I'm not a Catholic because

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krahnicles said:
Hi. I’m new. I don’t know much about Catholicism (or this forum) so the answer might change over time. As of right now, though, I’m just not. I don’t think it’s a big deal. Catholic is another kind of Christian, except in my experience, most Christians primarily care that other people are Christians. And then Catholics sometimes seem to care more about Catholicity than Christianity. I don’t think that’s right, so I wouldn’t want to be someone who does that.
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How so?

Peace
 
GaryTaylor said:
How so?

Peace
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I don’t know if his experience is the same as mine, but I’ve heard several Catholics from my school tell me that they consider themselves Catholic before they do Christian. What they meant is that they are more concerned with following the Church than following Christ, and though I know the point of the Church is to carry forth Christ’s teachings, the problem was that they weren’t paying any thought to that. They were doing what the Church told them for the sake of the Church with no mindfulness to Christ. It was empty ritual for them, but they were alright with that.

Some friends and I started asking them tough questions, though, and with some rebuking they came to see that their motivation was in the wrong place. We weren’t looking to convert them to a different form of Christianity, so the fact that they’re actually firm in their faith now says that we accomplished something good.

I’m not Catholic because I cannot accept some very specific ideas. I know you don’t worship Mary or pray to the saints in place of God, I know that the Priest is supposed to represent God in Confession, and I generally know enough about church history and doctrine to know what the Church actually teaches. But with some of them, I see Roman influence, and I see so many people fall into empty ritualism or misplaced devotion, and I can’t join in. I know my weaknesses, and I’m the kind of person that could very easily allow it all to just become empty ritual.

On the other side, my faith is what it is because I have a community of believers around me that hold me accountable and rebuke me for any missteps I take. They encourage me to read the Bible (and they’ve succeeded in convincing me to make it daily), we worship together and raise our voices (hymns, contemporary stuff, anything goes, really), pray together, and do life together. The church itself is small, fairly traditional, and very focused on active faith. There are very few lukewarm Christians there. It’s a Wesleyan Methodist church, so the liturgy isn’t particularly liberal.

I appreciate the Catholic Church. Many of my close friends are Catholic. I’ve learned about it for the past year through research and reading. But with my vulnerabilities and spiritual weaknesses, it’s best for me to stay in the solid crowd that I’m already in.
 
JonNC said:
Its not so much that I’m not Catholic, as it is I am Lutheran. But to answer your question, I’ll point to 2 things:
  1. I still find the Augsburg Confession to be a confession of faith that is both catholic and evangelical, and one I can still confess without any serious question of conscience.
  2. I continue to find the current claims of universal jurisdiction and infallibility of the pope to be outside the teachings of the early councils and Church. This is for me the overriding factor in remaining outside of communion with the Bishop of Rome, something I would be happy to resolve.
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What he said.

And having said that, I have often said that if I found it impossible to remain a Lutheran I would have to give serious consideration to becoming a Catholic
 
I simply do not find it’s claims…religous and historical compelling enough to be Catholic.
 
ConsciousCoward said:
I don’t know if his experience is the same as mine, but I’ve heard several Catholics from my school tell me that they consider themselves Catholic before they do Christian. What they meant is that they are more concerned with following the Church than following Christ, and though I know the point of the Church is to carry forth Christ’s teachings, the problem was that they weren’t paying any thought to that. They were doing what the Church told them for the sake of the Church with no mindfulness to Christ. It was empty ritual for them, but they were alright with that.

Some friends and I started asking them tough questions, though, and with some rebuking they came to see that their motivation was in the wrong place. We weren’t looking to convert them to a different form of Christianity, so the fact that they’re actually firm in their faith now says that we accomplished something good.
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I think this kind of situation is going to happen less and less. It’s not that long ago when most people went to church, because it was respectable thing to do. But now the west is kind of post Christian, and children who grow up in these kind of families are not going to feel the same obligation to pass to faith on to their own children unless they are really converted.

It is sad when Catholics don’t realize the beauty of their own faith. What I have discovered is how the Sacraments of Catholism are so full rather than empty. How God works through the physical AND spiritual, because we aren’t angels, we are embodied souls.
 
=JonNC;8472588]Its not so much that I’m not Catholic, as it is I am Lutheran. But to answer your question, I’ll point to 2 things:
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  1. I still find the Augsburg Confession to be a confession of faith that is both catholic and evangelical, and one I can still confess without any serious question of conscience.
  2. I continue to find the current claims of universal jurisdiction and infallibility of the pope to be outside the teachings of the early councils and Church. This is for me the overriding factor in remaining outside of communion with the Bishop of Rome, something I would be happy to resolve.
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Jon
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Hi again Jon,

Consider Mt. 16:18-19…the key to heaven is singular as are God; God’s set of religious beliefs and Always only one church. Then look at mt. 28:19-20 and the charge to teach the entire world; someting that in an absolute sense demands the position of the papacy be as broad as it is. Keeping in mind that Mt. 16:18-19 are all about the right to govern this One Church and One Faith as needed to accomplish the commnad to teach the entire world.

Then read John 14:8-10, John 17:15-19 and John 20:19-22…where Christ actually passes on specifically His Powers and His Own Authority as God to Peter and subsiquent Popes. “As the Father sent me, SO TOO I SEND YOU.”

The Bible is not to be taken lightly nor is it to be interpeted except by those Christ grants the authority too and personally warrants Her Teaching.

FYI: I’m working on a document entitles “Peter: and the Formation of the papacy”…If yo’d care to share your e-mail vai a PM I’ll send you a copy of it when completed.

I struggle with your perspective because God used Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, the Judges ect. as single laders of the entire nation. What’s so different about using Popes?

God Bless you Jon,
Pat
 
…I do not believe the church of Jesus Christ exists exclusively in one organization. I furthermore do not believe God gives special gifts and gracings to one organization that He will not give to other organizations on the basis of lineage.
 
=Kouyate42;8472589]Because I find the claims of the Bible to be ludicrous, yet alone the beliefs of a specific form of Christianity.
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Lets discuss it:)

What specifically and why?

Looking forward to your reply,

God Bless you friend,
Pat
 
=meltzerboy;8472781]While it is certainly true that people convert due to a variety of reasons, including dissatisfaction with the teachings of their own religion, I think the majority remain faithful to the religion they were raised in, some more faithful (and practicing) than others of course. If I was raised Catholic, I would most likely have remained Catholic. But since I was raised Jewish and have no major complaints about my faith, whereas I do have a spiritual, emotional, intellectual, and cultural attachment to it, I remain Jewish. That doesn’t mean, however, I am not interested in finding out about other faiths; I simply feel no need to change. Admittedly, not a very philosophical or profound reply on my part, but it is my view.
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THANKS,

Feel free to send me a PM with any questions you’d care to learn more about or simply discuss.

Shalom brother,
Pat
 
=Lokabrenna;8472987]I am not a Catholic because I don’t believe in what the Church teaches. If I did, I would be a Catholic–not a good Catholic, necessarily, but I wouldn’t be a Pagan! 😃
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Playing devils advocate, what specifically do you find difficult to accept? I’m happy to enter into a dialog with you,

God Bless,
Pat
 
=PJM;8475737]Hi again Jon,
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Consider Mt. 16:18-19…the key to heaven is singular as are God; God’s set of religious beliefs and Always only one church. Then look at mt. 28:19-20 and the charge to teach the entire world; someting that in an absolute sense demands the position of the papacy be as broad as it is. Keeping in mind that Mt. 16:18-19 are all about the right to govern this One Church and One Faith as needed to accomplish the commnad to teach the entire world.
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Then read John 14:8-10, John 17:15-19 and John 20:19-22…where Christ actually passes on specifically His Powers and His Own Authority as God to Peter and subsiquent Popes. “As the Father sent me, SO TOO I SEND YOU.”
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I, too, believe in one Church, on earth and in Heaven. As for St. Peter, I believe He set His authority with all the apostles, the actual extent of St Peter’s role, and what that place of primacy entails is a huge question for me.
The Bible is not to be taken lightly nor is it to be interpeted except by those Christ grants the authority too and personally warrants Her Teaching.
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Ok, Pat. Is that authority granted only to those who occupy the chair of the Bishop of rome?
FYI: I’m working on a document entitles “Peter: and the Formation of the papacy”…If yo’d care to share your e-mail vai a PM I’ll send you a copy of it when completed.
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Will do.
I struggle with your perspective because God used Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, the Judges ect. as single laders of the entire nation. What’s so different about using Popes?
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I’m not opposed to the leadership role of the Bishop of Rome. My question only is what is the extent of that role. Is it universal jurisdiction and infallibility (ex cathedra)? I struggle to find that either in scripture or the early councils of the Church.
God Bless you Jon,
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Oh, and you too, Pat. I always find our conversations enjoyable and thought provoking.

Jon
 
Blossoming said:
Whatever way you choose to find God I wish you well, but I hope you take another look at Catholicism. If you could only feel how joyous it makes me and how much I would like to see everyone feel that too, you would understand that I’m wishing you something good.
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I’ve found some incredibly good things about Catholicism, but I’ve also found some highly distasteful and bad things too.
I hope you take my comment here to you in that context.
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The nice thing about RCIA is that it’s a class for information and if you aren’t convinced no one will fault you for not converting. I think the best way to make a decision is to have full knowledge. In RCIA you can ask any question that you have and it will be answered. You are not required to like the answers and you might not, but at least you will know what the doctrine actually teaches.
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I’m too SCARED to attend RCIA…😦
I think this board however enjoyable, apart from AskAnApologist which is exact doctrine, is really not the best source of information if you are coming to Catholicism fresh. All you get here is opinions of what people who frequent message boards think or feel and that might differ considerably from the values and dogma of the Catholic Church and even from average people who attend RC Church. I can tell you though from my experience it’s much easier to fall in love with the pure doctrine itself, and thus the Church, than the understanding of doctrine by average people prone to rationalize their own imperfections or their honest misunderstandings or even their occasional apathy. 😛
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Best wishes.
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This is likely true. I shall keep reading and there may be a day when I can honestly convert to and stick to Catholicism.
 
PJM said:
Playing devils advocate, what specifically do you find difficult to accept? I’m happy to enter into a dialog with you,

God Bless,
Pat
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Well, I hesitate to go into specifics because I might say something contemptible, so let’s just say the Church would really have to change to get me to rejoin the flock. As in, change so it would probably become unrecognizable to most people on CAF. 😃

I should say that I know individual Catholics who are pretty cool (half my family, for starters) but the Church collectively? Er, not so much…
 
GaryTaylor said:
How so?

Peace
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There’s lots of different kinds of Christians that I’m completely cool with. If I were Catholic, I would have to stop being cool with them. From where I’m standing, the best solution would probably be one where Catholics learn to be completely cool with non-Catholics. That’s unity. There is a way to do it that doesn’t involve converting everyone to mutual submission beneath one highly evolved painfully vertical system of leadership, I’m kind of doing it now, it means a lot to me, and I’d really miss it if it was gone. Plus, in a way, I’d be turning my back on a lot of people from a wide variety of denominations that have been nothing but good to me and they don’t deserve that. Why would I go and intentionally mess things up with them by becoming Catholic? We’re doing good. Not perfect, but this is better.
 
krahnicles said:
There’s lots of different kinds of Christians that I’m completely cool with. If I were Catholic, I would have to stop being cool with them. From where I’m standing, the best solution would probably be one where Catholics learn to be completely cool with non-Catholics. That’s unity. There is a way to do it that doesn’t involve converting everyone to mutual submission beneath one highly evolved painfully vertical system of leadership, I’m kind of doing it now, it means a lot to me, and I’d really miss it if it was gone. Plus, in a way, I’d be turning my back on a lot of people from a wide variety of denominations that have been nothing but good to me and they don’t deserve that. Why would I go and intentionally mess things up with them by becoming Catholic? We’re doing good. Not perfect, but this is better.
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I don’t think I understand. In what way do you think being Catholic would stop you being cool with other non-Catholics?
 
asd72 said:
It is sad when Catholics don’t realize the beauty of their own faith. What I have discovered is how the Sacraments of Catholism are so full rather than empty. How God works through the physical AND spiritual, because we aren’t angels, we are embodied souls.
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I like this and think it needs to be repeated.
 
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