I'm not a Catholic because

[Telestia]

Justin Martyr the Saint died around 165. Was there another Justin Martyr of the 16th century?

I actually meant Spanish 16th century Historian Peter Martyr

In 1516, Spanish historian Peter Martyr wrote: “… a ship without compass, chart, or guide, but only following the trail of dead Indians who had been thrown from the ships could find its way from the Bahamas to Hispaniola.”

He documented more horrors, but there is no need to repeat them here.

 

[SteveVH]

Well, in reply to your question, I’ll give two examples of Catholics who received the Sacraments, whom I believe were not Christians at all.

Al Capone was a Catholic all during his lifetime, received baptism, communion, confirmation, wedding vows, and perhaps even last rites by a Priest. I ask you, was Al Capone truly a Christian? Maybe on his death bed, but I know nothing about that.

And what about the Spanish conquistadors and their soldiers who came to the Caribean looting, raping, enslaving and murdering the inhabitants, as in the words of a true Christian, Father Antonio Montesinos, he preached a sermon at Santo Domingo in which he warned the conquistadors they were all in mortal sin because of the cruel way they were oppressing innocent people. He stated:

“Tell me, by what right do you hold these Indians
in such cruel and horrible servitude?
By what authority did you make unprovoked war
on these people, living in peace and quiet on their land,
and with unheard-of savagery
kill and consume so great a number of them?
Why do you keep them worn out and down-trodden,
without feeding them or tending their illnesses,
so that they die-or rather you kill them-
by reason of the heavy labor you lay upon them,
to get gold every day?
What care do you take to have them taught
to know their God and Maker, to be baptized,
to hear Mass and keep their Sundays and holy days?
Are they not men? Have they no soul, no reason?
Are you not required to love them as you love yourselves?
Do you understand this? Do you not feel it?
How can you be sunk so deep in unfeeling sleep?”

In the first century there were Christian Churches in other parts of the world apart from The Christian Church in the Roman Empire. There were no Popes in those days. I believe at least two apostles went to India and perhaps as far as China. Christian Churches sprang up throughout Asia apart from the activities happening in the Roman Empire.

By the time Marco Polo trekked all the way to China, He found Christians and Christian Church’s apart from Catholicism. As it turned out, Christian women in these lands were highly prized as wives. Genghis Khan (perhaps it was his son Kublai Khan) told Marco Polo that Christianity was favored in the land. Marco Polo wanted him to make Christianity the official religion. The Emperor stated that he could not do that because his realm was vast with many different peoples with different religions, and they accepted his rule as long as he did not interfere with their personal traditional beliefs and customs. Then the Emperor informed Marco Polo, to send 200 evangelist to convert all the peoples to Christianity, and that the peoples may be converted to Christianity.

Marco Polo returned to Rome and informed the Pope of the Emperors’ request, the Pope sent 2 missionary priests, one whom died along the way. But the point I’m raising is that there are true Christians apart from the Catholic Church.

And Joe, I am a Christian in accord with Gospel of Jesus Christ, and I equally accept genuine believers of the Catholic Church as my Christian brothers and sisters also. Why divide us?

I have always found it strange that people will point to churches in different parts of the world in the first century as some kind of proof that there was not just one Church. This is exactly why the Church became known as the Catholic Church; it was universal. The Apostles were charged with preaching the Gospel to the whole world and they did just that. The Catholic Church continues this mission today. The Christian Church for the first 1500 years was unified in its basic beliefs. The eastern schism in 1054 was a matter of disputes concerning leadership, not dogma or doctrine. Those who differed in dogma or doctrine were named heretics.

Christ founded one Church. There is no other “Christian Church” than the Catholic Church. Notice, I have not said “Roman” Catholic. We include the eastern rites as well under the Catholic umbrella. All others would properly be called “ecclesial communities” and each of them embrace one or more heresies which separate them from one, true Church.

I actually even have a problem with the term “Catholic Christian” as if it could be interepreted any other way, or as if it is just another denomination. The Catholic Church is not a Christian denomination. All non-Catholic, Christian organizations are, by definition, denominations of the Catholic Church since it was the original from which they divided. The entire idea that one would have to qualify the term “Catholic” with the term “Christian” is absolutely laughable. What is even more laughable is for one to suggest, under the guise of being charitable, that “some” Catholics may qualify as Christians while judging the Catholic Church by its worst members (i.e. Al Capone, the Spanish conquistadors, etc.).

 

[Telestia]

You have to understand that this is the Church founded by Christ and the rules are not your rules. It is no formula. Protestants and the likes of you are late comers, welcome to join, not rule or formula makers. Consider this…the Prodigal son was always a son…and the likes of you and Catholics will always be part of the family.

I understand your formula however it is consistent with the Universal Church however just know that the notion of being in a Relationship and Fellowship with Christ is a late Formula concocted by Protestant thought. Welcome home someday.

I thank you for your somewhat kind words and good intents.

 

[pablope]

Well, in reply to your question, I’ll give two examples of Catholics who received the Sacraments, whom I believe were not Christians at all.

Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus says the Scripture a certain place, “I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.”

I believe at least two apostles went to India and perhaps as far as China. Christian Churches sprang up throughout Asia apart from the activities happening in the Roman Empire.

St. Thomas is the only one believed to have gone to India. But you know what is amazing, the Church founded by Thomas in India, (from what I read before) was isolated for centuries from contact with the Syrian Church or Rome. Yet, through this isolation, they did not fracture like protestantism, kept the same sacraments and beliefs and theology, and what not.

 

[pablope]

I can not agree with this. To be a Christian, one must accept and live the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and keep the 3 Laws of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.

Telestia…just a though came to me while reading…and following your analogy of Capone in another post…

Do you think those who propogate myths and lies about the Catholic church, and do it in the name of Christ…should they be called Christians too? Or misguided Christians?

 

[Telestia]

Judas was an Apostle and he fell.

Look…one of the Fathers of the Catholic Church wrote wonderful things until he became a heretic…Tertullian

Knox, Zwingli, Calvin, Luther were all Catholic and are the source of your Protestant thought and they were Catholic…their heretical thinking produced Protestant thought…

Why must you judge the worst for the best. Christ is King. He has subjects. Mother Theresa, people like that are what you might want to consider…not Knox, Zwingli, Calvin and the like.

Actually, I never read the writings of Knox, Zwingli, Calvin, Luther, I was an avid reader, and the Bible was one of the books I would avidly read, along with the modern classics - Shakespeare, Dickens, Poe, Fitzgerald, Maupassant, Poe, Dostoevsky, Faulkner, Kafka, Melville, Steinbeck, Conrad, Asimov, Doyle, Wells, Tolstoy, etc, Then at 13 years of age I stopped reading fiction and turned to Science, History, Biographies, and math. With respect to the Bible, some of my friends say I lean toward Calvin in my beliefs, but I never read Calvin.

 

[PJM]

=exjwmjd;8494507]This is a good discussion. …

I’m not a Catholic because when I read the OT stories, specifically, I feel like I’m reading a story from Sumeria or something like that. I see similarities between the stories from the Mesopotamian religions.
Without the literalist text of the OT it almost falls completely apart for me.

The problem is that for me, even when I look at things from something of a figurative way, the culmination of Jesus on the cross still has a ring of truth to it. There’s something about it that I can’t seem to shake off completely.

I find that I constantly return to the Bible for advice on living… but that’s another discussion.

Candor appreciated

Are there any specific issues you’d care to discuss? Please let me know.

I’m not completely with you on the OT text. I’ll post today a few articles on the bible including how it is to be read. You might fing them interestering?

God Bless and thanks you for joining in on our discussion.
Pat

 

[Telestia]

Hold this thought in your head. I agree. You are not separated by mother Church and the truths of Christianity by what you believe but what you deny and here is a perfect example.

?

 

[CopticChristian]

Actually, I never read the writings of Knox, Zwingli, Calvin, Luther, I was an avid reader, and the Bible was one of the books I would avidly read, along with the modern classics - Shakespeare, Dickens, Poe, Fitzgerald, Maupassant, Poe, Dostoevsky, Faulkner, Kafka, Melville, Steinbeck, Conrad, Asimov, Doyle, Wells, Tolstoy, etc, Then at 13 years of age I stopped reading fiction and turned to Science, History, Biographies, and math. With respect to the Bible, some of my friends say I lean toward Calvin in my beliefs, but I never read Calvin.

The word Calvin does not exist in the Bible. You may want to reflect on all your Bible Studies, Preaching that you have heard, things “fellow christians” have said, footnotes in a bible and consider that if you have learned…

Total Depravity…I am a sinner, I am depraved
Uconditional Election…God chooses as He wills
Limited Atonement…only for some…that means that some are damned
Irresistable Grace…no free Will
Perseverance of the Saints…once saved always saved.

I can point you to the Bible verses you may have seen to teach you this. You have learned Calvinism by “oral tradition”. Otherwise by reading the bible alone, without any other outside source you could never have come to even know the name Calvin, for John Calvin’s name is not part of the Bible.

 

[PJM]

=joe370;8494913]I used to have the same kinds of doubts as a former agnostic, long ago, (specifically Noah’s ark) - that was until I realized:

To doubt is the greatest insult to God’s divinity.

If God can create the infinite universe (at least from our perspective) - out of absolutely nothing, then anything is possible for God, which includes preserving truth when similar stories (Sumerian stories) - compete with God’s truth. It’s impossible to know who borrowed from whom but remember, Sumeria is nothing more than a historical footnote while Judaism which culminated with Jesus’ church (Christianity) - has continued to preserve, since the time of Sumeria, and maintain one of the greatest miracles:

Biblical unity. Consider the following:

The bible was not written all at once; far from it. The bible was written by people who lived on different continents,employing at least 3 different languages, over a period of about 1500 years, by about 40 different authors who did not even know one another, all of which had different educations, backgrounds, and professions e.g. kings, shepherds, scientists, attorneys, a general, fishermen, priests, and a physician - and miraculously their teachings, as a whole, amazingly remain in harmony with one another. That’s pretty cool and something Sumeria cannot even compare to brother! The Bible reads as if it was written by one great mind:

The Mind of God, the creator of all that is visible, from NOTHING. Phew…

Good luck on your journey my friend…

GREAT post Joe

As an FYI to all who are looking in at our discussion. Not everything in the bible is literal; and somethings; even if true do NOT effect ones faith and personal salvation. The story of Noahs Ark is a good example. I’ve read a few history accounts [along time ago] that seem to indicate a historical basis for this claim. However not believing in the Flood and the Ark is not critial to ones faith solong as one understands that God is in charge, and there will be judgments of our actions; our personal choices.

The Ark tells us that God pays attention to what we do. Further He rewards good and punishes evil. God’s Mercy and Love are evident and that is the key to this historical account.

To doubt is the greatest insult to God’s divinity.

Is a astute and necesarry truth for all to consider.

Check out my BLOG for some guidence on the Bible.

Thanks Joe,

God Bless,
Pat

 

[CopticChristian]

?

Symbols. Question. Answer.

Protestants are not separated from the Catholic Church so much by what they believe but rather by what they deny. You will find that The One Holy Catholic Church is consistent in belief and that Catholic Christians are similar to your beliefs. We for the most part agree with almost all of what you believe and you separate yourself by what you deny about what we are taught and what we believe.

This can make sense to you if you consider that Protestant thought is Catholicism taught by Catholics like Knox, Zwingli, Luther, Calvin, and it was what they denied that caused them to become heretics and form Protestant thought…this Protestant thought has been transmitted and pervades time since commencement and you have inherited what was taught and believed as well as what was denied.

Welcome to the Catholic Answers.

 

[vsedriver]

Well, in reply to your question, I’ll give two examples of Catholics who received the Sacraments, whom I believe were not Christians at all.

Al Capone was a Catholic all during his lifetime, received baptism, communion, confirmation, wedding vows, and perhaps even last rites by a Priest. I ask you, was Al Capone truly a Christian? Maybe on his death bed, but I know nothing about that.

Fortunately St. Paul tells us we are not to judge the state of another’s soul. Also, I didn’t know that if you were a sinner you couldn’t be a Christian. Or are you saying that you can only be a Christian if you don’t sin?

I believe Al Capone was a Christian, probably a very sinful Christian. I have no idea where his immortal soul maybe. That’s is only God’s business.

 

[Telestia]

I have always found it strange that people will point to churches in different parts of the world in the first century as some kind of proof that there was not just one Church. This is exactly why the Church became known as the Catholic Church; it was universal. The Apostles were charged with preaching the Gospel to the whole world and they did just that. The Catholic Church continues this mission today. The Christian Church for the first 1500 years was unified in its basic beliefs. The eastern schism in 1054 was a matter of disputes concerning leadership, not dogma or doctrine. Those who differed in dogma or doctrine were named heretics.

Christ founded one Church. There is no other “Christian Church” than the Catholic Church. Notice, I have not said “Roman” Catholic. We include the eastern rites as well under the Catholic umbrella. All others would properly be called “ecclesial communities” and each of them embrace one or more heresies which separate them from one, true Church.

I actually even have a problem with the term “Catholic Christian” as if it could be interepreted any other way, or as if it is just another denomination. The Catholic Church is not a Christian denomination. All non-Catholic, Christian organizations are, by definition, denominations of the Catholic Church since it was the original from which they divided. The entire idea that one would have to qualify the term “Catholic” with the term “Christian” is absolutely laughable. What is even more laughable is for one to suggest, under the guise of being charitable, that “some” Catholics may qualify as Christians while judging the Catholic Church by its worst members (i.e. Al Capone, the Spanish conquistadors, etc.).

Okay. And I did not Judge the Catholic Church. Judgement requires a determination of guilt or innocence, and a Judgement of guilty requires a sentence of penalty.

Steve, I merely gave my opinion. Take it or leave it, I will love you regardless of your opinion. And I’m glad I brought some laughter into your life

 

[Telestia]

Telestia…just a though came to me while reading…and following your analogy of Capone in another post…

Do you think those who propogate myths and lies about the Catholic church, and do it in the name of Christ…should they be called Christians too? Or misguided Christians?

Let us Christians be grateful that God does not accept us into His Kingdom only because we are nearly perfect in every one of our ways, like Walt Disney s’ Mary Poppins.

The Law of Liberty: Mercy Triumphs over Judgement, Judge not that you may not be Judged. By what measure you measure, so shall you be measured.

 

[CopticChristian]

Okay. And I did not Judge the Catholic Church. Judgement requires a determination of guilt or innocence, and a Judgement of guilty requires a sentence of penalty.

Steve, I merely gave my opinion. Take it or leave it, I will love you regardless of your opinion. And I’m glad I brought some laughter into your life

Try this on for size…

How can any Protestant claim to have the truth…when people like Ted Hagaard walked the fence on homosexuality while a pastor, Tim Baker embezzeled, Jimmy Swagaart consorted with a Prostitute…21 Nazi criminals reported they were Protestant…and more.

Do you see this as a judgement of Protestant thought?

I would say it is a shame for the faithful Protestant that there are sinners like these that give Protestants a bad name, those that seek God…

There are those in the covenant not of the covenant and those outside the covenant that are of the covenant… we are all just humans. Those in the Church have the fullness of Faith and admire those that are not in the Church seeking truth…

 

[Telestia]

The word Calvin does not exist in the Bible. You may want to reflect on all your Bible Studies, Preaching that you have heard, things “fellow christians” have said, footnotes in a bible and consider that if you have learned…

Total Depravity…I am a sinner, I am depraved
Uconditional Election…God chooses as He wills
Limited Atonement…only for some…that means that some are damned
Irresistable Grace…no free Will
Perseverance of the Saints…once saved always saved.

I can point you to the Bible verses you may have seen to teach you this. You have learned Calvinism by “oral tradition”. Otherwise by reading the bible alone, without any other outside source you could never have come to even know the name Calvin, for John Calvin’s name is not part of the Bible.

I believe you are confused.

I have a real relationship with Jesus. I love Him, and He loves me. And His perfect love cast out all fears. I fear not because He who is in me is greater than he who is in the world. If HE is for me, who can harm me, or separate us.

When He takes me in His arms
He speaks to me so low
I see my life en rose

He tells me words of love,
Every Day these words,
And this does something to me.

He has entered my heart,
With a happiness,
Of which I know the cause,

It’s Him for me, and me for Him, in my life,
He tells me this, everyday, of my life,

And these things become apparent,
Then I sense in me, my beating heart.

I thought that love was just a word
They sang about in songs I heard
It took your death to reveal
That I was wrong and love is real

TTFN

Telestia

 

[pablope]

Let us Christians be grateful that God does not accept us into His Kingdom only because we are nearly perfect in every one of our ways, like Walt Disney s’ Mary Poppins.

The Law of Liberty: Mercy Triumphs over Judgement, Judge not that you may not be Judged. By what measure you measure, so shall you be measured.

Good…well, this is from one of your previous posts…

Well, in reply to your question, I’ll give two examples of Catholics who received the Sacraments, whom I believe were not Christians at all.

 

[Telestia]

Good…well, this is from one of your previous posts…

Okay, this one last post.

Again, Judgement requires a verdict of guilty or innocence, and in the case of Guilty, a punishment must be executed on the one convicted of guilty. This is what ‘Judgement’ is.

I merely gave my opinion, a point of view. Which is open to discussion and other point of views, as you just gave and I am replying to your view.

 

[joe370]

Hey Telestia…

Well, in reply to your question, I’ll give two examples of Catholics who received the Sacraments, whom I believe were not Christians at all.

Al Capone was a Catholic all during his lifetime, received baptism, communion, confirmation, wedding vows, and perhaps even last rites by a Priest. I ask you, was Al Capone truly a Christian? Maybe on his death bed, but I know nothing about that.

 

[joe370]

Hey Pat…

PJM;8496948]GREAT post Joe

Is a astute and necesarry truth for all to consider.

Actually that is a quote from Padre Pio so I can’t take credit for it. He and Saint Faustina and Saint Avila of course, have become my favorites…

Check out my BLOG for some guidence on the Bible.

Thanks Joe,

I did; it’s awesome brother…