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Nicea325
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No offense,but what makes you believe the Latin Liturgy is nothing of the above you mentioned?
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AveChriste11
Guest
There are no parishes around my area which celebrate the Tridentine Latin liturgy. There may be one only, within the Roman Catholic Diocese of Memphis.
I never experienced God in the current Mass, all I experienced was a Protestant sing along service. Some churches might use traditional hymns, others would use Contemporary Christian songs that you might hear on the radio station KLOVE. There’s nothing wrong with such music, but it didn’t “click” for me…
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dingodile
Guest
I have many of the same doubts that you express, but I’d like to offer another perspective.
Let’s grant, for the sake of the argument, that God created the natural order. In calling it a “natural” order, we imply that things happen in a lawlike way, for the most part. There is a uniformity in nature, in virtue of which we can reason inductively.
Now, if you’ll also grant another premise, for the sake of the argument, suppose that it’s important to God to populate this universe with beings who have free will. In a universe with natural laws, beings with free will can exercise that will in various ways. The laws of nature are such that we are easily harmed, but we can choose to try to save each other from harm. We can also use the laws of nature to inflict harm upon each other. In short, a universe of natural laws is a kind of proving-ground in which we can cultivate certain virtues or certain vices. It’s up to us which we do.
In such a world, there will be suffering. Some of it will be caused by us, intentionally or unintentionally. Much will be caused by nature itself, in ways that we can’t prevent, try as we might.
Suppose that God created that kind of universe because it is conducive to a higher good that he has in mind.
Given those suppositions, what role might miraculous healings have?
On the scale and consistency that you have demanded, they wouldn’t actually be miraculous at all. They would just be ancillary laws of nature, operating in a “mass, consistent, and universal” manner, like other laws of nature. In short, what you’re asking for as evidence is a different kind of universe altogether, run according to different laws. That may or may not be a desirable kind of universe, but it does seem to set the evidential bar pretty high.
This is not to say that miraculous healings can’t happen in the actual universe, the one we live in. Here such events, though never reliable phenomena, could still serve as signs that the natural order is not all there is. And indeed, that appears to be just the way things are arranged. There are healings that are miraculous by even the most rigorous standards, but these sorts of healings are never reliable and lawlike. They cannot be produced by any technique, not even a technique of prayer. Maybe it’s this way for a reason.
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atheistgirl
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Hi - thanks for the interesting perspective. Perhaps it is as it is for a reason. But that reason sure is beyond me
Sarah x
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PJM
Guest
Yep and here is why:
He has PROVEN His love in way’s that we can SEE, understand and appreciate:
But He reserveres His JUST and FAIR Fury until the Judgment
God Bless you my friend,
Pat
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dingodile
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reasons have you considered and ruled out?Hi - thanks for the interesting perspective. Perhaps it is as it is for a reason. But that reason sure is beyond me
Sarah x
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fbl9
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Hi - thanks for the interesting perspective. Perhaps it is as it is for a reason. But that reason sure is beyond me
Sarah x
Well said dingodile.Christianity has never been united. From the very beginning there were people who believed differently and were called heretics and were banished. So I dont think its correct to say there has ever been total chrsitian unity. Since all sincerely and faithfully believe they are being led by the holy spirit, one has to ask how and why this is not more self evident.
I said at the very outset I know some wonderful christians who try their very best to life by their faith, day by day, and they are truely wonderful people to know and to do business with.
Sarah X
To Atheist girl: to which christianity would reply" His ways are above our ways"
Think for a sec., if one ceases to beleive in a tenant of the faith, are they still christians?
When we say they are still christians it is meant in the sense of their judgement.
Finally (meaning the last text i am adressing) i do apologize, upon reading, my last text to you sounds harsh. i am one of the least eloquient(sic) people you will meet.
Better said then of those who claim christian yet not live it will be held by
God accountable for their actions, not to anybody else.Seek the good in people and build on that instead of trying to build on their bad.
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sallybutler
Guest
Unfortunately, the Church is made up of people. And I’m sure you know, people are not perfect, so they individually are not always a good example of anything.I am not being facaetious with this answer - Im not going to say things like a personal apperation because we understand a lot about hallucinations so Im not even sure that would convince me BUT things that would make me sit up and take notice would be:
Answering Prayers - as per the numerous and unconditional claims for this in the Bible - but not on an individual basis, on a mass, consistent, universal basis.
Healing - Jesus tells the disciples, and presumably his priests, their descendants, to heal the sick, cure the lame, raise the dead. For priests to evidence not just a spiritual healing ministry, but a physical one, where we can study those healed - that would include amputee limb regeneration, obliteration of all cancers, etc.
Unity - all christian sects (Im leaving out the myriad of other different religions for now) claim to have the Holy Spirit as their guide. Yet they all disagree with one another on some level - some superficial some so profound they condemn other christian sects and claim they are not even christian - this to me is evidence there is no Holy Spirit guiding but rather mans mind and personal interpretation - so let’s see total and absolute unity of christian belief, one single church, one single set of beliefs, all arrived at independently by different people of different cultures and different languages and all completely agreeing with each other on every single level.
Visionaries - I have never been able to understand why visionaries almost always seem to be devout, humble, simple, often uneducated and very young, people - who then give messages to Bishops or the Pope and in the case of Fatima, keep things secret for decades.
Appear at the next Atheist Conference, or the United Nations - and not invisibly, visibly, so there is no ambiguity or personal interpretation involved - with a clear unambiguous message.
Christian behavior - I know and have dealings with some wonderful christian people. They do, it seems to me, try to live out their faith day by day. But the vast majority of people I know and deal with, while saying theyre christian, just go about their daily business, and it seems, that although they believe they have access to some wonderful news or secret about salvation and believe, genuinely, they are going to, or have a good chance of getting to, heaven, where they will live for all eternity, it doesnt seem to make the slightest bit of difference to them on just about any level.
They are moody, rude, miserable, greedy, selfish, covetous, thieving, lying, adulterating, cheating, deceiving, blaspheming and occasionally murderous.
Finding a rabbit in the precambrian fossil record
That would do for starters. It would certainly give me something to think about and wonder why that should be so.
Given that, would you require that Shakespeare write a sonnet to Sarah (being that is my legal name, I would love it) in order to prove that Shakespeare existed. Did you personally watch Dickens write Great Expectation? If not, how do you know he wrote it? What would it take for you to believe that Christopher Columbus existed? Going further back in time, King Tut (his real name is beyond my spelling capabilities)? Is a moon rock really from the moon (I love conspiracy theories). Do you know before you get on a plane that the pilot is a pilot (or do you trust the airlines to hire experienced pilots) While I understand your desire to have every question answered fully, that is not possible.
Faith is when you believe in something you didn’t actually witness, yet you believe is true.
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joe370
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Hey Sarah…
And anyone who saw Bruce Almighty saw how disastrous that could be. LOL…That was such a hilarious movie, :thumbsup:but when Bruce just gave everyone what they wanted (answered their prayers) - chaos ensued. I could see the same thing happening in real life if God decided to answer prayers on a mass, consistent, universal basis.
Again, what about the undeniable miraculous nature of Fatima caught on film and affirmed by many many atheists? Isn’t that what all atheists demand, in order to believe? But they just ignore them as mere silliness. I believe, for most atheists, it would take an act of God, directly in their life, before he/she would believe.
Ironically, the one thing I thought would be the only verifiable and undeniable proof for you, you rejected, which is:
Direct contact with our maker. :heaven:
I think if God decided to reveal Himself to you, God could convince you that it wasn’t a hallucination, but I digress.
And anyone who saw Bruce Almighty saw how disastrous that could be. LOL…That was such a hilarious movie, :thumbsup:but when Bruce just gave everyone what they wanted (answered their prayers) - chaos ensued. I could see the same thing happening in real life if God decided to answer prayers on a mass, consistent, universal basis.Sadly we live in a fallen state and therefore we live by faith not sight. Of course, in the church there have been verifiable examples of such healing (such as Fatima and Lourdes) - and most non-believers merely scoff at them. It appears that you have already checked out Fatima. Hard to deny such a prodigious miracle, witnessed, at the same time, by so many many people; wouldn’t you agree?
John 17 agrees with you, and if Jesus did in fact just establish the one CC (and the rest were founded by mere me; never to impugn those wonderful churches of course) - then Jesus’ CC would indeed pass your litmus test.
That in and of itself, is an obstacle?
Again, what about the undeniable miraculous nature of Fatima caught on film and affirmed by many many atheists? Isn’t that what all atheists demand, in order to believe? But they just ignore them as mere silliness. I believe, for most atheists, it would take an act of God, directly in their life, before he/she would believe.I suppose it is reasonable to use that excuse; most do; I did for a long time, as a former agnostic. Of course the hypocrisy of certain Christians shouldn’t be an obstacle for us. Jesus even predicted that such things must occur in His church.
The precambrian fossil record is quite poor, and what fossils are present are of little use and seriously metamorphosed, obscuring their origins or simply destroyed by erosion. But of course I see your point.
Ironically, the one thing I thought would be the only verifiable and undeniable proof for you, you rejected, which is:
Direct contact with our maker. :heaven:
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atheistgirl
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I do understand that.
Well, outside of the contempory historical records - it doesnt actually matter. Shakepseare’s works are there for all to enjoy and learn from. Whether an actual person called Shakespeare wrote them, or a committee, really has no bearing on the reader.
But it very much DOES matter that Jesus and God exists given billions of people devote their lifes to the idea, and modify their behavior accordingly. The existence of the creator and His laws etc have directly impacted the development of civilization as we know it, and today directly impacts on sociology, trading laws, law, education etc. So it is critical we can know Jesus and God do actually exist.
I think we’re using the terms differently - I dont have ‘‘faith’’ in the pilot, I have trust in the system - and this trust has been tested thousands of times, and shown to be well placed. We have systems to ensure pilots are properly trained and skilled up. Things go wrong of course and we analyze and learn the lessons and make improvements. All this builds trust in the system. If it was truely random as to whether we got there or not, no one would fly. But we have a system of training, assessment, experience, analyzis, evaluation, investigation, reappraisal and correction all build into most systems where people could be at risk, and this builds trust, not faith.
Hmmm … if my daughter tells me she saw a blue car with three wheels and yellow spots on the way home from school, I would believe her. That’s because I know there are cars, I know some have three wheels, and I know the colors she described exist. In addition, she knows lying is wrong, and does not tell lies. We have a history together, where she has never lied to me. I didnt actually witness the car, but I believe her.
If my daughter came home and told me she saw a frog with two heads and two bodies - I would most likely believe she is telling me exactly what she saw, from her perspective - but I might understand it in terms of either a deformity, which we know happen, or, most likely, she’s come across a male on a females back doing their mating ritual. Again, I didnt witness it, but the claims she is making are understandable and verifable and have been observed before.
Now, if she told me she saw a man call another man out of the grave, and the man got up and was alive, and then the heavens opened, and a golden chariot came sweeping down, they both jumped on, and swoooshed right up through the clouds into heaven
Given my daughter doesnt lie - I am going to believe she was imagining things, she got her dreamtime/realtime overlapped or she is going to have to produce some incredible quality evidence to convince me what she is describing is exactly what happened because what she is describing defies all known laws of biology, chemistry, physics, gravity etc.
I’m not going to believe it actually happened as described, just because it is my daughter telling me, even though I know my daughter does not tell lies. Unless she can produce unequivocal and undeniable evidence, the obvious (and correct) starting point, is to assume she is mistaken somewhere along the line.
Sarah x
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atheistgirl
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joe370
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lol…lol…
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joe370
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Interesting and thought provoking perspective! 
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atheistgirl
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I most certainly do not scoff - but these miracles are not without dispute. Mass hysteria and confirmation bias are well understood. No observatory recorded any unusual solar activity. Why not I have to ask? If it was real, it would have been observed and noted scientifically by trained astronomers and cosmologists. Not the mention the effects such an actual event would have on the earth itself as a wholeThat in and of itself, is an obstacle?
So, while I do not dismiss it out of hand, and fully respect the fact the church declared these verifiable miracles, they are disputed by others, and there are still some questions for me that are not satisfactorily answered.
Sarah x
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joe370
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I most certainly do not scoff -
I was afraid you were gonna take it that way. I didn’t mean you.
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atheistgirl
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I was afraid you were gonna take it that way. I didn’t mean you.
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Flyingg
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I’m not a Catholic because:
- I don’t believe in Gods, God, angels, demons, judgement day, life after death, heaven, hell, spirits,miracles, prophets or 'holy books" or any other supernatural things or beings.
- I don’t agree with most of what the Catholic Church teachs or does or did during history.
- I don’t see much evidence that supports Catholicism.
- if there is an INTELLIGENT designer who made this brilliant, amazing and large universe I don’t think he would send his son to save us by dying on a cross, and a god who cares about how much devout we are or about how much we go to confession or consider masturbation, pre marital sex, gay marriage, birth control as sins and I don’t think he would concentrate on humans as they are the center of everything and they need to be saved.
- I think organized religions including Catholicism limit the individuality of thoughts and free thinking.
- I think you can be a moral and loving person without following a 2000 years old book.
- I think prayers do nothing and change nothing, the same thing is going to happen wherever we pray or not, if we want to change anything and make the world a better place, we have to work on it. But I believe prayers can work only as meditation when we feel stressed or tired but many other thing can help too in making us feel better.
- The concept of free will which is being the answer for a lot of religious questions is illogical.
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joe370
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atheistgir said:
As a former agnostic I just couldn’t logically accept the idea that 70000 people were guilty of mass hysteria and bias. Many non-believers were there, as well as scientists such as Dr. Joseph Garrett, professor of natural sciences the University of Coimbra. If thousands of eye witnesses is not enough proof then the only proof that will suffice, in the end is God speaking to each and every agnostic or atheist, except you that is.
Just joking around…Of course I respect your right to embrace mass hysteria/confirmation bias theory, if in fact you do.Somewhere between 70000 to 100000 witnesses, (which included non believers as well) - seeing this event in the sky take place, on the exact day the child predicted, is pretty amazing wouldn’t you say Sarah? All of them saw the sun’s disc spin round on itself in a mad whirl as if to loosen itself from the firmament and advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush them; heck, the pics speak for themselves. For all of those folks there it was a terrifying moment. Impossible, for me anyway, to argue against the facts of this prodigious event.
For example, the exact day was predicted in newspapers by a ten-year-old girl, and this is thoroughly proven which was why tens of thousands showed up and eventually witnessed exactly what Mary foretold via the child; they witnessed an inexplicable miracle in the sky; from behind the clouds, the sun came out, danced, changed colors, spun like a pinwheel, and provided an obviously sensational demonstration that defied nature, and the sun’s behavior was clearly unique, and couldn’t have been mistaken for some chance atmospheric oddity considering the fact that the children predicted the exact day. I can’t imagine what the odds are of that mind boggling sensational demonstration just coincidentally happening on the exact same day the child said it would happen; know what I mean?
That’s proof positive to me, but if not to you, that’s cool. Taking that factor alone into consideration the only reasonable conclusion that I can draw is that Lucia Santos’ vision and prediction was a genuine miracle.
If God didn’t want it to adversely effect the world, God certainly could arrange that - right?If it was real, it would have been observed and noted scientifically by trained astronomers and cosmologists. Not the mention the effects such an actual event would have on the earth itself as a whole
The fact that thousands of people saw such an unnatural event, then the event in question, like you mentioned, should have effected the earth itself as a whole, without some sort of miracle - right? I just can’t, in good judgment, entertain the notion that 70000 people (comprised of believers and big time scoffing doubters, at least until the event occurred) - were all hallucinating. Now that’s faith…
Perhaps the miracle of the sun was meant for those particular witnesses. Who knows…
Scientifically speaking, who should have been able to observe it?
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Miriam1947
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What about Our Lady of Guadalupe? She left a picture of herself on a tilma.
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joe370
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The following movie is probably the best account of what happened in Fatima if you are at all curious:The shock might kill me
the13thday.com/
Excerpt from the site:
"In a world torn apart by persecution, war and oppression, 3 children were chosen to offer a message of hope to the world.
Based on the memoirs of the oldest Seer, and many thousands of independent eye-witness accounts, the 13th Day dramatizes the TRUE story of three young shepherds who experienced six apparitions with a “…Lady from Heaven” between May and October 1917, which culminated into the final prophesized Miracle.
Abducted from their homes, thrown into prison and interrogated under the threat of death in the government’s attempt to silence them, the children remained true to their story.
The lady, who revealed herself to be the Blessed Mary, gave a SECRET to the children told in three parts, from a harrowing vision of hell, to prophetic warnings of future events including the advent and timing of the Second World War, the spread of communism, and the assassination of the Pope.
All three have since died. Two have since been beatified.
Stylistically beautiful and technically innovative, writer-directors Ian & Dominic Higgins use state-of-the-art digital effects to create stunning images of the Visions and the final miracle that have never before been fully realized.
Witness the greatest miracle of the 20th Century, and experience the incredible, emotionally-charged and often harrowing world of three young children whose choice to remain loyal to their beliefs, even in the face of death, would inspire thousands."
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