joe, I would love to hear your story. If you donât want to go public, please PM me as well.I was once (agnostic in my case) - where you are right now and followed a similar path. I will absolutely pray that God helps you in your quest my friend!!!
PM me if you are ever interested in knowing what helped me eventually believe that God truly exists?
It was the only logical choice for myself. To return to the Church.Iâm not Catholic because I donât believe in God.
BUT, if I could be convinced that God existed, Iâm pretty sure Iâd become a Christian And if I became a Christian,** Iâd be a Catholic, because it seems to me the only faith that actually makes logical sense**.
Whatâs Trentâs anathemas?"Why Iâm not Catholic" Well, just for starters (since I could write you a mile long scroll worth of reasons): on the one hand, the Catholic Church says to Protestants, âAw, câmon back into the fold, Stray Brethren.â (Weâll ignore for the moment the condescension implicit in the label.) On the other hand, Trentâs anathemas still stand, and Trent is infallible dogma, right? It canât be rescinded, right? So, then, Iâm asking myself, what gives with this institution: have they forgotten their old documents (if so, how do I know they wonât resurrect them, once I join)? Or are they less than ingenuous, orâŚmaybe theyâre counting on us dumb stray sheep not to notice the discrepancy/contradiction (not to mention the condescension)?
This is from the decree on Justification.
The Council of Trent can be found on many websites. The above is one. You can find the rest hereâŚ
It is a term that means âlet them be excomunocatedâ KICKED OUT of the CC.
I do not agree that the sciences and mathematics speak infallibly. To me, the word âinfallibleâ means âincapable of error.â That is, if infallibility exists, then under at least some circumstances a person becomes incapable of making any mistake at all. I see no reason to think that anyone has ever had that property.
The laws of nature are observed universal regularities, not teachings. They donât become teachings until people attempt to infer various things from them, and human inference is fallible. This includes inference from the descriptive laws of nature to prescriptive moral principles. And again, the expression âinfallible teachingâ is a category mistake. Teachings are not agents; they canât fail at things. They can be right or wrong, correct or incorrect.
It means that the truth that they have been exposed to is inspired by God and that therefore it obligates all; everyone, W/O exception, and must be accepeted. Anyone who makes the freewill decision NOT too; will be judged by God as denial of God and denial of Gods Own truth.
So⌠Trent was a Council, right? And the anathemas were like excommunication, when a Catholic gets officially kicked out so theyâre not a part of the Church anymore?It means that the truth that they have been exposed to is inspired by God and that therefore it obligates all; everyone, W/O exception, and must be accepeted. Anyone who makes the freewill decision NOT too; will be judged by God as denial of God and denial of Gods Own truth.
There can logically be ONLY One single truth on every issue: This defined teaching IS THAT TRUTH.
They therefore commit themselves to eternal HELL IF they do not repent and convert [accept and live these truths as explained and defined].
Hope this clarifies it for you?
God Bless,
Pat
Pat, there was ZERO fellowship at the church I used to go to. I am not criticizing the mass itself. BUTâŚI need to feel a little valued when I go to a church. Like, maybe , it actually matters that I am there.***SURE THERE WAS AND IS: YOU JUST MISSED IT
Unlike Protestant servoces which cater to floowship and unity at the expese of WORSHIPING God; Mass is 1. From God [the Father] Of God [The Son] and By God [The Holy Spirit].
Eucharist; a Greek working meaning âthanksgivingâ, has also a triune nature. At one and the same time it is a Sacrifice Sacrament [Thank you Jesus!], a Communion Sacrament where we participate in the most astounding and amazing unity with God by actually consumming His Glorified Body; blood, Soul and Divinity [the comeplete Jesus]; THANK YOU JESUS! and also a Worship Sacrament. Thank you Jesus.
Catholic Mass is [or ought to be] ALL about God! Fellowship is outside of the Mass and takes MANY forms that one can with little effort particiapte it. To give up the Real Presence and the Sacrament of Known forgivenness of sins to enjoy yourself is no excuse; much less a valid reason. In doing so one DOES put there eternal salvation at risk!
My friend it is not to late to REPENT and Revert!***
John.10: 16 âAnd I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherdâ
Eph. 4: 1-7 âI therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body [WHICH MEANS ONE CHURCH] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, [Meaning only One set of beliefs] one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christâs gift.[Always JUST and ONLY One God; One set of Faith beliefs [no option here], and One Church the ONLY one founded, guided and garded by jesus Himself [John15:18-19].
Eph. 2:19-20 âSo then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.â
May God grant you wisdom, humility and TRUE understanding,
Pat
When someone opposes the Church like Zwingli, Calvin, Knox, LutherâŚsince they were all Catholic by their free will and since 3 of them were priestsâŚthey led people into other teachings that opposed the ChurchâŚ
They actually excommunicate themselves. If they correct their error then there is no excommunicationâŚ
Yes Trent which was called to specifically address the many issues and topics that Luther, Calvin, Smith and others were dispuiting and holding views that were [ARE] very un-Catholic needed to be stated in the clearest possible language. That is what Trent did; and why even today it may well be the most important and signifiant of all the past Councils. The BROAD range of topics covered in amazing.
They may nolonger particiapte in the sacraments unless as I stated they REPENT and Convert.Can a Protestant, regardless of denomination, get kicked out of the church to which they belong if they reject certain teachings?
**My principal problem is its claim to be infallible in all of its basic teachings. I was just reading the bio of Pope Benedict XVI that he himself has written**. Fascinating little diary-type book. I was interested in how, for example, various faculty members at his seminary years ago took issue with the doctrine of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary. They argued, among other things, that it hadn't appeared within the Church until the 5th century, that there is no evidence for it in scripture and that it was not embraced by the early Christians However, once the dogma was proclaimed in 1950 by Pius XII those professors changed their tune overnight. The Church, they wre quick to admit, knew more than they did! They rushed to embrace 'the party line'.
**Now, that represents rather well the main reason I have had to keep a distance from Catholicism.** Yes, I know the arguments. The Holy Spirit guides the Pope so that when he speaks ex cathedra he cannot err. I know, too, that to dissent is usually dismissed as egotism. But I simply can't give up my mind and even my conscience to go along just to go along. If the Church would only allow folks like me to be part of the Church without surrendering the freedom to think differently....well, I guess i"ve made my point. **Off on a tangent. **I was interested - was it on this thread? - that some poster reported that 88,000 Protestants had become Catholic in the USA in the past year. No surprise, especially if you count the many mixed marriages. But how many Catholics drifted from the Church into nothingness or even into some variety of Protestantism? Protestants don't keep such figures and it strikes me as a bit weird that Catholicism does. Sound slike Protestantism is the enemy??? I do know that Protestant churches around here have attracted many former Catholics - both mainline and evangelical churches.They never seem to focus on that.
** Let us make religion a bridge rather than a barrier**. God bless Catholics, Protestants and His children of every creed, color, culture and country. I'm sure the Lord isn't all that interested in our dogmas and liturgies. He checks out our hearts and how much love is in them for him and for one another. The rest is window-dressing. I keep repeating myself because I'm hoping that it will influence at least a few readers to give this emphasis on love over doctrine and liturgy serious consideration.So you believe that the holy spirit guided the apostles to teach and write infallibly, (in other words, guided them into all truth) - but do not believe that the holy spirit continued to guide the church, to which they belonged, into all truth upon their demise?
**When it comes to the New Testament**, I don't agree with Paul - for example - that women should keep silent in the churches - and I note that women often read lessons during Mass. I even have me doubts that Jesus cast demons into pigs which then rushed over a cliff. It's easy to misinterpret unusual events. It happens all the time.
**No, I certainly was not joking when I think that God doesn't consider our doctrines and liturgies that important.** When asked outright how to enter eternal life, he gave the parable of the Good Samaritan in response. Nothing about doctrine or liturgy in that. When he spoke quite specifically about the final judgement in Matt. 25:31ff, he again ignored doctrine and liturgy. Check it out., I donât agree with Paul - for example - that women should keep silent in the churches - and I note that women often read lessons during Mass. I even have me doubts that Jesus cast demons into pigs which then rushed over a cliff. Itâs easy to misinterpret unusual events. It happens all the time.
Specific tenets or doctrines, authoritatively laid down by the church are unimportant to you? OKâŚ
Well, thatâs kind of harsh considering the fact that many churches incorporate ritualsâŚ
Makes we wonder why Jesus said:
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.â
So dear friend; God has no role in your life? What happens just kinda happens?
