I'm not a Catholic because

[miztyzo562]

This is Catholic Answers and you may want to look at the forum rules or soon you will be a memory unable to participate in dialogue.

You appear not to be looking for answers. The priest scandal is a scandal. There are Protestant pastors that have done the same. Ted Hagard had a gay relationship, Jimmy Swagart consorted with a Prostitute…Zwingli was a fornicator, David cheated on his wife…and you know what when you look at the geneology of Jesus…

The geneology of Jesus is filled with all sorts of people that sinned…this is His Family…would you like to level some of your criticims there. We are His family and we sin…unless of course you do not belong to the family.
You have no requirement to tell anyone what they should do.

1.What Forum rules have I borken? Is it wrong for me to give an apologetic answer concering a view I have even though it may differ from your own when asked constantly? Nor have I instructed anyone to do anything or believe anything concerning my faith.

1. Just because I dont post in other thread’s doesnt determine a lack of searching on my part.
2. I have the same view concerning the Protestants as you do, so why bring up THEIR scandal?
3. What does the geneology of the Lord have to do with this discussion? Lest you attempt to snare me in to your argument. It seems hypocritical that you should bring up the Forum Rules when you’ve broken the following.
   “Catholics must be charitable in their discussions about non-Catholic belief and practice”

 

[PJM]

=miztyzo562;8502189]

You still haven’t addressed as to why Catholics still bow and worship to statues of Mary in the 20th century as my link clearly shows. As for the link you’ve provided:shrug:, it proves nothing.

And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden.*** For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;***

 

[miztyzo562]

=miztyzo562;8502189]

 

[PJM]

=miztyzo562;8502906]

Again, I know their is nothing in the Catechism that alludes to idol worship, nor do I worship a book or bow before it. But you still allude as to why this is going on.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Zsu3PvBa1...AAACU/pPu5BnRDE9c/s320/catholic_idolaters.jpg

 

[PJM]

=truthordeath;8502864]Well I guess you could say that I belong to the religion of the Word of God.There is no such religion that I know of, but that is what I follow. Man is merely a meddler.

***My dear friend: That is NOT a religion; at best its a cult.

IF you wish to know about God; we can help you. be chairitable and specific in your questions and comments.

God Bless you,
Pat***

 

[PJM]

=Miriam1947;8503203]

What does being a devout practicing Roman Catholic mean? When and why did you become un-devout?

 

[PJM]

=miztyzo562;8503144]

I am not condeming anyone, I’m merely showing the truth, if you find it condeming then its not my perogative. The first part of your reply can be answered here “Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.”

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH;8503020:

I am not condeming anyone, I’m merely showing the truth, if you find it condeming then its not my perogative. The first part of your reply can be answered here “Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.”

, I can’t see why you would do the same for show, its only obvious you wouldn’t jump off a bridge if others were doing it.

Well, I wouldn’t do it for show, miztyzo. You have missed my point completely. If one can be accused of “worshiping” by the act of bowing down, without considering their interior disposition, then one can, by the same reasoning, worship God by bowing down even if one might have no faith whatsoever when doing so. We both know that that is ludicrous. So my point remains: What matters is one’s interior disposition and intention, not an exterior act.

As for your statement that “I am not condeming anyone, I’m merely showing the truth…” I would argue that you are not showing the truth, but rather your perception of the truth. You have no way to read other’s hearts and so you are judging them based upon their physical posture while having no idea of their intention.

In addition, you heard over and over the Catholic position but refuse to accept it. We do not worship Mary or any of the saints, period. We do ask them to pray for us and if we do that while on our knees it matters not. In one period of prayer I may be on my knees praying to God and then end that period by asking Mary and the saints to pray for me also. Should I stand when I ask for intercessory prayer so that God knows that I am not worshiping Mary? Come on.

 

[miztyzo562]

=miztyzo562;8502906]

 

[walnutleviosa]

I’m not a Catholic because the Easter Vigil hasn’t arrived yet

Ditto

 

[miztyzo562]

What matters is one’s interior disposition and intention, not an exterior act.

As for your statement that “I am not condeming anyone, I’m merely showing the truth…” I would argue that you are not showing the truth, but rather your perception of the truth. You have no way to read other’s hearts and so you are judging them based upon their physical posture while having no idea of their intention.

In addition, you heard over and over the Catholic position but refuse to accept it. We do not worship Mary or any of the saints, period. We do ask them to pray for us and if we do that while on our knees it matters not. In one period of prayer I may be on my knees praying to God and then end that period by asking Mary and the saints to pray for me also…

Again I am not condeming anyone, nor have I accused anyone of worshipping Mary (read again and show me where I stated such) and for the argumentative rebuttal of " I would argue that you are not showing the truth", the reply’s I gave are directly Scriptual

 

[SteveVH]

Again I am not condeming anyone, nor have I accused anyone of worshipping Mary (read again and show me where I stated such) and for the argumentative rebuttal of " I would argue that you are not showing the truth", the reply’s I gave are directly Scriptual

Did you not show a picture of people kneeling before a statue of Mary and quote scripture to show how this violated God’s command not to bow down or serve them? Does this not then very strongly imply that those shown in the picture are then worshiping Mary? And is this not “accusing” them of worshiping Mary?

The scriptural quotes you gave do not apply unless one is truly worshiping someone or something other than God. That is the purpose of the command. It is not a lesson on physical posture. It means worship no one but God alone and I know no Catholic who worships anyone but God alone. If they do, they have violated the teachings of their own Church as well as the command of God. And if I am wrong in my assumptions, then just exactly what did you mean by showing the picture and giving the quotes you gave?

 

[Heuchler]

IMO, Maccabees has value as an historical book of that period.

Yes, I have been reading the Jewish Midrash on the Torah. Very interesting, but Biblical commentaries are from men, food for thought, but the Bible is from God, that we should neither add to it, nor subtract from it.

Thanks for your responses. First I would like to address how you say that the Bible is from God. The Bible was written by men who were inspired by the Holy Spirit and contain truths about the faith. The Holy Spirit continues to work through people even to this day. The “add to, subtract part” was also not in relation to all of scriptures because these were written before 100 AD and the whole Bible was compiled in the 300s. That one verse could not have taken into account the whole of scriptures and only applied to editing of that specific book (I think if I remember correctly it was Revelations but correct me if I’m wrong). And Luther also removed books meaning that the protestant Bible is in complete error for that reason (however, I’m not sure if you include the deuterocanonicals in your Bible. I’m assuming since you aren’t Catholic that you don’t which is why you regard Maccabees as only a historical book.)

Otherwise, there really isn’t much I can address and try to persuade you about. But thanks for your time and God bless.

 

[pablope]

pablope;8502853:

Again, I know their is nothing in the Catechism that alludes to idol worship, nor do I worship a book or bow before it. But you still allude as to why this is going on.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Zsu3PvBa1...AAACU/pPu5BnRDE9c/s320/catholic_idolaters.jpg

This directley violates “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. **You shall not bow down **to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me"

If you say, “In my mind im not bowing before a statue”, its like telling a Police officer “In my mind I don’t own this bag of Cannabis, im just holding it”

That is because you equate bowing with worshipping. Seems you have been indoctrinated by all the anti catholic videos you have been watching.

How do you know the reason those in the picture are bowing for? You do not…you infer wrongdoing…equating it with worshipping…because that is what has been indoctrinated to you.

The pic shows kneeling, bowing…but they could be in deep conversation with God. The statue just happened to there. Again, I suggest to look into the heart, not externals.

 

[pablope]

PJM;8503588:

I can agree to that. I cut the rest of your reply for space constraints (also to note that I understand the reasoning behind the prayers to the Saints and Mary). But as you can see from other replys that stipulate “We dont bow to statues”, the picture shows differntly, which im sure you can reason with my objection.

Because you equate bowing with worship.

You should know then that worship for a catholic is the Mass, not what you showed. And praying to a catholic is different to praying to a protestant. When protestants threw out the Mass as the form of worship, the only thing they had left is prayer.

 

[miztyzo562]

Did you not show a picture of people kneeling before a statue of Mary and quote scripture to show how this violated God’s command not to bow down or serve them? Does this not then very strongly imply that those shown in the picture are then worshiping Mary? And is this not “accusing” them of worshiping Mary? ?

Did “I” say they were worshiping Mary? No, that was YOUR interpretation which you constantly acuse me of doing. Does the picture show them kneeling before a statue of Mary? Yes, does the commandent state not to bow to ANY statue?? Yes. Did I give a “PERSONAL INTERPRETATION” to the scripture?? No.

The scriptural quotes you gave do not apply unless one is truly worshiping someone or something other than God. That is the purpose of the command. It is not a lesson on physical posture. It means worship no one but God alone and I know no Catholic who worships anyone but God alone. If they do, they have violated the teachings of their own Church as well as the command of God. And if I am wrong in my assumptions, then just exactly what did you mean by showing the picture and giving the quotes you gave?

If you read back in the earlier replys, you would see that “I DID” give that picture as an example along with the Scriptual quote because “THERE ARE” people who worship Mary. Nothing in my replys hints that ALL Catholics do this, which should be evident in your own reply of “If they do” and my replys to PJM.

 

[miztyzo562]

miztyzo562;8502906:

That is because you equate bowing with worshipping. Seems you have been indoctrinated by all the anti catholic videos you have been watching.

How do you know the reason those in the picture are bowing for? You do not…you infer wrongdoing…equating it with worshipping…because that is what has been indoctrinated to you.

The pic shows kneeling, bowing…but they could be in deep conversation with God. The statue just happened to there. Again, I suggest to look into the heart, not externals.

The statue just happened to be there?? So its a coincidence that they just happened to be to gether to?? You guys are getting carried away with puting words into my reply’s that I didnt use. Please read my replys in their entirety before casting judgment as you judge me for supposedly condeming Catholics.

 

[joe370]

Hey Miztyz…

o562;8502906]

Again, I know their is nothing in the Catechism that alludes to idol worship, nor do I worship a book or bow before it. But you still allude as to why this is going on.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Zsu3PvBa1...AAACU/pPu5BnRDE9c/s320/catholic_idolaters.jpg

Let’s just say, for arguments sake, that those 6 people are really worshiping the statue as opposed to God. The CC in no way would ever endorse such silliness so your issue would be with those 6 folks, not the Catholic Church. Neither Catholics nor Protestants worship anyone other that God.

 

[SteveVH]

Did “I” say they were worshiping Mary? No, that was YOUR interpretation which you constantly acuse me of doing. Does the picture show them kneeling before a statue of Mary? Yes, does the commandent state not to bow to ANY statue?? Yes. Did I give a “PERSONAL INTERPRETATION” to the scripture?? No.

If you read back in the earlier replys, you would see that “I DID” give that picture as an example along with the Scriptual quote because “THERE ARE” people who worship Mary. Nothing in my replys hints that ALL Catholics do this, which should be evident in your own reply of “If they do” and my replys to PJM.

If you want to play games, I would suggest that this is not the place to do it. How do you know that “THERE ARE” people who worship Mary? Even if that were true, why would you bring this up on a Catholic Forum when you know that this is not a teaching of the Catholic Church, nor a belief of any Catholic I have ever known? I can certainly understand someone asking the question; it is a myth that is widley believed by many outside of our Church. But, once explained, why do you insist that this is what those people in the picture were doing? Why would you point to the extremely rare exception rather than engage us in questioning actual Church teaching?

You posed the question and it has been answered. It sounds like you didn’t get the answer for which you had hoped and you’re having a very hard time letting it go. You have scirptural proof that worshiping Mary is a bad thing and we would agree with you. Now you have nowhere to go with your argument, yet you continue to make it. That is why people are questioning your motives.

 

[joe370]

True and I agree, but ** why** incorporate such things rooted in idolotry and ancient pagan worship? Isn’t the word of our Lord enough to suffice as to where we don’t need objects of rememberance to embrace His Love? And thank you for being non argumentative

I’m sure there is a logical explanation for the pine cone being there. The important point to make is that you and I both agree that it is not part of the Cristian faith and teachings of the CC.

If the teaching office of the CC ever insists that the word of our Lord IS NOT enough to suffice necessitating the need for pagan objects of remembrance to supplement the faith then I will most definitely agree with you my friend.