I'm in the Process of Converting, But I Need Help

[JoeDoe52]

Hi, everybody! I’ve been following some of the discussions on this forum for a while now, and thought it was finally time to make a post of my own.To be honest, I’m a little nervous about doing this – I tend to avoid confrontation (even on the Internet), so for everyone reading this I just ask that you keep in mind that I am writing out of sincere inquiry and not to start a debate- Heaven knows there are enough of those floating around, even on this very forum.

So this is my situation. I’m in my mid 20’s, having been raised in the United Methodist Church; I joined the Episcopal Church during college. I’m currently going through RCIA in order to become Catholic. I enjoy going to Mass, and honestly desire to have Christ in my life. I love the Church (by which I now mean the Roman Catholic Church) and in my line of work have been able to see firsthand God’s work done overseas by Catholic missionaries.
My fiancée is Catholic; however, I want to be very clear (because I can see the question/comment coming): I do not want to convert because of her. Certainly, us both being Catholic will put us on a much better page when we have children; however, I am converting based on a personal faith decision.

So what’s the problem, you may ask? Well, to be quite frank with you, there a few Church teachings which I struggle with considerably. They aren’t really theological issues - the Eucharist, confession, intercession of the saints; these things I don’t have a roadblock with, though I certainly could always learn more about them. What I wrestle with is some aspects of moral theology, and I’m trying to discern whether that is reason enough for me not to convert. I suppose I am really hung up over three things:

First is the abortion issue. Though I would consider myself “pro-life”, I have a fairly strong conviction that it is immoral to outlaw abortion for cases of rape or incest. I am aware that makes me “pro-choice” to likely the majority of the people on this forum. I respect those of you who would wish to see Roe v. Wade overturned and abortion made illegal across the board; that is not, however, a view that I personally share.Where all of this really matters for me is politically. While I would never vote for a candidate BECAUSE of his or her pro-choice stance, I have encountered times when a pro-choice politician espouses views that on the whole seem much more in line with what Christ taught us than those of his or her pro-life opponent. I understand that many of you believe that the “life-issue” should trump all others when it comes time to vote, and that it is immoral to vote for a pro-choice candidate when there is a pro-life option. Once again, those are opinions which I respect but do not share.

Second is contraception. My fiancée and I have gone through NFP classes and have been educated quite extensively on why the Church condemns artificial contraception as evil. To save some space here, we have both decided that we are capable of having a sexual dimension of our marriage which is loving, respectful, and open to children – while also incorporating condoms. And yes, I have read Humanae Vitea, which I say not to be snotty but because that’s usually the first question I’m asked whenever I bring this up with orthodox Catholics. (As a side note – I think it is a beautiful encyclical, even if I struggle with the idea of contraception being intrinsically evil)

Finally - and this affects me the least directly – I am of the opinion that homosexual couples should be permitted to enter into civil unions that afford them the same legal rights at heterosexual couples. When it comes to gay marriage, I ascribe to the belief that marriage is a sacrament reserved to the Church and that government should have no place in it. I understand concerns about “redefining marriage” – however, when it comes to civil unions at least, I don’t feel comfortable voting to deny things such as tax breaks and hospital visitation rights to gay couples. In fact, I would feel the need to go to confession IF I did so.

The point of all of this is, once again, not to start a fight. I’m not here to convince anyone of the “correctness” of my views or convictions. I am well aware that these beliefs are, to the best of my knowledge, all in opposition to official Church teaching. So here is my dilemma: I have been told before (albeit by some very, very conservative lay Catholics) that if these are my beliefs I should stay away from the Church. They say that while there people within the Church who have such views, such as liberal Jesuits and the LCWR, these are the “cafeteria” elements within Catholicism which are tearing it apart with their heterodoxy. If I am not willing to accept EVERY Church teaching as ultimate Truth, they say, I have no business being confirmed and would actually be a detriment to the Catholic Faith.On the other hand, I have been encouraged by other (albeit more moderate Catholics) that these are hard issues I’m dealing with and that it’s better that I wrestle with them within the walls of the Church than outside of them. I obviously have an affinity for this opinion.

If I wanted, I could write three times as much as I have already written over why I accept wholeheartedly the rest of the Church’s teachings (which I won’t do since this is already quite long). I honestly want to be confirmed, married, and buried within the auspices of the Church. I’m willing to say that someday I may change my mind and become in line with what the Magisterium teaches on these issues, but that isn’t something that will happen anytime soon, if it ever happens at all.

So, ultimately, the question I pose for you all is: am I doing the wrong thing by converting? And if so, and I decide not to, what then? I really don’t want to go back to the Episcopal Church or any other for that matter. Once again, please keep your comments charitable – this is very personal issue for me. Thank you for your responses, and God Bless.

 

[Edward_H]

First is the abortion issue. Though I would consider myself “pro-life”, I have a fairly strong conviction that it is immoral to outlaw abortion for cases of rape or incest. I am aware that makes me “pro-choice” to likely the majority of the people on this forum. I respect those of you who would wish to see Roe v. Wade overturned and abortion made illegal across the board; that is not, however, a view that I personally share.Where all of this really matters for me is politically. While I would never vote for a candidate BECAUSE of his or her pro-choice stance, I have encountered times when a pro-choice politician espouses views that on the whole seem much more in line with what Christ taught us than those of his or her pro-life opponent. I understand that many of you believe that the “life-issue” should trump all others when it comes time to vote, and that it is immoral to vote for a pro-choice candidate when there is a pro-life option. Once again, those are opinions which I respect but do not share.

Joe, welcome to Catholic.com. I am glad you are pursuing your questions in earnest, and I wish you the best in your marriage and in RCIA.

I’ll try to respond to you In chunks (one point at a time), and we will likely have others join us quickly. First there are a lot of well developed and substantiated articles on this site…so feel free to look beyond the forums for these resources.

On the immorality of Abortion in the case of rape or incest. The beginning point for me on this point was the realization that the child is willed by God…his permissive will. He allowed life to begin. So who are we to insert our will over His? Otherwise, we are saying “it was not our intent to create life, so let’s stop it”. No. That child has been given a unique and complete genetic identity by God. He would rather that we had cooperated differently in how we procreated (He creates, we procreate), but He can still draw great love from this circumstance, especially with heroic cooperation on the part of the mother and others that He will put in the path of his dear child. God can draw great good out of evil acts. Just look at the Crucifixion.

The child is a child at the moment of conception; a wholly unique and totally complete identity already exists. So whether it was the result of rape or incest, or whether it was intended by us or not, doesn’t change the REALITY that the child already exists in God’s mind and will.

Killing the child of course won’t correct an evil act; it only leads to more evil. That child will never be able to love God. Who are we to stop someone from loving God? God sees great, eternally good possibilities for that child and others in that child’s life. We are frustrating God’s love.

Does that begin to answer your first question?

 

[Jimdandy]

Give yourself time to learn about the Catholic Church, all she believes and why she believes-and allow the Holy Spirit to enlighten your mind and heart. Spend many hours in front of the Blessed Sacrament, read and reflect on the Bible daily, and ask for Our Mother Mary’s protection.

Ditch the condom idea-not worth losing the Presence of God in your soul.

 

[Edward_H]

Second is contraception. My fiancée and I have gone through NFP classes and have been educated quite extensively on why the Church condemns artificial contraception as evil. To save some space here, we have both decided that we are capable of having a sexual dimension of our marriage which is loving, respectful, and open to children – while also incorporating condoms. And yes, I have read Humanae Vitea, which I say not to be snotty but because that’s usually the first question I’m asked whenever I bring this up with orthodox Catholics. (As a side note – I think it is a beautiful encyclical, even if I struggle with the idea of contraception being intrinsically evil)

There are 2 mutually reinforcing purposes to marital intercourse: unitive and procreative. They cannot be separated. They are not ours to pick and choose from. If we accept one gift we accept the other. The marital act is sacramental, it is an offering of self to God and our spouse. Our whole self…our will, our body, and all of our fruits. We must accept the other person, our spouse with all their defects and gifts (including their fecundity). Otherwise you’re picking around God’s gift.

Intercourse should be a renewal of your marital bonds, a total self-donation for the eternal good of the other. Sex is not this reciprocal pursuit of pleasure, but instead a total gift of self to the other for the love of God. Viewed this way, and lived this way, marital intercourse will take the couple to far higher ecstasy than…I got mine you get your reciprocity. Sex is a foretaste of the unity and joy we will experience in heaven. In such total abandonment to their other, with God…for God…there is no room or need for a condom.

A condom is telling God that we know how to have marital union better than He designed it!

 

[Allegra]

I think in order to join the Church, you have to accept these teachings, even if you have doubts about them. What I mean by that is that you must agree to live by the teachings of the Church, not attempt to corrupt others into going against the teachings, and continue in good faith to try and understand why God wants us to live that way. If you can do that, then your doubts about these teachings are not going to inhibit you from being Catholic.

In regards to abortion, I can never understand the argument that it’s okay to kill a baby because his father was a rapist or related to his mother. How would you feel if your parents’ relationship was incestous and you were told that your life was worth less than that of other children? What possible evidence could lead someone to such a conclusion? Even if every child that was ever concieved from such a union was disabled, (which isn’t the case. Most children born from one generation of incest turn out to be physically healthy) what right does anyone have to say that child is not worthy of living just because they are disabled? I find the argument disgusting, actually. If that’s the case, why not justify the systematic murder of blind children, deaf children, and children with cleft pallets? By the same token, what makes the child of a rapist deserving of death? I had a coworker who was seperated from the physically abusive father of her two children for three years. When this evil individual found out where she lived, he went to her house and raped her. Is she now entitled to murder her two children so she doesn’t have to “raise a rapists’ child?” How would you feel about her if she decided to give her children up for adoption because she didn’t want to raise them anymore? Most people would think she was either a horrible person herself or making an extreme mistake based on a traumatic experience. Of course, my coworker didn’t do that and she she never would have, but I hope people can see my point. We don’t want abortion illegal so that we can punish sexually immoral women, we want it illegal because it is the murder of a innocent child!

Finally, if you have already gone through Humane Vitae, you might want to read some lighter material on the subject, that might make it easier for you to understand. I highly recommend, “Holy Sex”, which explains the benefits of following the teachings of the Church in a very practical manner.

 

[Edward_H]

Finally - and this affects me the least directly – I am of the opinion that homosexual couples should be permitted to enter into civil unions that afford them the same legal rights at heterosexual couples. When it comes to gay marriage, I ascribe to the belief that marriage is a sacrament reserved to the Church and that government should have no place in it. I understand concerns about “redefining marriage” – however, when it comes to civil unions at least, I don’t feel comfortable voting to deny things such as tax breaks and hospital visitation rights to gay couples. In fact, I would feel the need to go to confession IF I did so.

Approving of civil unions for such couplings would not be pursuing their greatest good. Their greatest good is Beatitude, total union with God, not just in the hereafter, but here and now, and tomorrow. The criteria is the pursuit of the good of all. Coupling against the design of our bodies, pursuing our will over God’s will, pursuing temporary pleasure rather than trying to please God is not pursuing the great good.

A married heterosexual couple who views sex as mere cooperative pleasuring also has a defective and a morally incorrect understanding of the marital act. Here their act may not be immoral, but their intent is not pure.

 

[Edward_H]

So, ultimately, the question I pose for you all is: am I doing the wrong thing by converting? And if so, and I decide not to, what then? I really don’t want to go back to the Episcopal Church or any other for that matter. Once again, please keep your comments charitable – this is very personal issue for me. Thank you for your responses, and God Bless.

No. Have faith and pursue the truth, the full truth with God. Be prepared to offer Him everything, even your intellectual comforts and your doubts, ask the Holy Spirit for wisdom and fortitude. Give the Father your hand, often. Tell Him “I don’t now believe everything fully…teach me more”. Pray and converse daily with Him about your progress and remaining doubts.

 

[sacred_words]

For starters, welcome home, from another fellow (soon to be) convert.

Second of all, keep in mind that the Catholic Church isn’t deliberately out to rain on anyone’s parade. There’s a reason behind church teachings, and once you understand why it’s this way, it all might fall into place for you.

Thirdly, abortion solves nothing in the scheme of things. Those who push abortion claim it helps women (to name one of their reasons), but they don’t see the big picture, instead they focus on the here and now. While the here and now is important, there are real solutions out there to help with crisis pregnancies. Abortion isn’t one of them. Think about it. Abortion doesn’t help anyone out of poverty, it doesn’t change an already unhealthy relationship or an already abusive home life, it won’t fix a rotten job environment and it doesn’t help victims of sexual assault. Any child conceived in rape is just as much a victim as his or her mother.

If you’ve got the time, check out Live Action’s website, along with the Priests for Life site. Silent No More and Secular Pro-Life both have really good information as well.

 

[bzkoss236]

First is the abortion issue. Though I would consider myself “pro-life”, I have a fairly strong conviction that it is immoral to outlaw abortion for cases of rape or incest. I am aware that makes me “pro-choice” to likely the majority of the people on this forum. I respect those of you who would wish to see Roe v. Wade overturned and abortion made illegal across the board; that is not, however, a view that I personally share.Where all of this really matters for me is politically. While I would never vote for a candidate BECAUSE of his or her pro-choice stance, I have encountered times when a pro-choice politician espouses views that on the whole seem much more in line with what Christ taught us than those of his or her pro-life opponent. I understand that many of you believe that the “life-issue” should trump all others when it comes time to vote, and that it is immoral to vote for a pro-choice candidate when there is a pro-life option. Once again, those are opinions which I respect but do not share.

My view is that the baby is still innocent of any wrong doing and so it would be immoral to punish the child for something someone else did. I can understand that the woman may not be able to financially take care of the child, but I still see it immoral to kill an innocent child based on bad circumstances. We don’t go off an kill our parents when they need to be taken care of and we don’t have the capacity to do so. No, we work hard to find them some place where they can be taken care of or find someone else who can take care of them. Thus, in situations of rape or incest, giving the baby up for adoption would be more moral in my view. And I’m sure others share this. This is my viewpoint even apart from the Church. There is never any circumstances in which the killing of an innocent is okay.

Second is contraception. My fiancée and I have gone through NFP classes and have been educated quite extensively on why the Church condemns artificial contraception as evil. To save some space here, we have both decided that we are capable of having a sexual dimension of our marriage which is loving, respectful, and open to children – while also incorporating condoms. And yes, I have read Humanae Vitea, which I say not to be snotty but because that’s usually the first question I’m asked whenever I bring this up with orthodox Catholics. (As a side note – I think it is a beautiful encyclical, even if I struggle with the idea of contraception being intrinsically evil)

Again, my personal opinion, but as a guy, even though wearing a condom might “feel” like you’re not wearing one, the fact is that you are. And I feel that separation distance would separate me from my spouse. The Church’s view go further in explaining how the use of contraceptives separates married couples by not allowing them to FULLY give of themselves to their spouse to truly be ONE FLESH. I have been learning more and more about NFP and realize just how effective it can be, and in the event that it doesn’t work as intended, then that is God saying he has other plans for you. The thing we need to remember as Christians is to not put ourselves before God, and when we make the effort to keep God from ruining our plans, we are then sinning. God’s opinion is more important than ours, hence why we should give up our lives and take up our crosses as God sees fit.

Finally - and this affects me the least directly – I am of the opinion that homosexual couples should be permitted to enter into civil unions that afford them the same legal rights at heterosexual couples. When it comes to gay marriage, I ascribe to the belief that marriage is a sacrament reserved to the Church and that government should have no place in it. I understand concerns about “redefining marriage” – however, when it comes to civil unions at least, I don’t feel comfortable voting to deny things such as tax breaks and hospital visitation rights to gay couples. In fact, I would feel the need to go to confession IF I did so.

I know you are talking about civil unions, but many in the LGBT community have come out and said that the current laws in place for a civil union aren’t enough. They want full recognition and acceptance as a “married” couple and everything that comes with it that the government gives. And as much as people in the LGBT community want to tell us that this won’t start a cascade of acceptance seekers from the other various disturbing sexual opinions (like pedophiles and zoophiles), it has started and it will happen if same-sex “marriage” are accepted. And, if they get their way, marriage will come mean absolutely nothing for the secular world except for a way to get tax breaks.

One thing people fail to realize is that aside from the religious beliefs towards marriage, there is a large sociological part of it as well that goes together with the religious (and even stands alone for those who are not religious). To put it in a blunt, crude way, marriage in a social aspect, is supposed to be somewhat of a license to have intercourse. Just like you need a license to drive a car. This license says that you are willing to start and raise a family to be good citizens who abide by the law. Think how many less problems we’d have in regard to abortions if sex was strictly for those who are married, because that is how it is supposed to be. And if you look at it from that perspective you can see why marriage, and anything like marriage, is to be between a man and a woman.

Also, marriage isn’t a right, it is a privilege. And just like someone who misuses a car (driving recklessly, not abiding by the laws, etc.), you lose that privilege. Our country is losing its knowledge of what is a right and what is a privilege. Everything is becoming, “I have the right to do this, because this is a free and equal country”. The idea of equality is skewed as well. People are viewing equality based on groups instead of individuals. People believe that we have the right of happiness, but they are wrong, we have the right to pursue happiness. I don’t have the right to have a huge big screen HDTV if that was the only thing that made me happy. If we do have the right to obtain happiness, then where’s my free TV? However, I do have the right to try my best, with my own abilities, with my own money, to obtain that TV.

This last issue is a really sticky one, for me too as I do have some friends who are gay. But I have my devotion to the Church, and as such, I will do my best to abide by its teachings because I believe that the Holy Spirit guides the laws of the Church into making the decisions they make. Society is devolving on a large scale, becoming barbaric and senseless, and I look to the Church founded by Christ to keep me in check and on the right side.

 

[fastenatingguy]

What wonderful responses. I regret that I have nothing of substance to add but encouragment.

I would urge you to continue with RCIA and becoming a Catholic. Print out this thread and keep it handy. These are sincere people who only want you to be right with God and His Church.

Remember that your goal is to be perfect as Christ, but we all sin and need forgiveness through reconciliation. Work it out.

 

[JRKH]

Hi, everybody! I’ve been following some of the discussions on this forum for a while now, and thought it was finally time to make a post of my own.To be honest, I’m a little nervous about doing this – I tend to avoid confrontation (even on the Internet), so for everyone reading this I just ask that you keep in mind that I am writing out of sincere inquiry and not to start a debate- Heaven knows there are enough of those floating around, even on this very forum.

So this is my situation. I’m in my mid 20’s, having been raised in the United Methodist Church; I joined the Episcopal Church during college. I’m currently going through RCIA in order to become Catholic. I enjoy going to Mass, and honestly desire to have Christ in my life. I love the Church (by which I now mean the Roman Catholic Church) and in my line of work have been able to see firsthand God’s work done overseas by Catholic missionaries.
My fiancée is Catholic; however, I want to be very clear (because I can see the question/comment coming): I do not want to convert because of her. Certainly, us both being Catholic will put us on a much better page when we have children; however, I am converting based on a personal faith decision.

Welcome…

So what’s the problem, you may ask? Well, to be quite frank with you, there a few Church teachings which I struggle with considerably. They aren’t really theological issues - the Eucharist, confession, intercession of the saints; these things I don’t have a roadblock with, though I certainly could always learn more about them. What I wrestle with is some aspects of moral theology, and I’m trying to discern whether that is reason enough for me not to convert. I suppose I am really hung up over three things:

We all struggle with things from time to time…Nobody said being Catholic is easy…If it was everybody would want to join…

First is the abortion issue. Though I would consider myself “pro-life”, I have a fairly strong conviction that it is immoral to outlaw abortion for cases of rape or incest. I am aware that makes me “pro-choice” to likely the majority of the people on this forum. I respect those of you who would wish to see Roe v. Wade overturned and abortion made illegal across the board; that is not, however, a view that I personally share.Where all of this really matters for me is politically. While I would never vote for a candidate BECAUSE of his or her pro-choice stance, I have encountered times when a pro-choice politician espouses views that on the whole seem much more in line with what Christ taught us than those of his or her pro-life opponent. I understand that many of you believe that the “life-issue” should trump all others when it comes time to vote, and that it is immoral to vote for a pro-choice candidate when there is a pro-life option. Once again, those are opinions which I respect but do not share.

I will not speak to the political issue but limit myself to the abortion issue…When people play the “rape and incest” card…I simply respond that:
I would support abortion in any case where the child is guilty of a Capital Crime for which the Law prescribes the death penalty.

Second is contraception. My fiancée and I have gone through NFP classes and have been educated quite extensively on why the Church condemns artificial contraception as evil. To save some space here, we have both decided that we are capable of having a sexual dimension of our marriage which is loving, respectful, and open to children – while also incorporating condoms. And yes, I have read Humanae Vitea, which I say not to be snotty but because that’s usually the first question I’m asked whenever I bring this up with orthodox Catholics. (As a side note – I think it is a beautiful encyclical, even if I struggle with the idea of contraception being intrinsically evil)

This is something that you need to really talk over with your priest…

Finally - and this affects me the least directly – I am of the opinion that homosexual couples should be permitted to enter into civil unions that afford them the same legal rights at heterosexual couples. When it comes to gay marriage, I ascribe to the belief that marriage is a sacrament reserved to the Church and that government should have no place in it. I understand concerns about “redefining marriage” – however, when it comes to civil unions at least, I don’t feel comfortable voting to deny things such as tax breaks and hospital visitation rights to gay couples. In fact, I would feel the need to go to confession IF I did so.

I must admit that I have some trouble with this issue myself at least from the standpoint of being “publicly” opposed…(marching and such)…I do not believe in “Gay marriage” or in adoption by gay couples and would vote against same anytime it comes up. However - and I believe that a Bishop even addressed this a while back…Part of the problem is a matter of semantics. A “Civil union” between two gay people for (mainly) financial reasons might not be a problem for the Church. But to call it marriage…that is a problem…

The point of all of this is, once again, not to start a fight. I’m not here to convince anyone of the “correctness” of my views or convictions. I am well aware that these beliefs are, to the best of my knowledge, all in opposition to official Church teaching. So here is my dilemma: I have been told before (albeit by some very, very conservative lay Catholics) that if these are my beliefs I should stay away from the Church. They say that while there people within the Church who have such views, such as liberal Jesuits and the LCWR, these are the “cafeteria” elements within Catholicism which are tearing it apart with their heterodoxy. If I am not willing to accept EVERY Church teaching as ultimate Truth, they say, I have no business being confirmed and would actually be a detriment to the Catholic Faith.On the other hand, I have been encouraged by other (albeit more moderate Catholics) that these are hard issues I’m dealing with and that it’s better that I wrestle with them within the walls of the Church than outside of them. I obviously have an affinity for this opinion.

If I wanted, I could write three times as much as I have already written over why I accept wholeheartedly the rest of the Church’s teachings (which I won’t do since this is already quite long). I honestly want to be confirmed, married, and buried within the auspices of the Church. I’m willing to say that someday I may change my mind and become in line with what the Magisterium teaches on these issues, but that isn’t something that will happen anytime soon, if it ever happens at all.

So, ultimately, the question I pose for you all is: am I doing the wrong thing by converting? And if so, and I decide not to, what then? I really don’t want to go back to the Episcopal Church or any other for that matter. Once again, please keep your comments charitable – this is very personal issue for me. Thank you for your responses, and God Bless.

These things are difficult questions and ones that you do need to come to grips with.
Given what you have written here so far, my suggestion is to continue with your studies in preparation to enter the Church. God will give you the necessary graces you will need.

Something that is very important…
There is a very big difference between having a very private reservation about a teaching, and having a very public rejection of a teaching. The latter is what is causing so much trouble in the Church…The former is less of a problem…

Peace
James

 

[1ke]

since you have listed multiple topics, I would suggest breaking these moral issues down into multiple posts (as forum rules dictate).

Regarding abortion, let me ask you if you can articulate why you are against abortion at all? On what do you base your pro-life stance if not that it is wrong to kill babies?

 

[Qwestions]

Hi, Joe. Thank you for posting. No matter how many times these issues have been discussed (and cussed!), we continue to learn more about understanding our faith each time we consider them. (Thank you, Allegra, for reminding us that we can accept, even though we don’t fully understand.)

Catholicism is a gift that has found a way into your being, but you must open wide your doors. We each have internal gatekeepers; yours are still wanting to bar entry. (Get thee behind me, Satan, not in front of me!)

An excellent first step in resolving your doubts is Jimdandy’s advice to spend time in adoraton of the Blessed Sacrament. Take note of what you now consider that adoration to be. When you’re better steeped in the ins and outs of the Catholic faith, and you finally realize that, truly, you’re actually spending that time with the Blessed Sacrament in genuine adoration, and you look forward to those quiet times of oneness, and even try to figure out how you can juggle your schedule so that you can spend more time in adoration, again note what you consider adoration to be. By that point, it’s likely that your current doubts will have been resolved.

You’ll be so in love with God, with Jesus, with the Holy Spirit, and with the life that you’ve been granted to live that you will be filled with joy, especially in those quiet moments when you’re not preoccupied with all those mundane things on your to-do list. You’ll want, more than ANYTHING, to live in a way that glorifies God and that assures that both you and your wife live in a state of grace. When that time comes, the questions bothering you now likely will have lost their importance–a sort of embracing the faith through osmosis (religious science! Smile!).

Give yourself time, Joe. Converse with God throughout the day. Dedicate your thoughts and words and deeds–your very life–to Him each day, as soon as you awaken. Keep in mind that Satan is very real; he rejoices each time you doubt, and he certainly doesn’t want another humanoid staunchly at the side of Christ.

Trust in God–completely. He made you, as He did us all, and His rules are the ones Catholics must follow in order to live eternally with Him in Heaven. Ask that He grant you patience, understanding, trust without reservation, and the rest of the tools that you need in order to be able to live wholeheartedly, in every way, as His chosen one.

Being a good Catholic is a difficult, lifelong work-in-progress, Joe. “It ain’t easy,” but it’s worth it!

Best wishes.

 

[LJN21]

Second is contraception. My fiancée and I have gone through NFP classes and have been educated quite extensively on why the Church condemns artificial contraception as evil. To save some space here, we have both decided that we are capable of having a sexual dimension of our marriage which is loving, respectful, and open to children – while also incorporating condoms. And yes, I have read Humanae Vitea, which I say not to be snotty but because that’s usually the first question I’m asked whenever I bring this up with orthodox Catholics. (As a side note – I think it is a beautiful encyclical, even if I struggle with the idea of contraception being intrinsically evil).

Failure rates for condoms are quite high, and if your only using them during the fertile period the odds of failure go up exponentially. Your far more likely to end up pregnant with this plan than NFP alone

I like the suggestion of reading some lighter works. Holy Sex is a great book. Someone linked this a while back in another thread I thought it was really beautiful. ewtn.com/library/MARRIAGE/MORMAR.TXT
The best thing you can do is pray and keep reading and learning about what the Church teaches on the subject.

 

[Ubenedictus]

Joe, welcome to Catholic.com. I am glad you are pursuing your questions in earnest, and I wish you the best in your marriage and in RCIA.

I’ll try to respond to you In chunks (one point at a time), and we will likely have others join us quickly. First there are a lot of well developed and substantiated articles on this site…so feel free to look beyond the forums for these resources.

On the immorality of Abortion in the case of rape or incest. The beginning point for me on this point was the realization that the child is willed by God…his permissive will. He allowed life to begin. So who are we to insert our will over His? Otherwise, we are saying “it was not our intent to create life, so let’s stop it”. No. That child has been given a unique and complete genetic identity by God. He would rather that we had cooperated differently in how we procreated (He creates, we procreate), but He can still draw great love from this circumstance, especially with heroic cooperation on the part of the mother and others that He will put in the path of his dear child. God can draw great good out of evil acts. Just look at the Crucifixion.

The child is a child at the moment of conception; a wholly unique and totally complete identity already exists. So whether it was the result of rape or incest, or whether it was intended by us or not, doesn’t change the REALITY that the child already exists in God’s mind and will.

Killing the child of course won’t correct an evil act; it only leads to more evil. That child will never be able to love God. Who are we to stop someone from loving God? God sees great, eternally good possibilities for that child and others in that child’s life. We are frustrating God’s love.

Does that begin to answer your first question?

beautiful, well said.

 

[SteveLy]

Keep plugging along.

All of us struggle with completely submitting ourselves to the will of God. None of us ever completely finish the work while on earth. So keep learning and discerning. Agreeing with a teaching is different than being able to agree that the Church teaches something and you accept that you can live with it even if you don’t agree with it.

Congratulations on seeking truth.

 

[SteveLy]

I’ve been thinking about your question a bit and wanted to add that given your age, your views are pretty normal. Particularly if you have been through the public school system and have been attending an Episcopalian church. It will take a while for you to be “de-programmed” from the worldly teachings you have been hearing for your whole life. I encourage you to keep following the path in which God is pulling you. As you go along your spiritual growth and Biblical world view will increase.

Good luck and God bless you and your fiance.

 

[Catholic80]

Hi, everybody! I’ve been following some of the discussions on this forum for a while now, and thought it was finally time to make a post of my own.To be honest, I’m a little nervous about doing this – I tend to avoid confrontation (even on the Internet), so for everyone reading this I just ask that you keep in mind that I am writing out of sincere inquiry and not to start a debate- Heaven knows there are enough of those floating around, even on this very forum.

So this is my situation. I’m in my mid 20’s, having been raised in the United Methodist Church; I joined the Episcopal Church during college. I’m currently going through RCIA in order to become Catholic. I enjoy going to Mass, and honestly desire to have Christ in my life. I love the Church (by which I now mean the Roman Catholic Church) and in my line of work have been able to see firsthand God’s work done overseas by Catholic missionaries.
My fiancée is Catholic; however, I want to be very clear (because I can see the question/comment coming): I do not want to convert because of her. Certainly, us both being Catholic will put us on a much better page when we have children; however, I am converting based on a personal faith decision.

So what’s the problem, you may ask? Well, to be quite frank with you, there a few Church teachings which I struggle with considerably. They aren’t really theological issues - the Eucharist, confession, intercession of the saints; these things I don’t have a roadblock with, though I certainly could always learn more about them. What I wrestle with is some aspects of moral theology, and I’m trying to discern whether that is reason enough for me not to convert. I suppose I am really hung up over three things:

First is the abortion issue. Though I would consider myself “pro-life”, I have a fairly strong conviction that it is immoral to outlaw abortion for cases of rape or incest. I am aware that makes me “pro-choice” to likely the majority of the people on this forum. I respect those of you who would wish to see Roe v. Wade overturned and abortion made illegal across the board; that is not, however, a view that I personally share.Where all of this really matters for me is politically. While I would never vote for a candidate BECAUSE of his or her pro-choice stance, I have encountered times when a pro-choice politician espouses views that on the whole seem much more in line with what Christ taught us than those of his or her pro-life opponent. I understand that many of you believe that the “life-issue” should trump all others when it comes time to vote, and that it is immoral to vote for a pro-choice candidate when there is a pro-life option. Once again, those are opinions which I respect but do not share.

Second is contraception. My fiancée and I have gone through NFP classes and have been educated quite extensively on why the Church condemns artificial contraception as evil. To save some space here, we have both decided that we are capable of having a sexual dimension of our marriage which is loving, respectful, and open to children – while also incorporating condoms. And yes, I have read Humanae Vitea, which I say not to be snotty but because that’s usually the first question I’m asked whenever I bring this up with orthodox Catholics. (As a side note – I think it is a beautiful encyclical, even if I struggle with the idea of contraception being intrinsically evil)

Finally - and this affects me the least directly – I am of the opinion that homosexual couples should be permitted to enter into civil unions that afford them the same legal rights at heterosexual couples. When it comes to gay marriage, I ascribe to the belief that marriage is a sacrament reserved to the Church and that government should have no place in it. I understand concerns about “redefining marriage” – however, when it comes to civil unions at least, I don’t feel comfortable voting to deny things such as tax breaks and hospital visitation rights to gay couples. In fact, I would feel the need to go to confession IF I did so.

The point of all of this is, once again, not to start a fight. I’m not here to convince anyone of the “correctness” of my views or convictions. I am well aware that these beliefs are, to the best of my knowledge, all in opposition to official Church teaching. So here is my dilemma: I have been told before (albeit by some very, very conservative lay Catholics) that if these are my beliefs I should stay away from the Church. They say that while there people within the Church who have such views, such as liberal Jesuits and the LCWR, these are the “cafeteria” elements within Catholicism which are tearing it apart with their heterodoxy. If I am not willing to accept EVERY Church teaching as ultimate Truth, they say, I have no business being confirmed and would actually be a detriment to the Catholic Faith.On the other hand, I have been encouraged by other (albeit more moderate Catholics) that these are hard issues I’m dealing with and that it’s better that I wrestle with them within the walls of the Church than outside of them. I obviously have an affinity for this opinion.

If I wanted, I could write three times as much as I have already written over why I accept wholeheartedly the rest of the Church’s teachings (which I won’t do since this is already quite long). I honestly want to be confirmed, married, and buried within the auspices of the Church. I’m willing to say that someday I may change my mind and become in line with what the Magisterium teaches on these issues, but that isn’t something that will happen anytime soon, if it ever happens at all.

So, ultimately, the question I pose for you all is: am I doing the wrong thing by converting? And if so, and I decide not to, what then? I really don’t want to go back to the Episcopal Church or any other for that matter. Once again, please keep your comments charitable – this is very personal issue for me. Thank you for your responses, and God Bless.

You’ve read Humanae Vitae, but have you studied J.P. II’s Theology of the Body? That would answer most of the questions you have.

When we begin to understand the profound depths that we are created - man and woman - in the image and likeness of God, we begin to understand our sexuality. Our bodies and our physical union with our spouse reflects the Divine mystery of the Trinity. We are not man and woman by accident or convenience. Angels, as far as I know, cannot reproduce. God does not need us to create more humans (He created Adam and Eve without us) But He created us in this fashion of male and female for a very specific and amazing purpose.

In the beginning, God created man and woman. God is pure spirit, but He created us male and female and called us to unite as one flesh. The union of a man and woman, of complete gift of self, brings forth life. This exchange of love during the sexual union is the man giving his entire self over to the woman and the woman receiving her husband’s gift and offering herself totally to her husband. And this exchange of love has the possibility to bring forth life. When we sterilize this act (contraception or homosexual union) we are saying “no” to the Divine mystery. We are refusing not only God’s love, but our own being. We reject the very essence of what our bodies are created for. To use contraception is saying a direct “no” to God’s plan… “I will not offer you my body, and I will not let it be done unto me according to Your word.” Homosexuality is no different. Homosexual union is a sterile act.

Once conception occurs, this new life is also made in the image and likeness of God. Regardless of the way that new human was conceived (aka rape) that does not negate that what resides in the woman’s womb is an eternal soul.
If you can call into question the value and dignity of a human embryo, what is stopping you from calling into question the value and dignity of a mentally disabled person or a paralyzed, incapacitated, stroke victim, or even a hardened criminal, or even your own dignity? State in life nor age of development, cannot remove our part that we share in the Divine mystery which is revealed by our flesh. We are both flesh and soul. But the flesh is what reveals the soul. I cannot see your soul, but I can see “you.” How do I know you have a soul? Because I can see “you.”

I recommend watching the following talks on Theology of the Body:
There’s this series of talks by Christopher West :youtube.com/watch?v=2X3V7QDZBBU&feature=g-like

It’s long, but good, or this talk: youtube.com/watch?v=gqRKvNX4IKU&feature=context-gal , where you have to link to all of the videos (they are in short segments)

 

[Usige]

I won’t go into the areas where you are in disagreement, but more to your question about conversion and the sacraments.

I will assume that you are already baptized (?) and as such when you are received into the Church you will be asked to make a public profession of faith that says:
“I believe and profess all that the holy Catholic Church teaches, believes and proclaims to be revealed by God.”
This is done shortly before receiving the sacraments of Confirmation and the Eucharist.

I was in the same place you are about 6 or 7 years ago (I was grew up in a liberal Presbyterian household). When I was thinking about converting the question I had to ask myself was “can I make the profession about believing all the Church teaches and truly mean it?” It’s really important because the profession is followed shortly after by receiving the two sacraments. If I didn’t truly believe all that the Church teaches wouldn’t I be lying? To then receive the sacraments after publicly lying would be sacrilegious in my mind.

I encourage you to continue in RCIA and continue to study the areas where you are at odds with the Church. Pray about why you disagree and try to accept what the Church teaches. If you come to the time to be received and still cannot say the profession of faith with a clear heart then perhaps you still will need more time and might be received a couple months or couple years later.

At least that’s my 2 cents.

 

[debdiem]

Hi folks,
.
I enjoyed the frank and civil discussion of these issues. I, too, am converting to Catholicism. Fortunately, I am in agreement with the Church teaching and have been for many years in spite of my protestantism. The only teaching on which I had differed was contraception. My thought process that a contraceptive method which prevented conception rather than caused an embryo to fail to implant or to spontaneously (or surgically) abort was ok. Methods of “preventing” pregnancy that were really functionally abortions were wrong. After due consideration, I have come around to the Church’s position of these things.

Thanks again, folks.