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Dorothy
Guest
Adam and Eve were real people. They succumbed to the temptation of Pride, wanting to be like God, knowing good and evil. We don’t know how long it took them to commit that sin.
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A
admonsta
Guest
I found my answer! I think I’ll have to ponder it for a while, but here’s what I found
catholicdoors.com/homilies/991208.htm
catholicdoors.com/homilies/991208.htm
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Waiting
Guest
We are all born with original sin. That stain is removed at Baptism, through the merits of Jesus’ passion and death, but we are still left with a leaning toward sin. Mary, too, needed to be saved from original sin, but her salvation came before her conception, not after, as the rest of us experienced. She is just as human as the rest of us, but was given the special graces needed to be the mother of God. God could not be conceived in a vessel stained with sin.
W
Waiting
Guest
Adam and Eve were real. It’s hard to say, not being there, just how quickly they were led to sin. They were inexperienced, of course, being the parents of the human race. There was no example set before them. They couldn’t have learned how to deal with temptation. God warned them, but the devil is very cunning, and it seems that our first parents were extremely gullible.
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nordskoven
Guest
The Holy Spirit can tolerate no sin. Abba can forgive sin against Abba; Jesus can forgive sin against Jesus. Sins against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven. The Virgin Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit, sharing spousal unity with divinity as we will share with Jesus when He returns for His Bride, the Church. The Blessed Virgin must have been created sinless through her Immaculate Conception; and remained sinless as the Immaculate Heart, perfect purity of intent to do God’s will alone. “God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart.” --Our Lady of the Rosary, Fatima, Portugal 1917
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jwinch2
Guest
amazon.com/Mary-Fathers-Church-Blessed-Patristic/dp/0898706866/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1347331066&sr=8-1&keywords=mary+and+the+church+fathers
One of the things which really helped me during my conversion was to see the manner in which we look to Mary today and then compare that with how the very first Christians thought about her. Once I was able to see the development of thought on Mary going all the way back to the early Church Fathers, the rest started to fall into place.
If you get the book I linked above, I think it will help you a great deal. It takes you step by step through the development of Christian thought on Mary with the Fathers of the Church. It has helped me a great deal.
Peace,
T
TimothyH
Guest
It’s not about refraining, or resisting, or sinning, but about trusting.
Adam and Eve didn’t trust God, didn’t trust that God was giving them everything they needed, thought he was holding something back, so they sinned.
Abraham was the first after Adam and Eve to trust God. Abraham is called the Father of Faith because he trusted that God would raise his son from the dead.
Mary trusted God.
let it be done to me according to thy word.
The entirety of salvation history is the story of God trying to get his people to trust him.
-Tim-
Z
zenith15
Guest
Interesting, Tim, thanks.
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Ryan_Collins
Guest
Oh my goodness! Thank you to all of your replies. I just got out of my Greek course (I’m in my last year of seminary) and this was a great surprise. I will personally respond to each of your replies and acknowledge (and thank you for) your time.
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Ryan_Collins
Guest
Thank you very much for the reply. I will get on this reading with enthusiasm. Like I said, this is not so much a disagreement but more of a “muddy” thought that I’m trying to clarify. I’m beginning to see myself much more Catholic than Protestant. I think this is what Catholics refer to as “coming home?” Not sure.
Thank you! I will check it out and will post an update after I read it and what I think.
Even as a Protestant I firmly agree with intercession of the saints and Mary (which is weird because many evangelical protestants are crazy against this). I think this is no different than me asking a friend, family member, or fellow brother/sister in Christ intercede for/with me. Yet, I believe it’s better to go to the Saints because they are more alive than we are here on Earth…much better seats in my opinion.
Wow. This is good. I like the divine Father/divine Mother idea. Mike, I like this post a lot and this helps. We see God work in the most insignificant in society, and Mary certainly would’ve been considered insignificant in that time. Yet if she was sinless, it would certainly be a God-given ability. And your point about her being responsible for murdering her own child is profound. I think we may have broken new ground!!!
I’m pleased when my parents are honored, so I assume Jesus is the same way! I most definitely honor Mary and her faithfulness, but I’m trying to undo 26 years of Protestantism (born and raised!). Thanks for the reply!
Glad to know that I am not alone at the pit stops along the road. I’m praying, I’m reading, I’m reconciling, I’m fighting, but I am deeply enjoying it. Thank you for the encouragement!keep learning, keep praying, you are in the exact boat I was once in, it comes with time blessings
Thanks for the reply and the link! Luckily for me, Scott Hahn’s book is available as an e-book through my Seminary’s library, so I’ll have to give it a read. Thanks again!I second Scott’s “Hail Holy Queen”. His book was a big help to my husband and I when we were wrestling with the same. Before we began to understand, I thought surely it would be a big mountain to climb over but it wasn’t at all. Even though we were still very much sola scriptura minded
The writings of Steve Ray helped us also. Here’s a huge pdf on the subject of Assumption and also about Queenship.
catholic-convert.com/wp-content/uploads/Documents/AssumptionAndQueen2.pdf
The real nitty gritty starts on page 8 right where it reads, “Part II. Is There Scriptural Precedent for the Assumption?” But the entire 30 pages is a great read.
Oddly enough, I’m fully on board with Mary’s perpetual virginity. In fact, I’m arguing this point in a paper for a New Testament course, writing on the nature of the familial (or lack thereof) relationship between Jesus and his “brothers.”
R
Ryan_Collins
Guest
Thank you for the reply. I will most definitely look at this book as I’m sure it will be exactly what I’m looking for. I value the Church Fathers a great deal, so this should “hit the spot.” I see you’re from Ft. Worth! On a side note, after I complete Seminary in May, my wife and I are hoping to be moving the family (God willing, of course) to Texas or the southeast. Is there a big Catholic presence down there? I hope this question is not too humorous considering the Catholic Church is everywhere. Haha.
K
kbf1970060
Guest
At a glance, I may have missed the mention of the following verses; although, mention may have been given to the content: Genesis 3:15. We have an interesting dialogue between God, and The Serpent, God says, to The Serpent, " … I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers … ". The Catholic Encyclopedia says, from The Vulgate, that the offspring of the woman, is Jesus. Jesus is Mary’s heel. The cause for this enmity, is found in Luke 1:28, and in The Rosary, " Hail Mary full of grace, … ". Mary being full of grace, excluded from Original Sin, causes enmity between Mary, and Satan. Satan’s victory against man, is Original Sin: the corruption of man’s soul, God’s victory against Satan, is the enmity between Satan and a woman, Mary, full of God’s grace, and the enmity between Satan’s progeny, and Jesus. There would appear to be little proof on the matter, however, it is an infallible teaching – Immaculate Mary – of the church, and seems only to be illustrated in scripture, and known through knowing Mary.
J
Jerry-Jet
Guest
Why was Mary Assumed bodily into heaven?
Probably for our own faith.
Many can believe that perfect Jesus who is God ascended into heaven in his glorified spiritual BODY.
Now how many people would believe that the BODIES of all of us who are indeed for eternity saved and would be reunited with our souls and would likewise enter heaven?
People don’t have a problem believing in the spiritual–people DO have a problem believing in bones that will rise–but we have Lazarus as an example of a body that can come back to life again but Jesus was raised with a GLORIFIED Body.
Who other than Jesus would be raised with such a GLORIFIED body BEFORE the end of the world?
Mary!
Psalms 132:8 is scriptural proof positive for the Assumption of Mary–“Arise O Lord to thy resting place, thou and the Ark of thy strength”.
The only thing that could ENCLOSE Jesus The Lord like an Ark–that would indeed encradle His strength is his mother Mary!
Mary ascends by His OWN power–Mary is assumed not by her own power but by God’s power!
See the same way that Mary is taken up ib her GLORIFIED BODY–that is the same thing that will happen to us at the end of time when our perfected souls in heaven are reunited with our bones in graves over the entire world–don’t worry that there may not be hardly any remains left–God can create the universe–He can also reunited our spirits with those long dead bodies and give them glory like Jesus had after he arose from the dead!
Just like Jesus went–so went Mary!
He is the first fruits! Mary is the first of all of us who come AFTER the Lord Jesus!
Jesus was perfect so he wasn’t subject to death and decay–He was Son of God by nature–Mary was Daughter of God by adoption–she was Queen of heaven because she was the King’s mother–just like Bathsheebas was mother of Solomon.
Bathsheeba interceeded with Solomon but Mary interceeding with Jesus is much much greater than Bathsheeba and Solomon.
Eve brought sin into the world–Mary the second Eve brings life into the world through her son Jesus–the second Adam!
What Adam and Eve messed up–Jesus makes right–and He makes right through Mary!
Always remember Colossians 1:24–"I rejoice now in the sufferings I bear for your sake; and what is lacking of the sufferings of Christ I fill up in my flesh for his body which is the church.
Jesus’ sufferings are not lacking–what is meant here is that jesus gives us the great priviledge of SHARING in his redeeming work
We share in Christ’s redeeming work when we share the gosple with others.
Mary shares in christ’s redeeming work in the most excellent way par excellance because of her sinlessness.
And don’t freak out that she was sinless–she was sinless because God granted her the grace to be sinless–Mary need a savior and that savior was Jesus–she was just saved FROM sin instead of after sin.
It was most fitting that it be that way because Jesus was the perfect sacrifice and had to inherit his perfect humanity from Mary–so her humanity had to be perfect.
Now COULD God have done it differently? Yes God COULD but evidently while it was not NECESSARY that He only do it in that way–in God’s judgement doing it that way was PERFECTLY in concert with his will and purposes.
And if you have a hard time wrapping your mind around an ordinary human like Mary being perfect–I have a hard time relating to how it must have felt to BE Adam or Eve before the Fall and jesus being True God and True Man–who could ever fully understand that mystery?
Asking Mary to pray for us does not take away from Jesus–it GLORIFIES Jesus!
Mary’s perfection isn’t about Mary–it’s about Jesus!
Love Mary for she is indeed Our blessed mother–she will lead you to Jesus!
Thanks be to God!
Probably for our own faith.
Many can believe that perfect Jesus who is God ascended into heaven in his glorified spiritual BODY.
Now how many people would believe that the BODIES of all of us who are indeed for eternity saved and would be reunited with our souls and would likewise enter heaven?
People don’t have a problem believing in the spiritual–people DO have a problem believing in bones that will rise–but we have Lazarus as an example of a body that can come back to life again but Jesus was raised with a GLORIFIED Body.
Who other than Jesus would be raised with such a GLORIFIED body BEFORE the end of the world?
Mary!
Psalms 132:8 is scriptural proof positive for the Assumption of Mary–“Arise O Lord to thy resting place, thou and the Ark of thy strength”.
The only thing that could ENCLOSE Jesus The Lord like an Ark–that would indeed encradle His strength is his mother Mary!
Mary ascends by His OWN power–Mary is assumed not by her own power but by God’s power!
See the same way that Mary is taken up ib her GLORIFIED BODY–that is the same thing that will happen to us at the end of time when our perfected souls in heaven are reunited with our bones in graves over the entire world–don’t worry that there may not be hardly any remains left–God can create the universe–He can also reunited our spirits with those long dead bodies and give them glory like Jesus had after he arose from the dead!
Just like Jesus went–so went Mary!
He is the first fruits! Mary is the first of all of us who come AFTER the Lord Jesus!
Jesus was perfect so he wasn’t subject to death and decay–He was Son of God by nature–Mary was Daughter of God by adoption–she was Queen of heaven because she was the King’s mother–just like Bathsheebas was mother of Solomon.
Bathsheeba interceeded with Solomon but Mary interceeding with Jesus is much much greater than Bathsheeba and Solomon.
Eve brought sin into the world–Mary the second Eve brings life into the world through her son Jesus–the second Adam!
What Adam and Eve messed up–Jesus makes right–and He makes right through Mary!
Always remember Colossians 1:24–"I rejoice now in the sufferings I bear for your sake; and what is lacking of the sufferings of Christ I fill up in my flesh for his body which is the church.
Jesus’ sufferings are not lacking–what is meant here is that jesus gives us the great priviledge of SHARING in his redeeming work
We share in Christ’s redeeming work when we share the gosple with others.
Mary shares in christ’s redeeming work in the most excellent way par excellance because of her sinlessness.
And don’t freak out that she was sinless–she was sinless because God granted her the grace to be sinless–Mary need a savior and that savior was Jesus–she was just saved FROM sin instead of after sin.
It was most fitting that it be that way because Jesus was the perfect sacrifice and had to inherit his perfect humanity from Mary–so her humanity had to be perfect.
Now COULD God have done it differently? Yes God COULD but evidently while it was not NECESSARY that He only do it in that way–in God’s judgement doing it that way was PERFECTLY in concert with his will and purposes.
And if you have a hard time wrapping your mind around an ordinary human like Mary being perfect–I have a hard time relating to how it must have felt to BE Adam or Eve before the Fall and jesus being True God and True Man–who could ever fully understand that mystery?
Asking Mary to pray for us does not take away from Jesus–it GLORIFIES Jesus!
Mary’s perfection isn’t about Mary–it’s about Jesus!
Love Mary for she is indeed Our blessed mother–she will lead you to Jesus!
Thanks be to God!
K
kbf1970060
Guest
I have a strong background both among Fundamentalists, and Protestant, in some respects. The Church itself is deeply imbued with Protestantism. This is deeply reflected in extant translations of scripture, today. It brings the task of Mary’s Assumption into a category of difficulty, which may not have been even remotely experienced by The Apostles, at the time of Mary’s death, but I could be very wrong about this.
The Assumption is an historical event. The Catholic Encyclopedia says, The Assumption is a conclusion drawn by The Apostle’s, when her body was not found in the sarcophagus, but you probably already know this. I suppose, that I do not understand the difficulty you have with The Assumption, but I think, that from The Apostle’s point of view, it was very clear: her body is to be in this sarcophagus. It is gone. We know Mary: the mother of our Lord, and therefore, we can assume – very easily – she is raised into heaven, by God.
Protestants have removed much of God’s greatness from their Bibles, first relegating such books into an appendix, then removing them altogether. I have come across more than one Fundamentalist minister, youth, and other to include Protestant pastors, that have little or no problem with removing Revelation, The Apocolypse, from The New Testament. It becomes a difficult task to accept God, The Father, and scriptures inspired by God, The Holy Ghost, when much of scripture is reduced to the mediocrity of our humanity. God is great. We would be as well were we to live – as Mother Teresa has said, we ought to do – to live as God lives. But since I am in the habit of assuming much, I have no real difficulty with it, but you: you work with youth. Assuming too much in your occupation, it would be a great burden: I imagine.
The site of Mary’s sarcophagus was not found with her body after three days, but her sarcophagus remained unknown in Jerusalem, more than a few centuries. We know much about it, through apocryphal writings.I am very unfamiliar with many apocryphal writings, but some of them, were among the most popular writings of The Old Testament, only a few years before Jesus’ birth.
I like The Assumption, now, after having gone through some of these posts, because it is such a mystery completely left to human reason – rather than faith – I have no need of faith on the matter, only an assumption is needed. I find a bit of simple pleasure in this, because were I to be faced with an empty tomb, belonging to Jesus, and forced to assume, that he was taken up into heaven, well then, what of my faith, could persist without The Ressurrection? Yet given too many mysteries so poorly rooted in an ability to reason, it is a great relief, that I assume her to be so, and it is one of the last, “articles”, I believe is a good word of The Apostle’s Creed, I believe … in the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. And as these articles go: consider the – I believe … in the communion of saints, … – the communion of saints, as a belief it might well further our ability to know such things. Yet, without communion, The Eucharist, then what communion of saints, is there, that we might enjoy?
M
Miriam1947
Guest
J
jwinch2
Guest
Hi Ryan,
The diocese of Fort Worth is quite large and encompasses much of north Texas, even outside of the metro. Our Bishop, Kevin Vann, seems to be very solid. Then you have the diocese of Dallas right next door which is also very large. There is a strong Catholic presence in Texas in general, particularly with the Hispanic population but also just historically. Much of this area was originally settled by Catholics and there were many missionaries of various religious orders, but primarily Franciscan, who came along with them.
As for the book, I think you will enjoy it and I highly recommend it. What is nice is that it take you step by step through the development of Marian thought in the first 8 centuries of the Church. At each step, it provides quotes from various Church Fathers depicting the status of thought at that exact time. It allows one to see how each stage of development was built upon the writings of the past and thus, was not contrived, but quite organic in its nature. As a result, where we were at by the end of the Patristic age showed a solid link to where we were at in the first century.
Peace,
A
Actaeon
Guest
Hi Ryan, sorry I’m so late in coming to the discussion!
For biblical reference on the assumption of Mary, we have to look no further than Revelation 12, wherein the woman described bodily in heaven is Mary, and she is rather unique in her position as such. While others are described as being in heaven, none is PHYSICALLY described as having a head, hands, and feet. That is because prior to the universal judgement, we only have spiritual presences in heaven… it is only after the resurrection of the dead that we will be rejoined with our bodies… but not so for Mary, who was bodily assumed into heaven and therefore described in Revelation as bodily being in heaven.
As to her sinlessness, one might look to her prefigurement in the old covenant… in Catholic belief, we hold that the new covenant is the fulfillment of the old covenant, and that those things which were sacred and holy in the old covenant are prefigurements of their perfected versions in the new covenant (hence, Christ is the returning Elijah of the old covenant… Mary is the new Eve, Peter is the new steward of the Kingdom of Christ, etc).
If we look at the strict building instructions of the tabernacle, which was Mary’s womb, and of the temple and the ark itself, these things were to be composed of materiels which were regarded culturally as being “without corruption”… and here is an important point: Mary is the perfect embodiment of these things in the new covenant… her body was the temple, her womb the tabernacle… and likewise was she subject to the requirement that she be without corruption in order to be an appropriate resting place of Christ, the High Priest and Sacrificial lamb… thus God preemptively redeemed her such that she could be immaculately conceived and sinless throughout her life… otherwise she would have been an unworthy vessel of the Sacrificial Lamb… a vessel without which there could be NO passover sacrifice (thus rendering Christ’s act sacriligious). The temple is SO important to the jews that without it over the last couple of millenia, there is no passover gathering in Jerusalem which meets the prescriptions of the scripture… so it is impossible to think that Jesus could have fulfilled the old covenant by doing anything other than it establishes as the law of God, laws which require a tabernacle and temple. While we know that Jesus never reposed in the Temple of Jerusalem or physically entered it’s holy of holies before His Death, we DO know that this requirement of God was met by His repose in the Tabernacle that was Mary’s womb…
J
Julia_Mae
Guest
The Catechism says it this way:
Apparently we get to choose how much is figurative. I agree with your sentence above.
L
LorenC
Guest
That was awesome!!
M
Miriam1947
Guest
Glad you liked it!
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