke 1:27-34
There was a tree, Gen 2:16-17…There was a cross made from a tree, Matt 27:31-35
There was a fallen angel, Gen 3:1-13…There was a loyal angel, Luke 1:26-38
A satanic serpent tempted her, Gen 3:4-6…A satanic dragon threatened her, Rev 12:4-6,13-17
There was pride, Gen 3:4-7…There was humility, Luke 1:38
There was disobedience, Gen 3:4-7…There was obedience, Luke 1:38
There was a fall, Gen 3:16-20…There was redemption, John 19:34
Death came through Eve, Gen 3:17-19…Life Himself came through Mary, John 10:28
She was mentioned in Genesis 3:2-22…She was mentioned in Genesis 3:15
Could not approach the tree of life Gen 3:24…Approached the “Tree of Life”, John 19:25
An angel kept her out of Eden, Gen 3:24…An angel protected her, Rev 12:7-9
Prophecy of the coming of Christ, Gen 3:15…The Incarnation of Christ, Luke 2:7
Firstborn was a man child, Gen 4:1…Firstborn was a man child, Luke 2:7, Rev 12:5
Firstborn became a sinner, Gen 4:1-8…Firstborn was the Savior, Luke 2:34
The mother of all the living, Gen 3:20…The spiritual mother of all the living, John 19:27
Returned to dust, Gen 3:19…Taken to Heaven, Rev 11:19,12:1

1. Since Eve was created without original sin as well as Adam, then the realities of these Old Testament “types” had to be without original sin also. We know that Jesus had no original sin, and so Mary, the New Testament reality of Eve had to be without original sin also, or else she was inferior to her “type”.

thecatholictreasurechest.com/

Peace, OneNow1

The problem with this is that Mary was conceived and born of 2 fallen human beings. Because of this she shares in the fall of Adam as all men do who are conceived of 2 human parents.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The problem with this is that Mary was conceived and born of 2 fallen human beings. Because of this she shares in the fall of Adam as all men do who are conceived of 2 human parents.

Yes. . .so Christ saved Mary ‘before’ her conception.

It’s not as though there was no precedent. God had created Eve from Adam–and created her without sin. Was it ‘impossible’ for God (who creates all) to ‘take Mary’ from her parents and create her without sin through the redemption of all humanity by her son? I don’t think so.