I'm not a Catholic because

[Being_Brave]

I’m not a Catholic because the Easter Vigil hasn’t arrived yet

 

[Telestia]

With regard to:

John 20: 19-23 " On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Of course, we are not perfect, we all sin continually.

The same John also wrote:

1 Jn 1:7 - 10:
If we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. NASU

Furthermore, when you or I contritely confess our sins, anyone who refuses to forgive our sins, they create a great problem for themselves, they will be judged as they have Judged others.

In the words of Jesus:

Mt 7:1-3 **"Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. **

And Mt 5:7

7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.” NASU

And James wrote:

Jas 2:12-13
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. NASU

And Jesus taught:

Lk 6:34-38
**"Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. **

37 **" Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned. Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure — pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return." **
NASU

This is a very GREAT teaching, take it to Heart. It is one of the commandments of Jesus Christ of the New Covenant. The Law of Liberty.
**
And one more thing, when you tritely confess your own sins, and make amends as best you can, do not forget to forgive yourself**, (regardless of what others may think or what you imagine what they think, just believe Jesus, He loves you.)

 

[dontknow]

First time I’ve ever been in this forum, so please be easy on me if possible…

I am an admitted cafeteria catholic. Not necessarily proud of it, but I admit it just the same.

I have difficultly believing and adhering to many of the teachings of the CC.

Starting someplace, I’ll list that I do not believe for one second that the pope is infallible. He’s a human being and can be as wrong as the rest of us.

I don’t believe some of the other faiths I am aware of (not in great depths though) are wrong and the Catholic faith is the only one that is correct. Not to create any exclusions but two that come to mind are Jewish and Lutherans. I think they are as valid as Catholics - just get there in a different way.

I struggle with the idea on many of the interpretations & guidelines that make up the Catechism. People made these and people can be and are in fact generally wrong many times in trying to set policy.

I struggle with the idea that non abortive means of ABC are wrong.

I struggle with the idea that women can not take a more leading role in the church.

There’s more but I’ll end here…

To wrap it up, I am a catholic, albeit cafeteria style. I’ve been chastised many times over for my believes so it’s my struggle to deal with.

 

[PJM]

=Telestia;8608642]I’m not a catholic because I believe Catholics would not want me to be a Catholic, primarily because I would be a stickler as to what the Scriptures actually and plainly states.

1. I believe I am saved because I believed the Messiah whom the Father sent, Jesus. Jesus came to become the perfect Lamb of God Whom takes away the sins of the world, His redeeming blood.

Great post, BUT impossible in restricted space to address each issue which actually ought to be done.

***So my friend, I can point to several palces IN THE BIBLE that advice that YOU OUGHT NOT try to interpet the bible yourself. ***

Eph.3: 9 to 12 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [SINGULAR: meaning THE CATHOLIC Church] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confidence of access through our faith in him

**2nd. Peter 1: 16-21 ** “we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”

**Matt.13:9-12 **“He who has ears, let him hear." Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.” For to him who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. “

2nd. Tim. 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work"

And then there are the MULTITTUDE of Teachings that do NOT agree with you Here are but a very FEW of them.

Luke.14: 7 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” And see James 2:!

Matt.19: 17 “… If you would enter life, keep the commandments." Jn. 20:20 **As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." **And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. ***If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” ***

Acts.20: 28 “Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God [SINGULAR] which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.”

1Tim. 3: 15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the [SINGULAR] household of God, which is the church [SINGULAR] of the living God, the pillar and **bulwark of the truth **SINGULAR]

**Luke 10:16 **“He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

**ACTS 8: 29-32 **“And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.” So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, **“Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “How can I, unless some one guides me?” **

Eph. 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit".

**John 10: 16 **And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd. WHO BY THE WAY JESUS GAVE THE KEYS TO THE GATE OF HEAVEN; SORRY BUT I CAN’T FIND WHERE HE ALSO GAVE THEM TO YOU

Eph. 3: 9-10 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; *** that through the church [singular] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord***,

2nd. Peter 3: 14-17 “Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability

So dear friend you’ll NOT find INFORMED and RIGHT practicing Catholic or Christians agreeing with you. While intended you are nevertheless WRONG.

God Bless you,
Pat

 

[Telestia]

And one more thing, when you tritely confess your own sins, and make amends as best you can, do not forget to forgive yourself

, (regardless of what others may think or what you imagine what they think, just believe Jesus, He loves you.)

This is a bit embarrassing.

In my last post above at 12:58 PM, I wrote the word tritely. It should have been contritely.

 

[Telestia]

Pat, I read your post. I do not agree with your claim that I am not a Christian.

Some of your Catholic Church Fathers disagree with the position you have taken (e.g. Justin Martyr, Augustine, and Thomas Aquinas) , though many Popes affirmed your position. However, In the 20th century, the RCC has supported to some extent that non - Catholic Christians being true Christians, including the 2nd Vatican Council.

I am a Christian in accordance with the Holy Scriptures, for I have embraced the gospel of Jesus Christ. Your words do not deter me from remaining in my current daily relationship with Jesus. I am a Christian. A true child of God.

 

[downtownbrown]

I am not a Roman Catholic because I am Lutheran which is both Evangelical and Catholic as stated by the Lutheran Confessions. If I were ever to convert, I would be the best Roman Catholic that I could be, not Roman Catholic in name only as some are such as some politicians are.

 

[downtownbrown]

The church teaches that any person that is baptized in a triune preaching church,and believes in the Father,the Son ,and the Holy spirit,is my brother,however if you want to be part of the church that the early fathers instituted ,at Jesus behest,then you must consider the RCC. There are so many falsehoods about the Church out there,that I know not where to begin. Well, I must Defend our holy Father ,the Popes infallability first.
If the pope declares that folgers coffee is the best ,is that infallable?Certainly not! Meerly his opinion. If there ever is a problem about some erroneous teaching ,not promulgated by the church(heresies ) the Church in its Magistyrial wisdom deals with it by calling a conference with the the Pope ,and dozens,and dozens of bishops.After much prayer ,and invoking the holy spirits guidence,and many hours,days,weeks,monthes,and sometimes years,of discourse,a single statement of pure truth is accepted. Then ,and only then is that truth announced from the chair of Peter.That statement is what’s infallable about the Holy Father. By his own admission he is a sinner ,just as we all are,and needs reconcilliation ,just as we all do.Thank God for confession!! Confession,why is it so difficult to see the need for confession,the way every devout catholic believes? When peter was given the keys to the kingdom ,by Jesus.He said to him ,who so evers sin you forgive on earth will be forgiven in Heaven,and who so evers sin you do not forgive on earth,will not be forgiven in Heaven. You see, He gave peter ,and the Apostles the power to forgive sins,but he did not give them the power to read minds,so we must verbalize our sins to them ,and by extension to our priests,in order for them to absolve us. We need to be reconciled often because we are miserable sinners too! The secret is that when we confess we must be sincere in our desire to stop sinning.The flesh is weak,so thank God for Confession! God Bless us all!

 

[Miriam1947]

First time I’ve ever been in this forum, so please be easy on me if possible…

I am an admitted cafeteria catholic. Not necessarily proud of it, but I admit it just the same.

I have difficultly believing and adhering to many of the teachings of the CC.

Starting someplace, I’ll list that I do not believe for one second that the pope is infallible. He’s a human being and can be as wrong as the rest of us.

Absolutely the pope can be wrong on many things (for instance if he made a declaration about climate change) that don’t pertain to the moral teaching of the Church. The popes have not declared dogmas as infallible all that often in our history.

I don’t believe some of the other faiths I am aware of (not in great depths though) are wrong and the Catholic faith is the only one that is correct. Not to create any exclusions but two that come to mind are Jewish and Lutherans. I think they are as valid as Catholics - just get there in a different way.

The Church teaches that they are Christian without the fullness of the faith. It does not mean that non-Catholics go to hell. We Catholics have Jewish roots. God deals with us all from where we are.

I struggle with the idea on many of the interpretations & guidelines that make up the Catechism. People made these and people can be and are in fact generally wrong many times in trying to set policy.

The Catechism answers questions about the faith and about the moral way of living which we should all be concerned with. (Did I just end a sentence with a preposition?)

I struggle with the idea that non abortive means of ABC are wrong.

The Church teaches that children are a blessing. In our society today, children are considered a burden. God asks us to be fruitful and multiply. We can do that with NPF, why do we have to use ABC for a non-disease?. And many birth control pills are in fact abortifacient.

I struggle with the idea that women can not take a more leading role in the church.

Women have always had a major role in the Church, we have women who are Doctors of the Church. They cannot be a priest because they cannot fill the role of In Persona Christi. The greatest saint in the Church is a woman.

There’s more but I’ll end here…

To wrap it up, I am a catholic, albeit cafeteria style. I’ve been chastised many times over for my believes so it’s my struggle to deal with.

Sometimes we can think the Church is wrong because after all the modern world thinks we are wrong. Maybe the modern world is wrong. The TRUTH never changes.

 

[QuickCat]

Because I find the claims of the Bible to be ludicrous, yet alone the beliefs of a specific form of Christianity.

Do you find it “ludicrous” that the Son of God would go to the cross and pay the full penalty for all your sins?
Do you find it “ludicrous” that the Bible teaches that all who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, that He died for their sins, was buried and rose again the 3rd day [according to the Scriptures] are eternally secure in Him?
Do you find it “ludicrous” that God the Holy Spirit seals those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ?
QC

 

[PJM]

=Contarini;8609889]PJM,

JPII relaxed the requirements for canonization, and Padre Pio seems to have been one of the “beneficiaries” of this policy. Supposedly there’s a document from one of his “spiritual daughters” testifying that he asked for undiluted carbolic acid in secret, which does look a bit suspicious (there have been other claims that his wounds smelled of carbolic acid). Previous Popes seem to have regarded him with more suspicion.

If Wikipedia is correct, he is only one of two priests who ministered after Vatican II and have been canonized (this wikipedia passage looks like the insertion of a Traditionalist, but that doesn’t make it false). If there’s really such a shortage of canonizable priests in relatively modern times, your argument about “one more or less” seems a bit less convincing. And I’m not claiming that JPII or anyone else deliberately “made up” Padre Pio’s sainthood (there does seem to be some possibility that Padre Pio “made up” his stigmata). I worry that since JPII had a tendency (much commented on and criticized) to canonize people very readily, and since he had himself confessed to Padre Pio and been deeply impressed by him, and since he had a pretty clear tendency to be somewhat naive and overly charitable in his judgments of people he liked (witness Fr. Maciel), it is possible that he pushed for Padre Pio’s canonization (in all sincerity and good faith) in a way that short-circuited the wise precautions that are traditionally part of the process.

However, the “help” I was asking from you had more to do with your own reasons for being personally impressed with Padre Pio’s sanctity. What bothered me, as I said, about the link you posted is that the very reverential account of Padre Pio given there didn’t predispose me favorably to him at all. He came across as sly and manipulative–and this was in the account of a naive priest who was deeply devoted to him and clearly didn’t intend to give any such impression.

To put it simply: in what way does Padre Pio bring you closer to Jesus? What have you learned from him? I’m asking for what an evangelical would call a “testimony” more than for an argument (though I’m happy to hear arguments as well).

Edwin

Why my friend are good people so quick to believe such foolishness? The reason is because somewhere in there heart they desire it to be true.

Did you know that before John PAul became Pope, he visited Padre Pio, who shared with him that he was to prepare himself for the Papacy?

The answer to your final question is by there life of sacrifice and dedication to God, Saints are Siants because their lives warrant emmulation.

Any and ALL good and holy prople are by far the most “read” bibles in the world. Love cannot be hidden, nor should it be.
God Bless you,!
Pat

 

[PACKAROO]

i don’t know if his experience is the same as mine, but i’ve heard several catholics from my school tell me that they consider themselves catholic before they do christian. What they meant is that they are more concerned with following the church than following christ, and though i know the point of the church is to carry forth christ’s teachings, the problem was that they weren’t paying any thought to that.

they were doing what the church told them for the sake of the church with no mindfulness to christ. It was empty ritual for them, but they were alright with that

on the other side, my faith is what it is because i have a community of believers around me that hold me accountable and rebuke me for any missteps i take. They encourage me to read the bible (and they’ve succeeded in convincing me to make it daily), we worship together and raise our voices (hymns, contemporary stuff, anything goes, really), pray together, and do life together. The church itself is small, fairly traditional, and very focused on active faith. There are very few lukewarm christians there. It’s a wesleyan methodist church, so the liturgy isn’t particularly liberal.

I appreciate the catholic church. Many of my close friends are catholic. I’ve learned about it for the past year through research and reading. But with my vulnerabilities and spiritual weaknesses, it’s best for me to stay in the solid crowd that i’m already in.

just ask yourself 'what if they are not ‘empty’ rituals’?

 

[fbl9]

*just ask yourself 'what if they are not ‘empty’ ***rituals’?

no, the poster is saying they are the type of person that would become lax in their faith.

 

[CopticChristian]

Do you find it “ludicrous” that the Son of God would go to the cross and pay the full penalty for all your sins?
Do you find it “ludicrous” that the Bible teaches that all who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, that He died for their sins, was buried and rose again the 3rd day [according to the Scriptures] are eternally secure in Him?
Do you find it “ludicrous” that God the Holy Spirit seals those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ?
QC

Eternal Security is a false doctrine propogated by Calvinist thought.

 

[QuickCat]

Eternal Security is a false doctrine propogated by Calvinist thought.

Our salvation is BELIEVING in the LORD Jesus Christ – Acts 16:31; John 3:36,
We are NOT saved by works. We didn’t receive salvation by works nor do we keep it by works.

“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He SAVED us.” Titus 3:5

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: It is the GIFT of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8,9

Salvation is a free GIFT. If we have to work to keep it, it would not be free. “The GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our LORD.” Romans 6:23.

Upon believing the gospel of our salvation we are SEALED by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption [of our body]. Ephesians 1:13, 4:30; 2 Cor. 1:22. Notice that this seal is by the Holy Spirit. We can’t break that seal and God won’t break it.

Upon being saved we become a child of God. “Beloved, NOW we are the SONS OF GOD…” 1 John 3:2: See Romans 8:15 also.

Romans 8:35-39 tells us that nothing can separate us from the Love of our Father.

1 John 5:13 tells us that we can KNOW that we have eternal life.

We are COMPLETE In Christ: The Greek word is ‘pleroo’ – nothing can be added to this completeness. Colossians 2:10.

Believers in any dispensation are “kept by the power of God….” 1 Peter 1:5

He will keep us from falling, and will present us faultless before the presence of God. Jude 24.

He saves us to the uttermost. Hebrews 7:25.

We are sealed until the day of redemption – Ephesians 1:13; 4:30.

The “back slider” will suffer loss of rewards, but will still be saved. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

When we are saved we become members of His Body – Ephesians 5:30; 1 Corinthians 12:18.

John 6:47 – “….he that believeth on Me HATH everlasting life.”

John 3:36 – “…He that believeth on the Son HATH everlasting life;…”

John 5:24 – “…He that heareth My Word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, HATH everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life.”

John 10:28,29 – “And I give them ETERNAL life; and they shall NEVER perish…”

Hebrews 7:25 - …He is able to save them to the UTTERMOST……He ever liveth to make INTERCESSION for them.”

Titus 1:2 – “In hope of eternal life, which God, That cannot lie, promised before the world began.”

II Timothy 4:18 – “And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto His heavenly kingdom:…”

1 Corinthians 11:32 – “For when we are judged we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.”

Philippians 1:6 – “……, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.”

Perhaps those who would have you lose your salvation, never had it to begin with. And if one could lose his salvation there is no way to get it back according to Hebrews 6:6. Perhaps those who teach that you can lose your salvation have a “religious” system that keeps one in bondage.

 

[PJM]

=PACKAROO;8622563]*just ask yourself 'what if they are not ‘empty’ ***rituals’?

The idea that ANY “catholic” is more cencerend about following “the church” rather than Christ Himself is SIMPLE FOOLISHNESS. Complete NONSENSE! WHY:shrug:

***Because it is a literal sense Christ is HIS Church! ***Far more litreraly in the practice of our Catholic Faith than any other religion in the entire world. Christ committed to ebing with us ALWAYS in Matthew 28:20 [verses 16-20] "Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them.And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; ***and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” ***

John 17:18-19 "As thou didst send me into the world, so I[JESUS] have sent them into the world. And for their sake ***I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth. ***

Then of course is the REALITY of Christ Real and TRUE Presence found ONLY in His CC and affiliates.

Matthew 26: 26-28
And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body. And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying: Drink ye all of this. For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.

MARK 14: 22-24
And whilst they were eating, Jesus took bread; and blessing, broke, and gave to them, and said: Take ye. This is my body. And having taken the chalice, giving thanks, he gave it to them. And they all drank of it. And he said to them: This is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many.

Luke 22: 19-21
And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me. In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.

Paul 1 Cor.11: 23-29
“Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me. For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall show the death of the Lord, until he come. Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.”

**John from Chapter 6: 47-57 **
“amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, abides in me, and I in him”.

This sounds a whole lot more like another insidious attempt to discreidt our catholic beliefs than anything even remotely true

God Bless,
Pat

 

[CopticChristian]

Our salvation is BELIEVING in the LORD Jesus Christ – Acts 16:31; John 3:36,
**We are NOT saved by works. We didn’t receive salvation by works nor do we keep it by works.

“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He SAVED us.” Titus 3:5

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: It is the GIFT of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8,9

Salvation is a free GIFT. If we have to work to keep it, it would not be free. “The GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our LORD.” Romans 6:23.**
Upon believing the gospel of our salvation we are SEALED by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption [of our body]. Ephesians 1:13, 4:30; 2 Cor. 1:22. Notice that this seal is by the Holy Spirit. We can’t break that seal and God won’t break it.

Upon being saved we become a child of God. “Beloved, NOW we are the SONS OF GOD…” 1 John 3:2: See Romans 8:15 also.

Romans 8:35-39 tells us that nothing can separate us from the Love of our Father.
1 John 5:13 tells us that we can KNOW that we have eternal life.

Perhaps those who would have you lose your salvation, never had it to begin with. And if one could lose his salvation there is no way to get it back according to Hebrews 6:6. Perhaps those who teach that you can lose your salvation have a “religious” system that keeps one in bondage.

Your concept of Salvation as stated is consistent with the Catholic Church. This was stated at the Council of Orange (529 AD) and Council of Trent (1600. We are saved by grace, through faith, a gift not of your own, working in love…for even the good we do is a gift of God…this is Catholic teaching and it appears you are on the right track here.

ON JUSTIFICATION
CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

[Page 45] CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man’s free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

Concerning Romans 8, you do not understand what you read causing me to doubt that you truly understand that salvation is not secure as you say. If you base your premise on this false understanding I choose not to look further. Read what you believe to be saying that you are eternally secure and then ask yourself this. What are the wages of Sin?

35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul is not saying…what shall separate us from the love of God, Apostasy, Heresy, Adultery, Murder, Larceny, Fornication, Lying, cheating, stealing, Oh no for in all these things we are more than conquerers. Paul is pointing out that we are sheep to be slaughtered and no manner of suffering will separate us from the love of God.

You have not convinced me that you truly know that you are eternally secure based on this lack of understanding.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Gosh, I haven’t taken the time to read everything on this thread, but I have read enough to understand why someone would be an atheist rather than accept all the wild, miracle stories

Far greater miracles happen in Lourdes, and around the world, all the time.

The fact that you exist is one of them.

Most of the preposterous claims of incredible miracles are from centuries ago, when people also believed in ghosts, witches, banchees, elves and all sorts of other bizarre creatures.

Unfortunately, evil spirits are very real. They provide the only explanation for how a Christian country like Germany can turn into something so grotesquely evil as the Nazi regime. There is plenty of evidence that Hitler’s cronies were involved in sorcery and Nordic paganism. They were probably possessed as a result of their trying to harness demonic powers, and once the demons had control of the country’s leaders, then came the invasions and the progroms against the Jews.

So, do you have a better explanation for why a historically Christian country suddenly reverted to paganism and became incredibly evil? Do you have any evidence for your explanation?

I discount most such claims, but I understand why they were so widely accepted. That was an era before a microscope and before a decent telescope. Humanity had no idea of the immenseness of creation. They thought the earth was it - the center of everything. Now that we know that there could be million or even a billion solar systems, each with countless stars - wow! those primitive ideas seem simplistic (bto be kind).

Many of those people spend a lot of time speculating about extraterrestrials. Many of them believe that extraterrestrials exist even though there is ZERO evidence for them. There is considerably more than zero evidence that miracles, angels and demons exist. Going with E.T. over Lourdes is not reasonable.

This bilocation business and many more suoernatural works by him are crazy. Sorry. If I had to believe them or be an atheist, I probably would have to be honest and an atheist.

That raises an interesting point. Have you ever seen an officially atheist country that has ever been a successful democracy? If atheism is so rational and atheists are so intelligent, then why is it that they can’t build a successful democracy? Why do you insist on telling us that believing in spirits (good or bad) and miracles is so “primitive” and “crazy” when the atheist regimes of the 20th century are now all regarded as being primitive and crazy, if not outright criminals against humanity?

**B] The good news is that one can be a Christian (I certainly claim to be), believe in God, accept Christ as our window into spirituality, seek to follow Jesus and his Sermon on the Mount, anticipate life eternal, etc., yet not be burdened with doctrines and practices rooted in ancient understandings but alien to the modern, educated mind. **

I think you give far too much credit to this “modern, educated mind.”

But there is one thing that I have never from my youth up been able to understand. I have never been able to understand where people got the idea that democracy was in some way opposed to tradition. It is obvious that tradition is only democracy extended through time. It is trusting to a consensus of common human voices rather than to some isolated or arbitrary record. The man who quotes some German historian against the tradition of the Catholic Church, for instance, is strictly appealing to aristocracy. He is appealing to the superiority of one expert against the awful authority of a mob. It is quite easy to see why a legend is treated, and ought to be treated, more respectfully than a book of history. The legend is generally made by the majority of people in the village, who are sane. The book is generally written by the one man in the village who is mad. Those who urge against tradition that men in the past were ignorant may go and urge it at the Carlton Club, along with the statement that voters in the slums are ignorant. It will not do for us. If we attach great importance to the opinion of ordinary men in great unanimity when we are dealing with daily matters, there is no reason why we should disregard it when we are dealing with history or fable. Tradition may be defined as an extension of the franchise. Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about. All democrats object to men being disqualified by the accident of birth; tradition objects to their being disqualified by the accident of death. Democracy tells us not to neglect a good man’s opinion, even if he is our groom; tradition asks us not to neglect a good man’s opinion, even if he is our father. I, at any rate, cannot separate the two ideas of democracy and tradition; it seems evident to me that they are the same idea. We will have the dead at our councils. The ancient Greeks voted by stones; these shall vote by tombstones. It is all quite regular and official, for most tombstones, like most ballot papers, are marked with a cross.

 

[Roy5]

Recently the Sunday announcement bulletin distributed at Mass carried the five countries where people were found to be happiest, placed in the bulletin as part of the priest’s weekly column.

 What struck me is that all five are thriving democracies and Protestant-majority countries. Does that tell us anything? Probably not, but interesting nonetheless.

  The greatest and oldest democracy probably is the USA, though it took some time evolving into what we have today. The USA, of course, was founded by Protestants. 55 of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence were Protestants - heretics, according to Catholicism until Vatican II, when a more benevolent attitude was adopted. I wonder how much this blanket condemnation of Protestantism contributed to hostility toward the Catholic Church in the USA over the years??? 

 As much as there is much in Catholicism that I deeply admire, when it comes to theology I find myself more in accord with mainline Protestantism which permits a wide variation when it comes to doctrines and such. Methodists, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, members of the UCC and others are permitted and even encouraged to think individually and independently without being condemned for variation from traditional teachings. 

 For example, if you believe in Adam and Eve, fine, If you don't, fine. If you believe that God sent two she-bears to tear apart 42 youth who made fun of Elisha's bald head, fine. If you think that is a ridiculous story, that okay, too. If you believe that Jesus put demons into pigs that then went headlong to their death down a cliff, fine, If you doubt that account from the gospels, that's acceptable, also. Some of us need such freedom. 

  Let us work to fashion religion into a bridge rather than a barrier.

 

[CopticChristian]

Recently the Sunday announcement bulletin distributed at Mass carried the five countries where people were found to be happiest, placed in the bulletin as part of the priest’s weekly column.

** What struck me is that all five are thriving democracies and Protestant-majority countries. Does that tell us anything? Probably not, but interesting nonetheless.**
The greatest and oldest democracy probably is the USA, though it took some time evolving into what we have today. The USA, of course, was founded by Protestants. 55 of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence were Protestants - heretics, according to Catholicism until Vatican II, when a more benevolent attitude was adopted. I wonder how much this blanket condemnation of Protestantism contributed to hostility toward the Catholic Church in the USA over the years???

 As much as there is much in Catholicism that I deeply admire, when it comes to theology I find myself more in accord with mainline Protestantism which permits a wide variation when it comes to doctrines and such. Methodists, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, members of the UCC and others are permitted and even encouraged to think individually and independently without being condemned for variation from traditional teachings. 

 For example, if you believe in Adam and Eve, fine, If you don't, fine. If you believe that God sent two she-bears to tear apart 42 youth who made fun of Elisha's bald head, fine. If you think that is a ridiculous story, that okay, too. If you believe that Jesus put demons into pigs that then went headlong to their death down a cliff, fine, If you doubt that account from the gospels, that's acceptable, also. Some of us need such freedom. 

  Let us work to fashion religion into a bridge rather than a barrier.

This tells me nothing as it is a generality. Name the countries.