I'm not a Catholic because

[krahnicles]

So PJM. How do you know God has saved and is saving you? Is this based on something that God actually did, or is it based on something that you believe is supposed to happen but you never had any reality-based assurance that God did something, apart from your implicit belief in the infallible efficacy of Catholic sacraments?

Quick addendum: One more reason why I’m not Catholic. Basing my Christian identity on things that God has actually done to me is way better than getting baptized, observing that God (evidently) did absolutely nothing based on that cue, and forcing myself to believe God did something to me while keeping it a complete secret from me.

 

[CopticChristian]

Thanks!

Yep.

Yes. That Faith is called Christianity. Do you understand the difference between Christianity and Catholicism?

Perhaps you seem bull-headed because you are bull-headed, and there actually is something wrong with the way you’re doing things.

The way Catholics interact with Protestants seems to have improved to some extent, but it’s still not the kind of thing that suits God.

Believe me, I’m rolling my eyes right back at you.

There is one Key to the House of David, and this is different from the Keys to the Kingdom (plural). You are most incorrect in equating the two. Look up all the places where the Key to the House of David is talked about, and you’ll find out exactly where that key is. It’s only mentioned two or three times, but those references should make it clear.

I don’t think either of these things are entirely accurate. The RCC isn’t even the oldest of the apostolic churches, and it’s certainly not the only one. Also, you have to differentiate between Jewish Christians who favor the Tanakh as the basis for canonicity and Greek/Roman Christians who favor the Septuagint in some way, don’t you? Or do you just refer to all of them as catholic?

I know there were a few other ones. Surely you know this too- but you wouldn’t intentionally disseminate false information, would you? Christianity did exist outside the Roman Empire while there was still a Roman Empire, you know.

Two questions: How would you describe the Archbishop of Canterbury? Was he a disgruntled archbishop? And number two- wouldn’t it be more accurate to say German Catholics joined them in the process of leaving the Catholic Church and becoming Protestant?

I just found out one other thing, too- the disgruntled king to whom you refer, along with Edward VI, broke away from Rome temporarily. It was Queen Elizabeth I that broke away permanently, so don’t you think she should get a little bit of attention as well?

Bonus question number three: Was Queen Elizabeth I a disgruntled queen?

It’s one body (or CHURCH) made up of Christians. Could you act a little bit more like it is actually one body? That means focusing more on unity with all Christians (THE WHOLE BODY) and less on trying to make everyone think you’re extra-special. When you do that, you’re not really acting in the best interest of unity. You’re doing the exact opposite.

Does it help when I put things in all caps? I really want to emphasize things like THE WHOLE BODY and ALL OF CHRISTIANITY and NOT JUST ROMAN CATHOLICS.

My salvation is doing just fine, but since you ask, that is of primary importance. God has done a wonderful job taking care of that, though, so that allows me to focus on other things.

How’s your salvation doing? If you were able to find some way to enjoy full Christian unity with Protestants without anyone being forced to convert from one denomination to another, do you think that would threaten your salvation in any way?

I’m very serious about this question, btw. If you want to shorten up your response and address just one thing from this post, that should be the one.

I am not worried about anyone’s salvation. I am only worried about the truth. I am concerned that people that call themselves christian and do not belong to the Catholic Church and appear to be impudent do not realize their roots. Let’s start with the Coptic Church. St. Mark the apostle founded the Coptic Church and Coptics are part of the Catholic Church. Where was your church founded? Tell me…what church do you attend?

 

[CopticChristian]

Quick addendum: One more reason why I’m not Catholic. Basing my Christian identity on things that God has actually done to me is way better than getting baptized, observing that God (evidently) did absolutely nothing based on that cue, and forcing myself to believe God did something to me while keeping it a complete secret from me.

I do not think you are charitable. I base this on your response to this posting on not wanting to go watch Hillsong and wanting to be Catholic.

As I sat watching this morning’s Hillsong program on channel Ten(which follows the Catholic mass program… go figure!) , I seemed to realize another reason why I’m not protestant anymore…

I personally don’t believe in 2 hour sermons… yep. I don’t believe in them. Why? because I think the Gospel to personal interpretation ratio is very very weighted toward the PI end of the scale… Very little gospel, very much of Personal Interpretations.

The best way to receive the gospel(at least during mass) is “Straight up” with no added ingredients…

This always brings to my mind the whole “False Christs and prophets” teaching.

I don’t like receiving the gospel and other readings/teachings from the bible in the middle of some gigantic 2 hour tirade which can oft fudge the simple message the writers tried to get across. i lkike the Straight up approach… the Catholic way of doing it.

This is your response.

This part makes it sound like you’re choosing your place of worship based on personal preference.

Your likes and dislikes happen to match up with something like a Mass rather than something like a Sunday morning sermon, so…that’s why you tune in to channel 10 a bit earlier.

Is that really what it’s all about? Is that really why you’re Catholic? Or is it more of an incidental detail that you enjoy in the midst of all the real reasons why you’re there?/QUOTE]

You dissented and then mocked the posting. This is not charitable. But above Faith and Hope, Love abides…

You posted elsewhere…

The details of full participation: It begins with church attendance and participation in sacraments and ordinances, and it includes a mutual understanding of personal unity between us as Christians in spite of being part of different denominations, but the really important part (for me, at least) is that I’m able to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ while working with all kinds of Protestants. We can participate in this at whatever level is necessary,

whether it’s a guy from one church saying something on Sunday morning at a different church, or a summer evangelism program, or a short-term missions trip where everyone lives and works together for a few weeks, or something like Youth For Christ, FCA, Campus Crusade, World Vision, World Relief, the Gideons, or any other non/inter-denominational para-church ministry, or a full-on long-term missions team that brings everyone together in cooperation with each other in establishing new churches.

This is what you find enjoyable, I personally think it is a waste of time for me, but not for you…however in your dissention you hypocritically want for yourself what you mock another for. I could tell you that I would never participate in Campus Crusade for the following reason. The sinners prayer as you know is not biblical. You may also not know that the Campus Crusade sinners prayer is copyrighted. Wow…copyrighted christianity…did Jesus have a patent on love and forgiveness…

Love God with your whole heart, mind, body
Love others as I have loved you…

That is what He said…

Christians believe that on our own we can do nothing, even respond to God…many Protestant believe that by hearing words spoken by a Preacher you are moved to a sinners prayer and accept Jesus…you call a Baptism a cue for God and it does not matter if it is water or words…you believe that on the cue of the words spoken and the cue of your confession God does something to you…Paul warned me of people like you…do you who say don’t mock…mock…blind guide…

1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Amen

 

[joe370]

krahnicles - Because we’re supposed to be unified. How would you say our unity is doing?

Just curious:

How do you think it’s going?

Once again, the Keys to the Kingdom are plural whereas the Key to the House of David is singular. Did you look up the references to the singular key yet? If you did, you should know who has that key and where it is.

Every Christian belonging to the CC believes that it is God Who is ultimately in charge, which is why God is the ONE who holds the key of David. After all, Jesus is the great Davidic King.

Isaiah 22 is referring to the keys carried by the chief steward who regulated the affairs of the entire household, for the Davidic king. There were actual keys regarding the OT kingdom. The chief steward didn’t walk around with just one key. Agreed? No doubt, the Davidic king always had a set of keys. LOL…

No dear friend, you’re losing focus and you’re confused. In the quote immediately preceding this one, you say the CC holds the ONE key to the Kingdom…

So Peter was the only one to possess the keys to the kingdom…and upon his demise, all Christians, from the 1st century to the present, now possess the keys to the kingdom,?

This was primarily in reference to early Christians who favored the Tanakh as the basis for the OT, especially the early Jewish converts to Christianity. So PJM, when Jerome spent a good deal of his early adulthood near Jerusalem studying Hebrew and living with a group of Jewish converts to Christianity (and in the process, joining them in favor of the Tanakh as the basis for the OT canon), what label would you affix to those Christians if not “catholics”?

For 1000 years all Christ followers were Christians belonging to the Catholic Church, at which point Jesus’ one church divided into the CC in the east and the CC in the west, until the 16th century, at which point certain Christians belonging to the CC in the west protested and eventually left the CC and started their own unique movements which eventually became established churches, and they couldn’t agree on many things, such as the Eucharist, which was the inevitable cause of more and more division…

Last I checked, kings never had the right to unilaterally jerk an archbishop around and force him to break communion with Rome…

The following is a scriptural basis for excommunication. How does it work in protestantism considering the fact that scripture alone (no church teaching office) - is the Christians final arbiter via individual interpretation? I didn’t get it as a former protestant:

“And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.”

And since all Christians belong to that one body (and also that ONE CHURCH), this clearly means Christ’s One Body and Christ’s One Church extend WAAAAAY beyond Roman Catholicism.

Hypothetically, as a sola scriptura proponent, if I were to start a 21st century church and deny core protestant teachings such as the Trinity, I could still rightfully claim to belong to the One Body?

Tell you what. Ask me what my logic is…

I was just curious, if you don’t mind me asking:

Do you defer to a particular church when it comes to, say, the interpretation of scripture, or simply trust your own discernment regarding doctrinal truth?

 

[joe370]

Quick addendum: One more reason why I’m not Catholic. Basing my Christian identity on things that God has actually done to me is way better than getting baptized, observing that God (evidently) did absolutely nothing based on that cue, and forcing myself to believe God did something to me while keeping it a complete secret from me.

I am glad that God has moved you to believe in Him. Is baptism necessary in your opinion?

*"Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.” *

 

[joe370]

Quick addendum: One more reason why I’m not Catholic. Basing my Christian identity on things that God has actually done to me is way better than getting baptized, observing that God (evidently) did absolutely nothing based on that cue, and forcing myself to believe God did something to me while keeping it a complete secret from me.

Quick addendum:

Perhaps the chief steward did in fact actually walk around with just a big key, either on his shoulder or attached to his shoulder by a belt or strap, worn as a sign of authority, but I am not sure why it matters if the word “keys” is used rather than “key”? Both convey the same thing - authority over the king’s house, and Jesus’ kingdom and house on earth ("…in the household of God. This is the church of the living God") - is His church, even if one thinks of that kingdom and house as all of the autonomous churches on earth, as one house.

The point is:

In Isaiah 22, the key carried by the chief steward of the kingdom was an ensign of authority to open and shut, in other words, to let in or keep out of the king’s house. The same language is used regarding just Peter, and in both cases, God is the ultimate key holder.

Jesus holding the key of David, which just makes sense, certainly does not negate the authority of the keys He gave to Simon, renamed Peter, as the chief steward of His church. What would be the relevance/point of giving Peter the keys and saying, “whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven” - and then taking them right back?

*"These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut… *

 

[Telestia]

In my experience many of the people who call themselves Christian without qualifiers do so becuase they beleive that the only thing you have to do to become Christian is to “get saved” Evangelical Christian and so often they seem to think of themselves as the only Christians.

Well, I am an evangelical Christian, I do not know how you came to the conclusion that Evangelical Christians think of themselves as the only Christians. I have yet to meet one who thinks that, but I am sure there are at least a few. I believe many Catholics are Christians. However, I have met many Catholics who believe that only their Catholic Church is the only true Church of Jesus Christ.

Witness the thousands of media outlets, schools, and bookstores that call themselves Christian only.

Well, we are Christians only. We are not muslims, nor Jews, Secular Humanists nor any other religion. How about Catholics. Do not all Catholics also consider themselves Christians.

But tell me, do you believe that there are many genuine non-Catholic Christians?

But there are differences of beleif between the various denominations, and I think they matter.

I call myself a Catholic Christian because there are the differences,and I don’t think “getting saved” and saying a “sinner’s prayer” is all there is to it.

And I agree with you. There is the receiving of the indwelling Holy Spirit by which we enter into a personal relationship with God, with Whom we talk with Him and walk with Him, daily.

"I think the sacraments especially Baptism matters and are vital. I don’t know if Wesylian Methodists beleive in the Nicene Creed, but it says “one baptism for the forgiveness of sins”. Notice it says for and not after as just a symbol after you “get saved”.

Yes, we agree with the Catholics that Baptism is very important, for through Baptism we enter into the protections of the New Covenant and the New Laws of Jesus Christ by becoming true Christians.

Let me ask you a question Andrew, if we evangelicals enter Heaven en mass - as evangelicals, would you be disappointed?

BTW we don’t worship Mary or put her or any of the saints in the place of God.

Well that is good.

I would never be disrespectful toward the woman who was Jesus mother on earth. She was truly blessed to be the one to give birth to Jesus, and for Mary and Joseph to be the earthly parents raising the boy named Jesus, our Messiah…

But I also believe Mary bore many children with Joseph, her husband, as mentioned in the NT, because the Greek words clearly mean that Jesus had male and female - brothers and sisters. I see this as a wonderful thing.

I do not believe that Catholic saints are omniscient and omnipresent

I do not believe Peter is the chief cornerstone of the Christian Church. Jesus only called Simon ‘Petros’, meaning a rock. Then Jesus said that on this ROCK (Petra) I will build my Church. That Rock is Jesus, and Jesus used the name Petra to highlight that the Rock is Himself, not Petros, upon whom the church will be built upon. as foretold, and acknowledged by Peter in his first letter. Peter has this honor because he was the apostle who first acknowledged Jesus as the Messiah.

I do believe that we are not save because of our perfect knowledge or deeds.

So we do have our differences, but both Catholic and and Evangelicals will be saved by simply by accepting that Jesus is the perfect Lamb of God whose Blood has washed away all our sins for all time, and whom enter into a daily fellowship with God, who will transform our very nature that we may do the good that God has always wanted us to do. And by following 1 John 1-10.

And we also have the Laws of Jesus Christ of the New Covenant to guide our walk with God and with each other. It is a joy to be a Christian.

 

[CopticChristian]

Well, I am an evangelical Christian, I do not know how you came to the conclusion that Evangelical Christians think of themselves as the only Christians. I have yet to meet one who thinks that, but I am sure there are at least a few. I believe many Catholics are Christians. However, I have met many Catholics who believe that only their Catholic Church is the only true Church of Jesus Christ.

Well, we are Christians only. We are not muslims, nor Jews, Secular Humanists nor any other religion. How about Catholics. Do not all Catholics also consider themselves Christians.

But tell me, do you believe that there are many genuine non-Catholic Christians?

And I agree with you. There is the receiving of the indwelling Holy Spirit by which we enter into a personal relationship with God, with Whom we talk with Him and walk with Him, daily.

Yes, we agree with the Catholics that Baptism is very important, for through Baptism we enter into the protections of the New Covenant and the New Laws of Jesus Christ by becoming true Christians.

Let me ask you a question Andrew, if we evangelicals enter Heaven en mass - as evangelicals, would you be disappointed?

Well that is good.

I would never be disrespectful toward the woman who was Jesus mother on earth. She was truly blessed to be the one to give birth to Jesus, and for Mary and Joseph to be the earthly parents raising the boy named Jesus, our Messiah…

But I also believe Mary bore many children with Joseph, her husband, as mentioned in the NT, because the Greek words clearly mean that Jesus had male and female - brothers and sisters. I see this as a wonderful thing.

I do not believe that Catholic saints are omniscient and omnipresent

I do not believe Peter is the chief cornerstone of the Christian Church. Jesus only called Simon ‘Petros’, meaning a rock. Then Jesus said that on this ROCK (Petra) I will build my Church. That Rock is Jesus, and Jesus used the name Petra to highlight that the Rock is Himself, not Petros, upon whom the church will be built upon. as foretold, and acknowledged by Peter in his first letter. Peter has this honor because he was the apostle who first acknowledged Jesus as the Messiah.

I do believe that we are not save because of our perfect knowledge or deeds.

So we do have our differences, but both Catholic and and Evangelicals will be saved by simply by accepting that Jesus is the perfect Lamb of God whose Blood has washed away all our sins for all time, and whom enter into a daily fellowship with God, who will transform our very nature that we may do the good that God has always wanted us to do. And by following 1 John 1-10.

And we also have the Laws of Jesus Christ of the New Covenant to guide our walk with God and with each other. It is a joy to be a Christian.

How generous you believe some Catholics are Christians. I am reminded of the notion of baseball and the World Series not played by the World. How keen the Western mind is to define the world by its thoughts believed to be of origin.

If you meet any Catholics that do not believe that their Church is not the ony Church of Jesus Christ refer them to this site, Catholic Answers can fix that.

Salvation is accomplished by Faith, and as Paul says “obedient Faith” Faith in Action…ya gotta believe ya gotta do something ceptin…sittin…on…yur rug readin a book…blevin…ya is blevin…and gettin…what ya think ya is gettin and gettin saved…

 

[joe370]

Hey Telestia , you said:

I believe many Catholics are Christians.

What are the rest if not Christians???

However, I have met many Catholics who believe that only their Catholic Church is the only true Church of Jesus Christ.

If the CC is the historical church which began on Pentecost then it is fair to say that Jesus is the founder of the CC. If the CC’s founder goes by a different name, started at a different time in history, then that’s cool, but I am still waiting for anyone to demonstrate that, as a historical fact. Please feel free to prove me wrong? As a former protestant I tried to prove that the CC was a man-made church but simply couldn’t come up with a name other than Jesus, and a date other than circa AD 33, which is why I am a catholic today.

In the most literal, historical and strictest sense every wonderful protestant church has a founder who’s name is not Jesus and the oldest protestant church dates back only to Martin Luther, the church to which I once belonged, and in no way am I impugning in any way or suggesting anything negative about any protestant church. I’m just stating the historical facts.

Many believe that anyone can start a church and call their church the true Church of Jesus Christ and that’s fine by me. It just doesn’t make any sense to me. No biggie…

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Added this to the Hot Topics email for the week.
Don’t make me regret it!

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[dingodile]

Hey dingodile, I am not sure what “unchurched” means but anyway…:

It just means that I’m unbaptized (I think. Can’t be sure.) and not formally associated with any church.

Do you believe that Jesus left His church, on Pentecost (which ever church you believe that to be) - with the means to inerrantly discern doctrinal truth and interpret sacred scripture when conflicts arise, until His return - via the perpetual guidance of the holy spirit?

No.

 

[Miriam1947]

I used to have the same kinds of doubts as a former agnostic, long ago, (specifically Noah’s ark) - that was until I realized:

To doubt is the greatest insult to God’s divinity.

If God can create the infinite universe (at least from our perspective) - out of absolutely nothing, then anything is possible for God, which includes preserving truth when similar stories (Sumerian stories) - compete with God’s truth. It’s impossible to know who borrowed from whom but remember, Sumeria is nothing more than a historical footnote while Judaism which culminated with Jesus’ church (Christianity) - has continued to preserve, since the time of Sumeria, and maintain one of the greatest miracles:

**Biblical unity. Consider the following:

The bible was not written all at once; far from it. The bible was written by people who lived on different continents,employing at least 3 different languages, over a period of about 1500 years, by about 40 different authors who did not even know one another, all of which had different educations, backgrounds, and professions e.g. kings, shepherds, scientists, attorneys, a general, fishermen, priests, and a physician - and miraculously their teachings, as a whole, amazingly remain in harmony with one another. That’s pretty cool and something Sumeria cannot even compare to brother! The Bible reads as if it was written by one great mind:

The Mind of God, the creator of all that is visible, from NOTHING. Phew…**

Good luck on your journey my friend…

This.

 

[Telestia]

How generous you believe some Catholics are Christians. I am reminded of the notion of baseball and the World Series not played by the World. How keen the Western mind is to define the world by its thoughts believed to be of origin.

If you meet any Catholics that do not believe that their Church is not the ony Church of Jesus Christ refer them to this site, Catholic Answers can fix that.

Salvation is accomplished by Faith, and as Paul says “obedient Faith” Faith in Action…ya gotta believe ya gotta do something ceptin…sittin…on…yur rug readin a book…blevin…ya is blevin…and gettin…what ya think ya is gettin and gettin saved…

Do you really believe that all Catholics who have received the applicable Catholic sacraments are Christians? Is this the Catholic formula for being a Christian?

My obedient faith is that I believe God, and I have accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and have received the blood of Jesus Christ which has washed away all my sins for all time, and I received the indwelling Holy Spirit whom works in me and all true Christians all things to the good to who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, by whom all our sins have been washed away by the blood of this perfect Lamb of God. I am in fellowship with God and all true Christians regardless of their denominations. And God will not lose me.

And yes, I do have some wonderful Christian friends whom are Catholic.

And if i remember correctly, there are some statements in the Catholic magisterial teachings that there are many genuine Christians apart from the Catholic Church.

 

[Stephen_C]

Do you really believe that all Catholics who have received the applicable Catholic sacraments are Christians? Is this the Catholic formula for being a Christian?

My obedient faith is that I believe God, and I have accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and have received the blood of Jesus Christ which has washed away all my sins for all time, and I received the indwelling Holy Spirit whom works in me and all true Christians all things to the good to who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, by whom all our sins have been washed away by the blood of this perfect Lamb of God. I am in fellowship with God and all true Christians regardless of their denominations. And God will not lose me.

And yes, I do have some wonderful Christian friends whom are Catholic.

And if i remember correctly, there are some statements in the Catholic magisterial teachings that there are many genuine Christians apart from the Catholic Church.

Short answer: Being Baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit makes you Christian. Whether you are a good or bad Christian…that is a whole nother story…

 

[Telestia]

Hey Telestia , you said: "I believe many Catholics are Christians. "

What are the rest if not Christians???

Well, in reply to your question, I’ll give two examples of Catholics who received the Sacraments, whom I believe were not Christians at all.

Al Capone was a Catholic all during his lifetime, received baptism, communion, confirmation, wedding vows, and perhaps even last rites by a Priest. I ask you, was Al Capone truly a Christian? Maybe on his death bed, but I know nothing about that.

And what about the Spanish conquistadors and their soldiers who came to the Caribean looting, raping, enslaving and murdering the inhabitants, as in the words of a true Christian, Father Antonio Montesinos, he preached a sermon at Santo Domingo in which he warned the conquistadors they were all in mortal sin because of the cruel way they were oppressing innocent people. He stated:

“Tell me, by what right do you hold these Indians
in such cruel and horrible servitude?
By what authority did you make unprovoked war
on these people, living in peace and quiet on their land,
and with unheard-of savagery
kill and consume so great a number of them?
Why do you keep them worn out and down-trodden,
without feeding them or tending their illnesses,
so that they die-or rather you kill them-
by reason of the heavy labor you lay upon them,
to get gold every day?
What care do you take to have them taught
to know their God and Maker, to be baptized,
to hear Mass and keep their Sundays and holy days?
Are they not men? Have they no soul, no reason?
Are you not required to love them as you love yourselves?
Do you understand this? Do you not feel it?
How can you be sunk so deep in unfeeling sleep?”

In 1512 or 1513, Justin martyr wrote that once you reach the Bahamas, one does not need to use a compass anymore, in order to get to Hispaniola. The crew merely needs to follow the bodies of the native inhabitants lying in the waters.

If the CC is the historical church which began on Pentecost then it is fair to say that Jesus is the founder of the CC. If the CC’s founder goes by a different name, started at a different time in history, then that’s cool, but I am still waiting for anyone to demonstrate that, as a historical fact. Please feel free to prove me wrong? As a former protestant I tried to prove that the CC was a man-made church but simply couldn’t come up with a name other than Jesus, and a date other than circa AD 33, which is why I am a catholic today.

In the most literal, historical and strictest sense every wonderful protestant church has a founder who’s name is not Jesus and the oldest protestant church dates back only to Martin Luther, the church to which I once belonged, and in no way am I impugning in any way or suggesting anything negative about any protestant church. I’m just stating the historical facts.

Many believe that anyone can start a church and call their church the true Church of Jesus Christ and that’s fine by me. It just doesn’t make any sense to me. No biggie…

In the first century there were Christian Churches in other parts of the world apart from The Christian Church in the Roman Empire. There were no Popes in those days. I believe at least two apostles went to India and perhaps as far as China. Christian Churches sprang up throughout Asia apart from the activities happening in the Roman Empire.

By the time Marco Polo trekked all the way to China, He found Christians and Christian Church’s apart from Catholicism. As it turned out, Christian women in these lands were highly prized as wives. Genghis Khan (perhaps it was his son Kublai Khan) told Marco Polo that Christianity was favored in the land. Marco Polo wanted him to make Christianity the official religion. The Emperor stated that he could not do that because his realm was vast with many different peoples with different religions, and they accepted his rule as long as he did not interfere with their personal traditional beliefs and customs. Then the Emperor informed Marco Polo, to send 200 evangelist to convert all the peoples to Christianity, and that the peoples may be converted to Christianity.

Marco Polo returned to Rome and informed the Pope of the Emperors’ request, the Pope sent 2 missionary priests, one whom died along the way. But the point I’m raising is that there are true Christians apart from the Catholic Church.

And Joe, I am a Christian in accord with Gospel of Jesus Christ, and I equally accept genuine believers of the Catholic Church as my Christian brothers and sisters also. Why divide us?

 

[Telestia]

Short answer: Being Baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit makes you Christian. Whether you are a good or bad Christian…that is a whole nother story…

I can not agree with this. To be a Christian, one must accept and live the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and keep the 3 Laws of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.

 

[Ahimsa]

In 1512 or 1513, Justin martyr wrote that once you reach the Bahamas…

Justin Martyr the Saint died around 165. Was there another Justin Martyr of the 16th century?

 

[CopticChristian]

Do you really believe that all Catholics who have received the applicable Catholic sacraments are Christians? Is this the Catholic formula for being a Christian?

My obedient faith is that I believe God, and I have accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and have received the blood of Jesus Christ which has washed away all my sins for all time, and I received the indwelling Holy Spirit whom works in me and all true Christians all things to the good to who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, by whom all our sins have been washed away by the blood of this perfect Lamb of God. I am in fellowship with God and all true Christians regardless of their denominations. And God will not lose me.

And yes, I do have some wonderful Christian friends whom are Catholic.

And if i remember correctly, there are some statements in the Catholic magisterial teachings that there are many genuine Christians apart from the Catholic Church.

You have to understand that this is the Church founded by Christ and the rules are not your rules. It is no formula. Protestants and the likes of you are late comers, welcome to join, not rule or formula makers. Consider this…the Prodigal son was always a son…and the likes of you and Catholics will always be part of the family.

I understand your formula however it is consistent with the Universal Church however just know that the notion of being in a Relationship and Fellowship with Christ is a late Formula concocted by Protestant thought. Welcome home someday.

 

[CopticChristian]

Well, in reply to your question, I’ll give two examples of Catholics who received the Sacraments, whom I believe were not Christians at all.

Al Capone was a Catholic all during his lifetime, received baptism, communion, confirmation, wedding vows, and perhaps even last rites by a Priest. I ask you, was Al Capone truly a Christian? Maybe on his death bed, but I know nothing about that.

And what about the Spanish conquistadors and their soldiers who came to the Caribean looting, raping, enslaving and murdering the inhabitants, as in the words of a true Christian, Father Antonio Montesinos, he preached a sermon at Santo Domingo in which he warned the conquistadors they were all in mortal sin because of the cruel way they were oppressing innocent people. He stated:

“Tell me, by what right do you hold these Indians
in such cruel and horrible servitude?
By what authority did you make unprovoked war
on these people, living in peace and quiet on their land,
and with unheard-of savagery
kill and consume so great a number of them?
Why do you keep them worn out and down-trodden,
without feeding them or tending their illnesses,
so that they die-or rather you kill them-
by reason of the heavy labor you lay upon them,
to get gold every day?
What care do you take to have them taught
to know their God and Maker, to be baptized,
to hear Mass and keep their Sundays and holy days?
Are they not men? Have they no soul, no reason?
Are you not required to love them as you love yourselves?
Do you understand this? Do you not feel it?
How can you be sunk so deep in unfeeling sleep?”

In 1512 or 1513, Justin martyr wrote that once you reach the Bahamas, one does not need to use a compass anymore, in order to get to Hispaniola. The crew merely needs to follow the bodies of the native inhabitants lying in the waters.

In the first century there were Christian Churches in other parts of the world apart from The Christian Church in the Roman Empire. There were no Popes in those days. I believe at least two apostles went to India and perhaps as far as China. Christian Churches sprang up throughout Asia apart from the activities happening in the Roman Empire.

By the time Marco Polo trekked all the way to China, He found Christians and Christian Church’s apart from Catholicism. As it turned out, Christian women in these lands were highly prized as wives. Genghis Khan (perhaps it was his son Kublai Khan) told Marco Polo that Christianity was favored in the land. Marco Polo wanted him to make Christianity the official religion. The Emperor stated that he could not do that because his realm was vast with many different peoples with different religions, and they accepted his rule as long as he did not interfere with their personal traditional beliefs and customs. Then the Emperor informed Marco Polo, to send 200 evangelist to convert all the peoples to Christianity, and that the peoples may be converted to Christianity.

Marco Polo returned to Rome and informed the Pope of the Emperors’ request, the Pope sent 2 missionary priests, one whom died along the way. But the point I’m raising is that there are true Christians apart from the Catholic Church.

And Joe, I am a Christian in accord with Gospel of Jesus Christ, and I equally accept genuine believers of the Catholic Church as my Christian brothers and sisters also. Why divide us?

Judas was an Apostle and he fell.

Look…one of the Fathers of the Catholic Church wrote wonderful things until he became a heretic…Tertullian

Knox, Zwingli, Calvin, Luther were all Catholic and are the source of your Protestant thought and they were Catholic…their heretical thinking produced Protestant thought…

Why must you judge the worst for the best. Christ is King. He has subjects. Mother Theresa, people like that are what you might want to consider…not Knox, Zwingli, Calvin and the like.

 

[CopticChristian]

I can not agree with this. To be a Christian, one must accept and live the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and keep the 3 Laws of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.

Hold this thought in your head. I agree. You are not separated by mother Church and the truths of Christianity by what you believe but what you deny and here is a perfect example.