I'm not a Catholic because

[bill_Karabinus]

I find that all of these statements are very interesting but I have to say that “I AM CATHOLIC” and there is a good reason for this. I believe in the real presence of Jesus in the bread and wine. This is what the Church is centered around and everything else is secondary. I believe that Jesus gave the keys of heaven to Peter and that was indeed the start of what still stands today. I have to admit that I do not fully agree with everything the Church teaches but this does not make me a bad Catholic nor some type of heretic. We all, as children of God have the right to question certain things and that is how we grow in our faith. That is how the Church has grown over the years and if you look at the ideas and teachings of men like Aquinas you will see how thinking did in fact change. If you look at the documents of Vatican II you will see how the Church has changed. If you look at the writings of John Paul II and Benedict XVI you will see how the thinking of the Church has been shaped and subsequently changed. There have been many changes in the Church during my lifetime and I expect more before I die but no matter what I am a good Catholic and I will remain so for eternity…

 

[krahnicles]

I don’t think I understand. In what way do you think being Catholic would stop you being cool with other non-Catholics?

I would be obligated to stop calling their places of worship “churches” and start calling them…something else. Some term that you use when talking about us but we’re only dimly aware of. Whatever, it doesn’t matter, it’s not something that would happen if I went from one Protestant denomination to another. Additionally, as a Catholic, I would be hamstrung in my ability to fully participate in the life of the Church when dealing with people who aren’t Catholic. Full participation with different kinds of Christians is very important to me, and I won’t let that go.

The details of full participation: It begins with church attendance and participation in sacraments and ordinances, and it includes a mutual understanding of personal unity between us as Christians in spite of being part of different denominations, but the really important part (for me, at least) is that I’m able to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ while working with all kinds of Protestants. We can participate in this at whatever level is necessary, whether it’s a guy from one church saying something on Sunday morning at a different church, or a summer evangelism program, or a short-term missions trip where everyone lives and works together for a few weeks, or something like Youth For Christ, FCA, Campus Crusade, World Vision, World Relief, the Gideons, or any other non/inter-denominational para-church ministry, or a full-on long-term missions team that brings everyone together in cooperation with each other in establishing new churches.

If I was Catholic, I would only be able to fully participate in the life of the Church with other Catholics. And my idea of Church would exclude the only people I’ve ever had that participation with. Plus, odds are pretty good that I would go back to being Protestant before too long. I haven’t heard much in the way of details about how practicing Catholics regard those who leave the Catholic Church, but from what I gather, it’s not good. Maybe someone can fill me in on that. Whatever it is, though, it’s another reason why I’m not Catholic. I would probably have to leave anyway, and that would create an even worse situation between me and you guys.

 

[manualman]

1. I’ve found some incredibly good things about Catholicism, but I’ve also found some highly distasteful and bad things too.
2. I’m too SCARED to attend RCIA…

1. The deeper you look, the more you’ll find that the distasteful things come from human frailties rather than the beauty of divine revelation. Often times that human weakness even prevents the proper explanation and comprehension on issues people take umbrage with the Church over.
2. Don’t worry, we haven’t used the thumb screws in MONTHS now… If you’re curious and you’re starting from scratch, consider an intro book such as “Catholicism for Dummies” (avoid the Idiot’s Guide one though). Don’t be put off by the title!

This is an interesting thread and I appreciate hearing what it is that people interested enough in catholicism to read at CAF find bothersome about catholicism. Good info.

 

[Eruvande]

I guess I’m not catholic because I haven’t been able to taken a leap from interest into belief. Some things I understand the rational argument for, I’m just not sure I believe it. Plus I’m part of a fundamentalist evangelical Christian environment and am frankly terrified of the reaction of friends and family.

 

[krahnicles]

I guess I’m not catholic because I haven’t been able to taken a leap from interest into belief. Some things I understand the rational argument for, I’m just not sure I believe it. Plus I’m part of a fundamentalist evangelical Christian environment and am frankly terrified of the reaction of friends and family.

How would that compare to leaving Catholicism?

 

[Ahimsa]

I guess I’m not catholic because I haven’t been able to taken a leap from interest into belief. Some things I understand the rational argument for, I’m just not sure I believe it. Plus I’m part of a fundamentalist evangelical Christian environment and am frankly terrified of the reaction of friends and family.

Since you’re fundamentalist, you might appreciate these verses:

Matthew 10:
35 For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’****a] 37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

 

[asd72]

I would be obligated to stop calling their places of worship “churches” and start calling them…something else. Some term that you use when talking about us but we’re only dimly aware of. Whatever, it doesn’t matter, it’s not something that would happen if I went from one Protestant denomination to another. Additionally, as a Catholic, I would be hamstrung in my ability to fully participate in the life of the Church when dealing with people who aren’t Catholic. Full participation with different kinds of Christians is very important to me, and I won’t let that go.

The details of full participation: It begins with church attendance and participation in sacraments and ordinances, and it includes a mutual understanding of personal unity between us as Christians in spite of being part of different denominations, but the really important part (for me, at least) is that I’m able to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ while working with all kinds of Protestants. We can participate in this at whatever level is necessary, whether it’s a guy from one church saying something on Sunday morning at a different church, or a summer evangelism program, or a short-term missions trip where everyone lives and works together for a few weeks, or something like Youth For Christ, FCA, Campus Crusade, World Vision, World Relief, the Gideons, or any other non/inter-denominational para-church ministry, or a full-on long-term missions team that brings everyone together in cooperation with each other in establishing new churches.

If I was Catholic, I would only be able to fully participate in the life of the Church with other Catholics. And my idea of Church would exclude the only people I’ve ever had that participation with. Plus, odds are pretty good that I would go back to being Protestant before too long. I haven’t heard much in the way of details about how practicing Catholics regard those who leave the Catholic Church, but from what I gather, it’s not good. Maybe someone can fill me in on that. Whatever it is, though, it’s another reason why I’m not Catholic. I would probably have to leave anyway, and that would create an even worse situation between me and you guys.

It is true we cannot usually participate in communion in Protestant services, we can attend services though, reasons are usually being for weddings, baptisms etc of friends and family, but I do know of a lady that attends a Protestant service with her elderly mother every week. She is a dedicated Catholic, but goes to Mass as well as her mothers service.

I can though understand how difficult it must be for someone who has been very involved in Protestant Christianity to change to the Catholic church. If all your friends and family are Protestants. I never had that as I was agnostic until about 18 months ago, as are most of my friends and family, apart from a few close Muslim friends. I only briefly attended a Baptist church, so didn’t have time to get very involved before I found Catholism.

I think though when you get to a stage when you feel convinced that the Catholic church is the one that Jesus started, that conviction overrides the concerns you have in this area.

We still can have good relationships with those in other faith traditions or no faith tradition.

 

[Eruvande]

Since you’re fundamentalist, you might appreciate these verses:

Matthew 10:
35 For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’****a] 37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Point very well made. If I could make the leap to actually believing certain specifics, then this scripture would be even more compelling. Unfortunately I’m somewhat in no-man’s land with regards actual belief.

krahnicles, choosing catholicism would mean losing my friends, alienating my husband and confusing my kids. It’s no small thing as my husband is my carer, too, and I depend on him for everything - including getting to church. That’s kind of why I lurk here, hoping to be convinced that catholic teaching is true. It’s an odd place to be.

 

[PJM]

=Roy5;8473423]** I come from a mixed Catholic-Protestant heritage,** and some years ago spent time in a monastery, I was deeply interested in spirituality and looked into a variety of expressions of the Christian faith. Non-Christian religions also interested me, but I always had a wish to follow the teaching and example of Christ.

  **Gradually I began to feel most comfortable among mainline Protestantism which seems to accept differences of opinion**. The Methodists, UCC, Presbyterians, Episcopalians and some Baptists and Lutherans permit true freedom of religion. You have Bible classes where various people interpret different passages differently without being scolded or accused of 'heresy'.

**  I also have been alienated by certain other verses in the Bible.** For example, Ex. 22: 18, 20 - declaring that witches and non-believers should be killed! Or, how God supposedly ordered Joshua to commit genocide once he captured Jericho and how Saul was commanded to slaughter every remaining Amalekite. My God would never demand such outrageous atrocities.

** I also find Catholicism very tribal.** A lot seems to be made our of converts (EWTN etc). Mainline Protestant churches appear full of ex-Catholics but nothing is made of that. It’s simply like moving into another room in the Christian family home. Protestants also go from one church to another with little or no problem. Mainline denominations cooperate together through the World and National Councils of Churches. There is no sense that only ‘my church’ is the one true church. My conclusion is that doctrinal purity and church affiliation are secondary. See again Matt, 25:31ff.

** We could go on, but perhaps I’ve made my point.** Catholicism has been responsible for so much good in such areas as medicine, education, feeding the hungry, etc., and that remains very attractive. But I’m simply not able to believe doctrines that strike me as against reason and/or common sense. I need a faith that my mind can honestly embrace.

***Thanks for the candid response!

But a couple of questions if I may.***

Was Chrsit life on earth comfortable? Were the lifes of the Apostles and eary Fathers comfortable? Are you aware my friend that Christ command “to take up your Cross daily and FOLLOW ME” appears five times in the bible. The same number of times as the Eucgarist dsicourse, which is [or should be; after all is Jesus HIMSELF] the very foundation for belief in Jesus, the foundation for all Christian beliefs?

Are you aware that God [both Yahweh and Jesus] always and everywhre taught beleive in Only One God [Him /Trinue], Only One set of Faith beliefs [His as now is fulfilled by the RCC. As Jesus himself COMMANDS… the fullness of God’s Truth is found ONLY in the only set of Faith beliefs actually founded by Jesus; those of the 2,000 year Catholic Church? and that ONLY “One Church /one faith” appears over 100 times in the NT alone?

**FACT: When the NT was written there were NO OTHER CHRISTIAN CHURCHES IN EXISTENCE so everything therein MUST logically pertain to ONLY the RCC and later, only by extension to other Christian faiths.

** John.10: 16 **“And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”

Eph. 4: 1-7 “I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body [WHICH MEANS ONE CHURCH] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord,and one faith, [Meaning only One set of beliefs] one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift".

**Eph. 2:19-20 **“So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

One gravely risk there salvation by refusing to follow the lbeliefs, commnads and mandates that He alone has set and chosen. The Key to heaven given to Peter is not a myth, but an actual fact. Forgiveness of sins is to be accomplished ONLY as Christ commanded [ist. Jn.1:8-10; 1st. Jn.5:16-17; and John 20:19-23].

Many of your issues of the OT come from an improper and incomplete understanding. God does not only says we MUST believe in Him; He also says we MUST DO IT HIS WAY.

***My friend which is of greater importance. Your comfort or your eternal salvation. Show me in the Bible where it says God permits us to decide what to follow, to decide for ourselves what we must to to attain salvation. Its NOT THERE! ***

I’d be happy to discuss any perticular issues you may have. Just send me a Private Message.

God Bless you,
Pat

 

[Blossoming]

I’ve found some incredibly good things about Catholicism, but I’ve also found some highly distasteful and bad things too.

I’m too SCARED to attend RCIA…

This is likely true. I shall keep reading and there may be a day when I can honestly convert to and stick to Catholicism.

My best wishes go out to you regardless of what choice you make in future about Catholicism. Take care~

 

[arabic_catholic]

I’m not a Catholic because the Easter Vigil hasn’t arrived yet

yes me too

 

[PJM]

=JonNC;8476107]I, too, believe in one Church, on earth and in Heaven. As for St. Peter, I believe He set His authority with all the apostles, the actual extent of St Peter’s role, and what that place of primacy entails is a huge question for me.

I just emailed the information we discussed to you.

Ok, Pat. Is that authority granted only to those who occupy the chair of the Bishop of rome?

FROM THE current Code of canon Law
Art. 1.
THE ROMAN PONTIFF
Can. 331 The bishop of the Roman Church, in whom continues the office given by the Lord uniquely to Peter, the first of the Apostles, and to be transmitted to his successors, is the head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ, and the pastor of the universal Church on earth. By virtue of his office he possesses supreme, full, immediate, and universal ordinary power in the Church, which he is always able to exercise freely.

Can. 332 §1. The Roman Pontiff obtains full and supreme power in the Church by his acceptance of legitimate election together with episcopal consecration. Therefore, a person elected to the supreme pontificate who is marked with episcopal character obtains this power from the moment of acceptance. If the person elected lacks episcopal character, however, he is to be ordained a bishop immediately.

Can. 333 §1. By virtue of his office, the Roman Pontiff not only possesses power offer the universal Church but also obtains the primacy of ordinary power offer all particular churches and groups of them. Moreover, this primacy strengthens and protects the proper, ordinary, and immediate power which bishops possess in the particular churches entrusted to their care.

§2. In fulfilling the office of supreme pastor of the Church, the Roman Pontiff is always joined in communion with the other bishops and with the universal Church. He nevertheless has the right, according to the needs of the Church, to determine the manner, whether personal or collegial, of exercising this office.

§3. No appeal or recourse is permitted against a sentence or decree of the Roman Pontiff.

I’m not opposed to the leadership role of the Bishop of Rome. My question only is what is the extent of that role. Is it universal jurisdiction and infallibility (ex cathedra)? I struggle to find that either in scripture or the early councils of the Church

.

“ex-cathedra” pronouncements are rare. Usually limited to defined Dogma.s. BUT the power is effectively the same every tome he teaches [by himself or with the magisterium] on ALL matters of faith and all matters of morals. It is encombunant of the Bishops to agree with the Pope, not the other way around. From a practical aspect; it is common to have descussions prior to making an annoincement.

In receant years JP II and Benedict XVI have issued “MOTU PROPRIO” mandates. Words used in rescripts drawn up and issued by a pope on his own initiative, and not conditioned by any petitionary requests. The documents are always signed personally by a pope…on matters of liturgy practice as many bishops still insist of doing things there own way.

Jon

God Bless Jon,

Pat

 

[PJM]

=Kouyate42;8476196]I’ve found some incredibly good things about Catholicism, but I’ve also found some highly distasteful and bad things too.

I’m too SCARED to attend RCIA…

This is likely true. I shall keep reading and there may be a day when I can honestly convert to and stick to Catholicism.

So my friend,

What can I answer for you here on the FORUM? I’m VERY friendly and respectful of others views; even when I must disagree with them, I give the rreasons why.

God Bless you,
Pat

 

[PJM]

=ConstantineTG;8477196]I am a Catholic but Roman Catholics tell me I’m not. Do I count?

ABSOLUTELY!
WHY did you leave:shrug:

God Bless, I look forward to hearning back from you.

Pat

 

[PJM]

=Lokabrenna;8476305]Well, I hesitate to go into specifics because I might say something contemptible, so let’s just say the Church would really have to change to get me to rejoin the flock. As in, change so it would probably become unrecognizable to most people on CAF.

I should say that I know individual Catholics who are pretty cool (half my family, for starters) but the Church collectively? Er, not so much…

My friend your hanging around the FORUM for a reason. Be charitable but candid. I can handle it. I don’t get angry. But be clear about your issue and I’ll try to discusss them with you. If your looking for the church to change Her teachings; it’s not going to happen on matters of Faith and Morals because they are GOD"S not the property of the CC. Other issues are a maybe?

God Bless YOU:thumbsup:

Pat

 

[dingodile]

I went through a year of RCIA but declined baptism at the end of it. I struggle with agnosticism, which seems to be my spiritual center of gravity. I am miles and miles away from being able to assert with honesty that I believe the teachings of the Catholic Church as revealed by Jesus Christ.

So…no go.

 

[PJM]

=krahnicles;8477179]There’s lots of different kinds of Christians that I’m completely cool with. If I were Catholic, I would have to stop being cool with them. From where I’m standing, the best solution would probably be one where Catholics learn to be completely cool with non-Catholics. That’s unity. There is a way to do it that doesn’t involve converting everyone to mutual submission beneath one highly evolved painfully vertical system of leadership, I’m kind of doing it now, it means a lot to me, and I’d really miss it if it was gone. Plus, in a way, I’d be turning my back on a lot of people from a wide variety of denominations that have been nothing but good to me and they don’t deserve that. Why would I go and intentionally mess things up with them by becoming Catholic? We’re doing good. Not perfect, but this is better.

WELCOME TO THE FORUM!

I assume by your post that your a Christian?

Are you aware that Christ only founded one new Faith? [Mt. 16:15-19] One New Church and that is the precise reason we Catholics seem to be so bull-headed. We ARE doing it God’s way. Not modified to suit me, you, or anyone BUT God

Not one place in the entire bible does God: Yahweh or Jesus even once allow, permit, or let go unpunished beliefs in other gods, other sets of faith beliefs, or other churches.

The RCC is the Only Church and Faith founded by God Himself; as evideniced by holding the ONE “key to the kingdom” of heaven given to it personally by Jesus. The RCC is the original Bible Church and the entire NT is authored by men known today to be Catholics.

It is a historical FACT that the RCC is the One church and faith founded by Christ as no other Christian faith even existed until the GREAT schism of the Eastern catholics in 1010 AD. And The first prominate non-catholic chuch [Ahgelicans / church of England] founded by a disgruntled King Henry Eighth in the 13th. Century, was not joined by other Protestants until Luthers revolt in the 16th. Century.

John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. **So there shall be one flock, one shepherd” **

Eph. 4: 1-7 “I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body [WHICH MEANS ONE CHURCH] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, [Meaning only One set of beliefs] one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift".

Eph. 2:19-20 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

So my friend, is truning your back on many other people more important than your own salvation? :dts:

God Bless you, and I again I welcome you to the CAF Forum.
Pat

 

[andrewstx]

I don’t know if his experience is the same as mine, but I’ve heard several Catholics from my school tell me that they consider themselves Catholic before they do Christian. What they meant is that they are more concerned with following the Church than following Christ, and though I know the point of the Church is to carry forth Christ’s teachings, the problem was that they weren’t paying any thought to that. They were doing what the Church told them for the sake of the Church with no mindfulness to Christ. It was empty ritual for them, but they were alright with that.

Some friends and I started asking them tough questions, though, and with some rebuking they came to see that their motivation was in the wrong place. We weren’t looking to convert them to a different form of Christianity, so the fact that they’re actually firm in their faith now says that we accomplished something good.

I’m not Catholic because I cannot accept some very specific ideas. I know you don’t worship Mary or pray to the saints in place of God, I know that the Priest is supposed to represent God in Confession, and I generally know enough about church history and doctrine to know what the Church actually teaches. But with some of them, I see Roman influence, and I see so many people fall into empty ritualism or misplaced devotion, and I can’t join in. I know my weaknesses, and I’m the kind of person that could very easily allow it all to just become empty ritual.

On the other side, my faith is what it is because I have a community of believers around me that hold me accountable and rebuke me for any missteps I take. They encourage me to read the Bible (and they’ve succeeded in convincing me to make it daily), we worship together and raise our voices (hymns, contemporary stuff, anything goes, really), pray together, and do life together. The church itself is small, fairly traditional, and very focused on active faith. There are very few lukewarm Christians there. It’s a Wesleyan Methodist church, so the liturgy isn’t particularly liberal.

I appreciate the Catholic Church. Many of my close friends are Catholic. I’ve learned about it for the past year through research and reading. But with my vulnerabilities and spiritual weaknesses, it’s best for me to stay in the solid crowd that I’m already in.

In my experience many of the people who call themselves Christian without qualifiers do so becuase they beleive that the only thing you have to do to become Christian is to “get saved” Evangelical Christian and so often they seem to think of themselves as the only Christians.

Witness the thousands of media outlets, schools, and bookstores that call themselves Christian only.

But there are differences of beleif between the various denominations, and I think they matter.

I call myself a Catholic Christian because there are the differences,and I don’t think “getting saved” and saying a “sinner’s prayer” is all there is to it.

I think the sacraments especially Baptism matters and are vital. I don’t know if Wesylian Methodists beleive in the Nicene Creed, but it says “one baptism for the forgiveness of sins”. Notice it says for and not after as just a symbol after you “get saved”.

BTW we don’t worship Mary or put her or any of the saints in the place of God.

 

[The_Wild_Goose]

I am not a Catholic for the same reasons I am no longer a Protestant. When I look at the Jesus revealed in the New Testament, I can’t help but think He would have a hard time being “Catholic” or “Protestant” either. The Church (whatever form you wish to insert) seems awesome at creating Pharisees (much like the old convenant-Temple) but I rarely see someone who truely looks and acts like they were discipled to be like their Savior. We end up looking like each other and call that “Transformation” even though none of us look at all like Him. We love the comfort of our church and all it’s dogma/ doctrine but we never seem to get what those early followers of our Lord were willing to give up Everything for. I have completely walked away from “The Church” and have never had so many opertunities to share the Love of our Amazing God with the people of this world He came to die for. Ever wonder why Rev. 3:20 was written to the church? The only honest answer is that He is outside that body and would like us to allow Him to enter into relationship with us again.

Don

 

[Agape_Thom]

I am a former Catholic. I am not a Catholic today because many years ago I was able to see and understand that God was offering me a deeper and more personal relationship with Him than was possible through the Catholic Church. I have never regreted my decision to leave the Catholic Church, and I hold no animosity toward it.