Im lost and Confused

  • Thread starter Thread starter SeminoleGirl22
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

SeminoleGirl22

Guest
Ok i went and talked with my priest again like some here and suggested, and here is a quick summary:

i told him about what was going on, and he still asserts that i dont have a valid reason for anullment. (there are many factors involved)
  1. sex can be a powerful step and tool in reconciliation and bring the couple closer.
    BUT----
  2. the unitive aspect should not be removed from sex, so if my husband just “uses” me because he wants sex, then it’s wrong.
    HOWEVER—
  3. Unless there is an intent to always have a Josephine marriage, sex is an expected part of marriage if both people are physically capable and there are no health consequences.
    UNLESS—
  4. if i feel uncomfortable with having sex with my husband, then the unitive aspect of the sex is lost, and having sex would be only to satisfy his desires.
i then asked “but what about bringing a child into a house where the father watches pornography? isnt that irresponsible”?

so i asked "what if we have sex to help reconcile, i get pregnant, and he continues to act like he is God? what then?

by then i was crying, and a younger priest stepped in to see if everything was OK. my priest asked him what he thought and they sat there are argued canon philosiphy for 30 min:

OLDER Priest:-------------------
5) the marriage always comes first, even before children. so if sex could serve as part of the road to a reconciliation to prevent separation or divorce, it should be attempted.

Younger Priest:-----------------------
6) because after long periods (6 months for me) with no intercourse, the woman is more likely to ovulate as a result of the intercourse, and thus much more susceptable to pregnancy. Even if procticing NFP, the chances are substantially higher. so, the chances of having a child in an potentially “unstable” situation are higher, which could nullify the reconciliatory, unitive and required aspect of sex in marriage.

OLDER Priest:----------------------------
7) God intends pregnancy to happen when it happens. He wont give you more then you can handle, so skirting around His Will for marriage by refusing sex doesnt help things.

Younger Priest:--------------------------------
8) sex is meant to be mutual and loving, and cannot be abused by one partner as mindless recreation.

so 4 for, and 4 against basically. both of them came to the conclusion that there seems to be a “bug” in the situation, that is, any action taken can ultimately lead to a wrong/sin being committed in some form or another. neither of them have ever come across a situation like this before. im damned if i do, and damned if i dont.
they said they would consult with a doctor of the church. mind of i ask why a doctor is appropriate to bring into this? do they want to teach me super-NFP or something? im so confused.

i can have sex with him to help reconcile, but run the risk of possibly becoming pregnant. i can also not have sex with him and take the chance he will not change and become more distant, and possibly leave. either way, i lose.
 
The priests don’t grant annulments, the tribunal does. Talk to the younger priest (or get another opinion from a third priest) and put in an application - if that is what you want. The tribunal will decide based on what is presented to them.
 
Catholism can be like that damned if you do or damned if you don’t, but it can also be justifibly do one thing or do the other. Sometimes the most disheartening thing can be when you bring in an either/or problem and find out that both solutions are wrong. But you have to look for the other way, it is a narrow gate. You really need to take it to be most carefull with your intenitions and take it to prayer.

Pray to God to open your heart to let you know how to do what you need to do. You can ask advice, and it is a very good thing to seek guidence from the Church, priests & other holy people. I know your lost and confused, but in this humbleness is when God can do his best work, so please be open to him.

You may feel that no matter what you do you lose, but if you keep faithful, by making plans, but always open to God showing you a plan B, then you will win. It may not be in a way you think it will be right now, but later it’ll make sence.

As the Lord often says “Be not afraid.” He says that because, he understands you are afraid, but he knows he will always be there to protect you if you let him, though it may not be in the way you think it should be done. Think of it as a child being scared of a shot. The parent knows it’ll hurt, but it is for a good.

Sorry to not be able to help in making any decisions, but please take care, you’ll be in my prayers.
 
they said they would consult with a** doctor of the church**. mind of i ask why a doctor is appropriate to bring into this? do they want to teach me super-NFP or something? im so confused.

It is my understanding that a Doctor of the Church is not a medical doctor but an expert in Canon law and/or theology.

I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong.

Gearoidin
 
40.png
Gearoidin:
they said they would consult with a** doctor of the church**. mind of i ask why a doctor is appropriate to bring into this? do they want to teach me super-NFP or something? im so confused.

It is my understanding that a Doctor of the Church is not a medical doctor but an expert in Canon law and/or theology.

I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong.

Gearoidin
Click to expand...
You are right. Some doctors who are saints include St. Therese and St. Theresa of Avila.
 
Have you and your hubby tried any sort of therapy together? You might have answered this on another thread but I don’t remember. Sorry about that.
 
The pornography is a red flag for other destructive behaviours. It is a warning sign.

How long have you been married?
What other destructive behaviours, attitudes, tendencies has your husband learned and/or revealed to you thusfar?
 
40.png
SeminoleGirl22:
i can have sex with him to help reconcile, but run the risk of possibly becoming pregnant. i can also not have sex with him and take the chance he will not change and become more distant, and possibly leave. either way, i lose.
Click to expand...
Oh honey, my heart breaks for you. ❤️ You certainly have my prayers.

I just want to say, and I hope this at least helps with your peace of heart, that if you do give yourself to your husband, that it can be a truely giving and unitive act on your part, whatever his intentions are. God always blesses selfless giving. If a child results despite your efforts to avoid pregnancy, the older priest is right to say that God never gives us more than we can handle. And He never brings a life into the world “by mistake”, so children are ALWAYS a blessing and a gift, if sometimes in diguise! 🙂 In a way, knowing that could bring you comfort instead of anguish. I don’t think in this case you are necessarily “damned” either way. Our Lord has promised that all we have to do is ask for help, and we shall receive. If you do decide the best course is to refuse your husband marital intimacy, you can pray and pray for him and your marriage to make sure your intentions are in the right place. Maybe you can find other things to do for him instead? You can, of course, always make regular and faithful use of the Sacraments… that will always lead you the right way eventually, praised be to God!

Again, I pray that my words do not add to your anguish. May you take refuge in the precious Heart of our Mother Mary. May she be your greatest comfort. Who knows, perhaps all this redemptive suffering on your part will eventually lead to your husband’s conversion, even if your marriage eventually gets annulled.
 
If you were my sister or my best friend, here is the way I’d draw it out.

If he is not putting you in physical danger, there is a cholice to make (if you are in physical danger, you should just go…)

You have a decision to make, do you want to be married to this man or not. If your true answer in your heart is yes, then, it is time to love him.

In other posts, you have stated that he is not Catholic, and does not really practice any form of Christianity. So, you have married a non-practicing Christian. There are non-Catholic Christians who do not believe that pornography or masturbation are sins – they will teach in marriage classes that erotic movies are acceptable ways to “spice up” a marriage, there are some who teach that self-gratification is a good way to KEEP from sinning. This really is a message in some parts of the “Christian” community, and you cannot expect someone to un-learn that overnight. Now, if your husband is not even a practicing Christian, he most likely does not see these things as sinful.

Take a deep breath and realize that you walked into his house, saw the “porn” and freaked out on him (from his perspective) for something that is just a normal thing. So – my advice for the time being – stop talking about it. Just be blind to the fact that it is in the house for now. Let GOD do the changing of his heart. You may need to take another vacation or stay with someone for a couple of weeks to get yourself ready, but, do it.

Second, don’t beat him over the head with the fact that you saved yourself for marriage and he did not. What you did was a good pure noble thing, but, it we are not supposed to use good pure noble things as weapons – if you use a priceless gold and jeweled candle stick to bash someone up side of the head, it not only injures the person, bit damages the beautiful candlestick.

So, starting today be nice to him. Be friendly, be kind. If you stay at home, fix nice meals or suggest going out to a nice restaurant and a play. Date him again, do not respond to evil with evil, but respond to evil with good. Be the best example of Christian love you can be. Remember, Jesus hung on a cross and died for your husband. I’m NOT saying that you should jump right into the bedroom – you both need to work back to that place – but, you can be nice and kind and fun WITHOUT having sex (you did it when you were dating, remember?). Go to the gym with him. Ask him to go to church with you, and if he says no – smile your sweetest smile and say “okay, I’ll see you at 2” – and on the way back from Church, maybe stop and pick up a nice pastry or other goodie – tell him with your actions that going to Church puts you in a sunny frame of mind.

Pray for him every day, and that does not mean getting on your knees and shaking your rosary in his face, just between you and God and have the Saints join you. When you are vacuuming the floor, offer it up for your marriage. When you are washing dishes, offer it up for your marriage. When you are gritting your teeth when he says crude things, offer it up for your marriage. Pray for his conversion, you can be the best advertisement for the Faith by letting the love shine from you.

If he will not go to a councilor together, then you go alone – and keep asking him to join you (not nagging) – let him see the positive impact it makes on you.

This will be a hard cross, and if you feel you do not want to stay married to him –

So, in your heart you cannot stay married to this man. Then what is the very worst thing that can happen? You divorce him and apply to the marriage tribunal for a review of the validity of the marriage. They make their investigation; see that the marriage was valid. You then live your life civilly divorced, and are not free to marry. You go to school, or to work, you commit yourself to the Church – and continue mission work – you find your vocation, and you go on with your life. That is the worst thing that could happen.

Perhaps an annulment would be granted – cross that bridge when you get there, but, if you leave – know it your mind that a life where you are validly but not civilly married may be your cross to bear, and then bear it.

Right now, you are miserable. There is a fork in the road, take one of them. Stay in or get out. You need, with the help of the prayers of the Saints, your family and your friends, and the grace of the sacraments – to make a decision and stick to it. Inaction will just serve to make the situation go from bad to worse.

Prayers for you!
 
Call the diocese’s offices and ask to be directed to the office of the tribunal. This is borderline ridiculous. I’m sure these priests mean well, but everyone has a RIGHT to have their marriage investigated if there is any question that they may not have a valid marriage. A priest is not a tribunal, you do not have an advocate, there is not a defender of the bond, there are not any judges and/or canon lawyers to listen to witnesses and the stories of both you AND your husband!!! This priest is not the end all, be all of wisdom on this particular marriage!!! Stop going to the priest who keeps insisting that you should put up with a porn addict who shuts you out of his home and insists you sleep with him in order to pay your bills and after he’s sufficiently aroused from masturbating to filth!!! Do you want to have to beg for co-pays for child’s medical care or give him sex when the baby needs clothing or a carseat?

GET YOUR MARRIAGE INVESTIGATED. If they determine it is probably not valid, divorce this man and then petition for an annullment. You thought you were marrying a devout, Catholic man with chastity in his life. Instead you were marrying a man addicted to porn and with zero respect for sexuality in marriage.

Is anyone familiar with Bud and Bai McFarlane? He divorced her on grounds of extreme cruelty and she protested this mightily and asked her diocese to simply investigate their marriage. She was not petitioning for an annullment, she just wanted to be sure her marriage was valid. It was thoroughly investigated and found to be valid.
 
If I recall correctly - you cannot begin an investigation process until you have legal divorce papers.

As far as not taking one well-meaning Priest’s word for it - that is very true. The tribunal is the place to go for answers, and they will advise you if divorce is required prior to investigation.
 
You really, really need to speak with someone else besides this priest. He’s not helping you and you need guidance. And probably an annulment. Go ahead and get your marriage investigated or whatever you have to do. As Princess Abby said, this is ridiculous.
 
40.png
kage_ar:
If I recall correctly - you cannot begin an investigation process until you have legal divorce papers.

As far as not taking one well-meaning Priest’s word for it - that is very true. The tribunal is the place to go for answers, and they will advise you if divorce is required prior to investigation.
Click to expand...
Bai started it prior to the divorce being finalized. I think it is up to the tribunal in question if they will investigate without a petition for annullment (meaning a divorce has been obtained).

Tribunal offices have an intake procedure and you can make an appt and discuss this with the intake person.
 
By all means stop dithering and start the annulment process. This man doesn’t love you or care for you, and apparently, never intended to keep his marriage vows. And, he most certainly won’t care for any children you may have but only use them against you. Get yourself out now while the getting out is good!!!
 
If I were in your situation, I think I would leave him but not the marriage.

I would move out (probably back home so that I could receive support from my family) and let him know that that is where I would be when he grew up and wanted to participate in our marriage.

He needs to be given the opportunity to change, but that does not mean that you have to be walked all over.

Go home to your parents.

Tell your husband what you expect of him in order for you to come back.

Let him know that you are not giving up on the marriage, not seeking a divorce, and not looking into an annulment (there will be plenty of time for that if things don’t change).

Tell him that you will not be “dating” or in any other way unfaithful as you believe that your marriage can be saved.

And put a time limit on it. I would give it a year. If you don’t see any willingness on his part to change his destructive behaviors then I would seek divorce and/or annulment.

I see this as the best way to save the marriage. Give it some thought. Pray a lot!!! Do what you know God wants you to do (whatever that is). I will pray for you and your husband.

Malia
 
40.png
mumto5:
The priests don’t grant annulments, the tribunal does. Talk to the younger priest (or get another opinion from a third priest) and put in an application - if that is what you want. The tribunal will decide based on what is presented to them.
Click to expand...
definitely. Of course, you have to wait until the divorce is final though. But as soon as it is, file for the annulment.
 
Perhaps not, i always recomend Retrouvaille in these circumstances, been there done that, best thing that ever happened to my marriage. Love is not a feeling it is a choice. if you truly do want to reconcile with your husband you have to decide to love him, choose to be his wife. take things slowly. Perhaps if you start allowing your husband to touch you again, not sexually but affectionately. maybe then he will realize what hes missing. make a date for the two of you. you have to learn to reconnect with him. dont bring up anything negative until you two learn how to fight fairly and discuss something like adults. again Retrouvaille will REALLY help you there. and finally making love will reconnect you again. it will bring you closer together, right now your husband is feeling rejected and like you are trying to control him and to change him. you dont have to accept the pornography. pornography is abusive in a marriage. but slowly he will miss you more and more, the real thing more and more. i can say i know how you feel because i have been there. 8 months ago i was a bride of only four months who found herself in a room full of broken marriages. i hated my husband, i hated the fact that i had married him, i hated my marriage and hated that i was there having to listen to all this when it was HIM (DH) who had done everything wrong. boy was i mistaken. now my husband has let go of the addiction that was causing us problems. I too held back from him to make him stop looking at that garbage. but i was wrong for doing that. now 8 months later and nearly a year into our marriage, my husband is my best friend. i love him more and more everyday. sure he grates on my nerves sometimes, but its so much better now. and as far as getting pregnant goes, trust that in God’s hands. He will not give you anything more than you can handle. if you want more info on Retrouvaille PM me. God Bless you for sticking in there seminolegirl. many women in your situation would be running for the hills rather than honoring their marriage vows they took before God.
40.png
SeminoleGirl22:
Ok i went and talked with my priest again like some here and suggested, and here is a quick summary:

i told him about what was going on, and he still asserts that i dont have a valid reason for anullment. (there are many factors involved)
  1. sex can be a powerful step and tool in reconciliation and bring the couple closer.
    BUT----
  2. the unitive aspect should not be removed from sex, so if my husband just “uses” me because he wants sex, then it’s wrong.
    HOWEVER—
  3. Unless there is an intent to always have a Josephine marriage, sex is an expected part of marriage if both people are physically capable and there are no health consequences.
    UNLESS—
  4. if i feel uncomfortable with having sex with my husband, then the unitive aspect of the sex is lost, and having sex would be only to satisfy his desires.
i then asked “but what about bringing a child into a house where the father watches pornography? isnt that irresponsible”?

so i asked "what if we have sex to help reconcile, i get pregnant, and he continues to act like he is God? what then?

by then i was crying, and a younger priest stepped in to see if everything was OK. my priest asked him what he thought and they sat there are argued canon philosiphy for 30 min:

OLDER Priest:-------------------
5) the marriage always comes first, even before children. so if sex could serve as part of the road to a reconciliation to prevent separation or divorce, it should be attempted.

Younger Priest:-----------------------
6) because after long periods (6 months for me) with no intercourse, the woman is more likely to ovulate as a result of the intercourse, and thus much more susceptable to pregnancy. Even if procticing NFP, the chances are substantially higher. so, the chances of having a child in an potentially “unstable” situation are higher, which could nullify the reconciliatory, unitive and required aspect of sex in marriage.

i can have sex with him to help reconcile, but run the risk of possibly becoming pregnant. i can also not have sex with him and take the chance he will not change and become more distant, and possibly leave. either way, i lose.
Click to expand...
 
–because after long periods (6 months for me) with no intercourse, the woman is more likely to ovulate as a result of the intercourse, and thus much more susceptable to pregnancy.—
Click to expand...
That’s not true. Intercourse has not effects on whether or not you ovulate. I took a whole class that went into great depths of how our fertility works. I mean, if that were true, the first time a woman had sex, she’d be stuck getting pregnant as the sperm has to be inside the woman for 48 hours before they are in condition to disperse the …forgot the name but it is like a shield around the ovum…looks like a halo… in order to fertilize the ovum. The sperm can also live inside the woman four an entire week. NFP only tracks when you’re most and least fertile and in the calculation is included the lifespan of the sperm.
–they said they would consult with a doctor of the church—
Click to expand...
That makes no sense. The doctors of the Church are saints who have taught us something about the road to Heaven. For instance, St. Therese of the Child Jesus, is a doctor of the Church. I also believe that St. Augustine is. They might be consulting the Summa, a work written by St. Augustine.
–i told him about what was going on, and he still asserts that i dont have a valid reason for anullment.—
Click to expand...
An annulment is not a Catholic divorce. What is occurring now in the marriage is not looked at. What is looked at is what was going on when you got married. There has to be something impeding that would prevent one of you from fully being able to or unwilling to consent to the marriage. This can mean not understanding what marriage is, immaturity or an outright refusal at the time of the vows, to actually follow your marital vows.
–the unitive aspect should not be removed from sex, so if my husband just “uses” me because he wants sex, then it’s wrong.—
Click to expand...
It’s a sin that he is using you. It is not a sin on your part. Your husband needs to be willing to grow in his spiritual life and work against using you as a sexual object.

This sounds like a spiritual problem on your husband’s ground. Its his sin if the unitive part is lost. I would pray for my spouse and discuss with him ways to get rid of his temptation to watch pornography. Since you haven’t had sex in awhile, it may be leading him to temptation. You need to see where his heart is. Is he willing to corporate and work against his addiction to pornography? If so and if he’s willing to let you do things like monitor his behavior and get him some sort of help, than I would have sex with him as you are probably making the situation worse by refraining from sex. If however you feel the reconciliation is not possible, I would separate from my spouse. Realise though that you are still married and not free to marry because of this. You could still try to get an annulment, but be obedient to what the Church’s ruling is and do not even consider dating until and if the annulment is granted.

If he is struggling with the addiction but totally open to getting help over it, than it would not be irresponsible to have sex with him and to possibly get pregnant. If he’s struggling, I would hope he would have the decency that he would never engage in the sin in front of the child. But remember that no child has perfect parents, and deal with it if he is scandalizing the child if that situation actually comes up.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top