I'm not a Catholic because

[AbideWithMe]

Perhaps you are correct, but honoring one’s father and mother is an important commandment. There are rabbinical commentaries and stories which indicate that even when a parent is abusive, a child owes them respect. They would certainly never be considered enemies, as the passage states.

Meltzerboy—

You were asking about the verses in Matthew 10 where Jesus talks about family members turning against each other because of him…

Yes, it is a troubling passage. I used to know an Orthodox Jew who recommended a series of tapes by Rabbi Toviah Singer—a passionate but very polemical speaker; Rabbi Singer brought up this passage as an indication (if I recall correctly) that Jesus was going against the revealed character of God.

Well, I can see Rabbi Singer’s point to an extent. Part–not all, but part—of the reason I have the beliefs I do is because I’ve seen the love of God lived out in my family and other Christian friends, and thus the Christian faith is real to me. I would venture that ideally we are meant to have our faith handed on to us by parents who authentically lived out the love of God, and therefore we can honor that love we’ve been shown in our family even as we choose our religious beliefs for ourselves as adults. I don’t see that as an unhealthy attachment to our family, but rather an acknowledgment that out of the many competing religious systems out there, we’ve found God right within our boring old families.

So it kind of saddens me that Jesus said what he did here—it seems like a breakdown of the way God meant things to be. But…here’s my thought: maybe it saddens God, too. It’s easy to read Jesus’ words in Matthew 10 in an inflammatory way, like he thinks these divisions and “turning against” predictions are a thing he relishes. But perhaps he was simply describing -----with great sorrow----the reality of what would happen because of him.

 

[barbhorses]

Then I guess you wont like this World Coins article that also uses the name Jehovah. I am also aware that the translation into English isn’t likely exact as ancient Hebrew doesn’t contain vowels which makes you guess as to which vowels were used. I am sure you will be shocked that Karl IX of Sweden’s royal latin motto is: “Jehovah solatium meum”. He was alive when Queen Elizabeth I was ruling. Clearly, the name Jehovah was in use far before Jehovah’s Witnesses came into being. Which (by the way) was just continuing the reformation. Finding truth just like the Protestants had done before them.

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I am not a baptized JW, but I am very familiar with them and what they believe. They are not a cult, but a group of loving people who believe the same thing and want to follow Christ’s example that he set for us (hence the going door to door just like Jesus went village to village spreading the news about his Father). The fact that you can go anywhere in the world and encounter people of the same faith that believe in the same thing shows the UNITY of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Which to me, this unity and loving attitude shows that God is behind them. They are also not involved in politics or wars (Jesus said that his followers would not be apart of this world).

 

[ltwin]

Why are you not a Catholic?

Biggest reason: Papal infallibility. I don’t believe it.

2nd Biggest reason: Transubstantiation

3rd Biggest reason: Purgatory. I don’t get it. I don’t get confession and penance and the treasury of merits and I just don’t get a lot of things having to do with the Catholic Church.

Other reasons: Liturgical worship. I can see the beauty in it. However, I believe that liturgy captures and tames the dynamism of the Spirit in Christian worship. I just don’t get church services where everything is planned out. What room is left for the Spirit to do what he wants to do?

 

[Roy5]

TarkanAttila

** Thanks for your response.** However, to believe that because a religion or a theology is old makes it right is questionable. Hinduism, Buddhsm, Judaism etc are older than Christianity, so maybe they are right. Actually, there is much in other faiths that is to be respected. One problem with historic Catholicism - to me, at least - is that for centuries it dealt cruelly with ‘heretics’. Even Aquinas argued that heretics should be delivered over to the civil authorities to be executed!

** And, of course, the Church challenged Copernicus and Galileo for generations**. Finally she got around to apologizing to them, even reburying Copernicus with honor if I heard that story correctly.
**
I spent many hours reading the Church Fathers and found that they were brilliant for their era, but they had totally false concepts of the universe, of illness, etc**. Because their telescopes were primitive and microscopes weren’t yet in existence they embraced ideas that today we would consider primitive and certainly false. They would argue, for example, that illness could be a punishment or a test because they didn’t have a clue as to the germ theory.

** This idea that there is only one truth and that this truth rests within Catholicism is simplistic.** Most religions have some truth, but most religions also incorporate a considerable amount of superstition from ancient times. Ancient Hinduism. Buddhism and Judaism had their miracles. I wonder: was the angel of death really sent to kill the first-born male of every Egyptian home? Sorry, but I doubt that. What about Elisha? Some youth teased Elisha because of his baldness. Elisha cursed them in the name of the Lord and two she-bears came out of the woods and mauled 42 youth in retaliation. Wait a minute! Give me a break!

** A famous preacher said years ago that “I can only believe in a God that I cannot understand.”** I agree. That is why God is God.

 **Let me add that if people are devout Catholics, Protestants, Hindus, Buddhists, etc., and basically live by the Gilden Rule - fine.** I stayed with a Hindu family in India some years ago and felt that if they didn't get to 'heaven' I probably wouldn't make it. This notion that there is just one true religion has been a bane over the centuries. Think of all the killing in the name of God! The Lord must have shed many tears about how he was so grosslyt misunderstood.

 My own attraction - despite Catholic heritage on my paternal side - is to mainline Protestantism. It seems to preach the love of Christ while avoiding strict doctrine. Their congregations appear to permit and even welcome a diversity of opinion. This diversity exists among Catholics, too, and attempts to squash it will only lead to a further exodus. Modern, educated humankind is going to 'think and let think'.

** As stated already, there is much about Catholicism to be admired, but insistence that it alone is the one true, apostolic faith is not one of them.** I recall visiting with Egyptian Copts when in Egypt who have their own Pope they trace back to St. Mark. They feel that they and certain other mideastern Christian groups are those who embrace the one true faith. The Russian, Greek and other Orthodox take issue with Rome, also. Etc.
**
Let us make religion a bridge instead of a barrier**. Pious, arrogant and narrow religious tribalism has caused enormous injustice and outright murder over the centuries.

 

[meltzerboy]

Meltzerboy—

You were asking about the verses in Matthew 10 where Jesus talks about family members turning against each other because of him…

Yes, it is a troubling passage. I used to know an Orthodox Jew who recommended a series of tapes by Rabbi Toviah Singer—a passionate but very polemical speaker; Rabbi Singer brought up this passage as an indication (if I recall correctly) that Jesus was going against the revealed character of God.

Well, I can see Rabbi Singer’s point to an extent. Part–not all, but part—of the reason I have the beliefs I do is because I’ve seen the love of God lived out in my family and other Christian friends, and thus the Christian faith is real to me. I would venture that ideally we are meant to have our faith handed on to us by parents who authentically lived out the love of God, and therefore we can honor that love we’ve been shown in our family even as we choose our religious beliefs for ourselves as adults. I don’t see that as an unhealthy attachment to our family, but rather an acknowledgment that out of the many competing religious systems out there, we’ve found God right within our boring old families.

So it kind of saddens me that Jesus said what he did here—it seems like a breakdown of the way God meant things to be. But…here’s my thought: maybe it saddens God, too. It’s easy to read Jesus’ words in Matthew 10 in an inflammatory way, like he thinks these divisions and “turning against” predictions are a thing he relishes. But perhaps he was simply describing -----with great sorrow----the reality of what would happen because of him.

I like your interpretation of Jesus’ words in Matthew. To me, it makes more sense and is more in accord with Jesus’ teaching and that of Torah than His inciting family members to turn against one another for the purpose of following Him. Thanks for your response.

I’m familiar with Rabbi Tovia Singer. Yes, he is a passionate Jewish apologist and I usually agree with his ideas. I was not aware of his criticism of this passage.

 

[TarkanAttila]

TarkanAttila

** Thanks for your response.** However, to believe that because a religion or a theology is old makes it right is questionable. Hinduism, Buddhsm, Judaism etc are older than Christianity, so maybe they are right. Actually, there is much in other faiths that is to be respected. One problem with historic Catholicism - to me, at least - is that for centuries it dealt cruelly with ‘heretics’…

Maybe. But what I am saying is that we have had more time to develop our theology. Meanwhile, infantile churches criticise Catholic theology before they’ve even had time to construct a proper theology of their own. How can you criticise what you do not have a particular view on yourself, except that what the other guy teaches is wrong?

Protestants also dealt with heretics and non-Christians sometimes just as cruelly. All humans are guilty of some sin or another. Cruelty to those with differing opinions is not unique to anyone, including Protestants. English Protestants were very cruel to Irish Catholics for centuries. Individual Protestant congregations can be very hostile to other Protestants, even within the same neighbourhood.

As troubling as ad hominem arguments are, they ultimately don’t tell us which is the correct religion.

** And, of course, the Church challenged Copernicus and Galileo for generations**. Finally she got around to apologizing to them, even reburying Copernicus with honor if I heard that story correctly.

Over theological problems Galileo was challenged. I do not recall exactly what the problem was, but it was not that the Earth was round. Thomas Aquinas also believed
the Earth was round, centuries before Galileo. It also was not over the idea of a heliocentric model of the solar system. But I believe Galileo was implying something theologically that Rome did not quite agree with at the time. I could be wrong.

But even the Jesuit astronomers agreed that Galileo’s heliocentric model was correct.

  ** I spent many hours reading the Church Fathers and found that they were brilliant for their era, but they had totally false concepts of the universe, of illness, etc**. ... we would consider primitive and certainly false. They would argue, for example, that illness could be a punishment or a test ....

We still could argue that illness is a test or a punishment from God because that is not a biological theory. It is a theological one, of which I believe it may be sometimes.

I admit that the Church Fathers did have a primitive understanding of the sciences AS WE KNOW THEM. And scientists today may look very silly and primitive in the centuries to come (if the Lord does not come before then).

But theologically Christianity’s been very consistent throughout the millenia. What could be applied to Polycarp could be applied to John Chrysostom could be applied to Thomas Aquinas could be applied to Cardinal Newman could be applied to Archbishop Sheen could be applied today.

** This idea that there is only one truth and that this truth rests within Catholicism is simplistic.** Most religions have some truth, but most religions also incorporate a considerable amount of superstition from ancient times.

No less does the Catholic Church believe. IIRC we declared in Vatican II that there is “a ray of truth” in all religions, most especially Judaism upon which Christianity is built. And Protestants are not far off the mark. The Orthodox are probably the closest. But only the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth. That is what we profess to believe - we don’t believe God excludes others, but that others do not have Him completely.

 

[TarkanAttila]

(continued…)

… I wonder: was the angel of death really sent to kill the first-born male of every Egyptian home? Sorry, but I doubt that. What about Elisha? Some youth teased Elisha because of his baldness. Elisha cursed them in the name of the Lord and two she-bears came out of the woods and mauled 42 youth in retaliation. …

Could have happened. Who is to say God must limit His miracles to Jews and Christians? Life itself, and order itself is a miracle we are a part of every second of our lives.

What amazes me, though, is not that God works through such extraordinary means as the ten plagues, or the multiplying of loaves. Those are wonderful and awesome things. Even more awesome is when the cry of a child, or the beggar on the streets soften the heart of a man to be moved toward God’s will. These sorts of things are what I’ve heard called “ordinary” or “little” miracles - the kind most people would mistake for coincidences or just ordinary events, but which really strike a chord with someone.

…I stayed with a Hindu family in India some years ago and felt that if they didn’t get to ‘heaven’ I probably wouldn’t make it.

I don’t follow. How does their salvation hinge upon yours? Your only job is to let them know the Good News and try to bring them to Christ; it’s their choice to accept or reject it.

…Think of all the killing in the name of God! The Lord must have shed many tears about how he was so grossly misunderstood.

I agree that killing in the name of God is wrong. So does Our Lord, who said that if you brother slaps us on one cheek we ought to turn the other. But I think that the killing that has occurred is because people DO NOT follow the religion they claim to be defending! Christ called us to DIE for others, to Go the Extra Mile for those who persecute us - not to be rebels and defy authority because it is oppressive, but to give authority its due, and show them the glory of God.

THAT is Christianity. Not this diluted, pluralist, relativist thing that’s supposed to please everyone and where nobody gets angry or dies. And also not the highly politicised tool kings and emperors and politicians both past and present have used it for. Religion is not a tool for politicians. It is not supposed to be a grandparent which coddles you, nor a demon which denigrates you. Religion, most especially the Catholic (and dare I say Orthodox) religion is the truth of God, nothing less.

…Protestantism. It seems to preach the love of Christ while avoiding strict doctrine. Their congregations appear to permit and even welcome a diversity of opinion. This diversity exists among Catholics, too, and attempts to squash it will only lead to a further exodus. Modern, educated humankind is going to ‘think and let think’.

Sure. While we must all dogmatically believe that science knows everything about the world. The evolution and quantum physics and the rest of that gobbeldygook is the ONLY way to see the world. Riiiiight.

It exists among some Catholics. But upon some issues, there is no room for diversity. There are absolutes in Catholicism, and deference with these makes one heterodox, or at worst, a heretic (or quite simply, not fully Catholic). If we did not have certain absolutes - such as the authority of Tradition (of which Scripture is a part), the Divinity of Christ Jesus, and the earthly authority of the bishops and of the Pope - why shouldn’t WE also be Protestants?

Indeed, Protestants have their own absolutes. No authority BUT Scripture. No action is needed to be saved, BUT faith. No man need do anything for grace BUT Jesus Christ. One can be as strict or as liberal as you like as a Protestant. For on what authority does Protestantism stand? All stands not on Apostolic teaching, nor the Tradition of God, nor the Church, nor even the consistency of the Christian religion. All stands on the Bible in Protestantism. The rest is optional.

And look where it’s gotten Protestants.

** …insistence that [Catholicism] alone is the one true, apostolic faith is not one of them.** I recall visiting with Egyptian Copts when in Egypt who have their own Pope they trace back to St. Mark. They feel that they and certain other mideastern Christian groups are those who embrace the one true faith. …

You would be surprised how Catholic the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox actually are. They didn’t drop books of the Bible or important dogmas, and they didn’t make up heresies like Nestorianism, Arianism, and Protestantism. But they speak in different terms than Catholics. The Church has already declared that Orthodoxy is truly Christian, and their teachings are not at difference with our own. Their liturgies, clergy, sacraments, and teachings are all valid and Catholic. We even have certain Orthodox churches who acknowledge this agreement that Rome and Constantinople have in their theologies. We call them “Eastern Catholic Churches”.

**
Let us make religion a bridge instead of a barrier**. Pious, arrogant and narrow religious tribalism has caused enormous injustice and outright murder over the centuries.

Agreed; but we must continue to search for the truth, and we must not politicise religion (or science for that matter) or turn it into some tool for feeling good, or putting people into fear.

Theology is a science; it is a search for the truth of God. In it we learn about God. How to please Him. How to love and serve Him. What His plan is for us and the human race. What good Christian wouldn’t want to know these things?

 

[atheistgirl]

The fact that you can go anywhere in the world and **encounter people of the same faith that believe in the same thing **shows the UNITY of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Which to me, this unity and loving attitude shows that God is behind them.

By that logic you can then also see God is behind Catholics, Baptists, Muslims, etc

 

[barbhorses]

By that logic you can then also see God is behind Catholics, Baptists, Muslims, etc

No you can’t. That is like saying that because you are an atheist that you can go anywhere in the world and stay at an another atheist’s house and know full well that they are good people and that you will be safe (my sister stayed a month in Japan with complete strangers that are JW and because of that we all knew she would be safe. She had a wonderful time and wants to go back). You are applying what I said not in the context in which I was meaning.

 

[barbhorses]

Yet, they hold Christian values and do not practice things that lie in paganism (the Catholic church has included many customs from other cultures into the church so that it would be easier for the other culture to convert. Such is the case with celebrating birthdays where blowing out a candle on a cake is all symbolic and lies in paganism. The reason why birthdays were originally celebrated by the pagans was that they believe that your personal magic is the greatest on your birthday and that if you make a wish and then blow out a candle on your birthday that it will have a much greater chance of coming true). The fact that JW’s reject many of these practices that lie in paganism is what sets them apart. However, by doing so also shows their earnest effort to follow Christ and not get swept up in tradition (the Jews were so involved in tradition that when the promised Messiah came they didn’t even realize it!). Read any of the JW literature or listen to a talk and you will notice that they are packed full of Biblical verses. In other words, proving that what is being taught is God’s word and not someone’s imperfect opinion.

On paganism, I went to school with a gal that practiced the Wican religion. Apparently, it is a big joke in their religion that the “Christians” also incorporate their own pagan practices in Christianity.

 

[fbl9]

Yet, they hold Christian values and do not practice things that lie in paganism (the Catholic church has included many customs from other cultures into the church so that it would be easier for the other culture to convert. Such is the case with celebrating birthdays where blowing out a candle on a cake is all symbolic and lies in paganism. The reason why birthdays were originally celebrated by the pagans was that they believe that your personal magic is the greatest on your birthday and that if you make a wish and then blow out a candle on your birthday that it will have a much greater chance of coming true). The fact that JW’s reject many of these practices that lie in paganism is what sets them apart. However, by doing so also shows their earnest effort to follow Christ and not get swept up in tradition (the Jews were so involved in tradition that when the promised Messiah came they didn’t even realize it!). Read any of the JW literature or listen to a talk and you will notice that they are packed full of Biblical verses. In other words, proving that what is being taught is God’s word and not someone’s imperfect opinion.

On paganism, I went to school with a gal that practiced the Wican religion. Apparently, it is a big joke in their religion that the “Christians” also incorporate their own pagan practices in Christianity.

please o please cite the teaching of the CC that says one has to have a cake and candles.
What is a joke is how some can twist something to their own agenda.

 

[andrewstx]

Yet, they hold Christian values and do not practice things that lie in paganism (the Catholic church has included many customs from other cultures into the church so that it would be easier for the other culture to convert. Such is the case with celebrating birthdays where blowing out a candle on a cake is all symbolic and lies in paganism. The reason why birthdays were originally celebrated by the pagans was that they believe that your personal magic is the greatest on your birthday and that if you make a wish and then blow out a candle on your birthday that it will have a much greater chance of coming true). The fact that JW’s reject many of these practices that lie in paganism is what sets them apart. However, by doing so also shows their earnest effort to follow Christ and not get swept up in tradition (the Jews were so involved in tradition that when the promised Messiah came they didn’t even realize it!). Read any of the JW literature or listen to a talk and you will notice that they are packed full of Biblical verses. In other words, proving that what is being taught is God’s word and not someone’s imperfect opinion.

On paganism, I went to school with a gal that practiced the Wican religion. Apparently, it is a big joke in their religion that the “Christians” also incorporate their own pagan practices in Christianity.

What???

I have never heard of birthday cakes being of pagan origin, and never would except for you.

We celebrate the birth of Jesus at nativity and thats it.

We celebrate the ressurection of Jesus at Pascha/Easter, period.

Wny should we listen to a member of a cult that denies the Holy Trinity and who beleives that Jesus is just one of many Sons of God, and the Archangel Michael?

Your cult is like 125 years old invented by a man who kept guesssing wrongly about the return of Jesus, or is it the Archangel?

The Catholic church was founded by Jesus 2,000 years ago. Your cult by “judge” Rutherford less than 200 years ago.

I converted from another Joyless, misery promoting sect. They did not use the Christian calendar because their “god” the bible did not give permission.

 

[barbhorses]

What???

I have never heard of birthday cakes being of pagan origin, and never would except for you.

We celebrate the birth of Jesus at nativity and thats it.

We celebrate the ressurection of Jesus at Pascha/Easter, period.

Wny should we listen to a member of a cult that denies the Holy Trinity and who beleives that Jesus is just one of many Sons of God, and the Archangel Michael?

Your cult is like 125 years old invented by a man who kept guesssing wrongly about the return of Jesus, or is it the Archangel?

The Catholic church was founded by Jesus 2,000 years ago. Your cult by “judge” Rutherford less than 200 years ago.

I converted from another Joyless, misery promoting sect. They did not use the Christian calendar because their “god” the bible did not give permission.

ummm OK, I thought that it was supposedly founded (but cannot substantiate) by the apostle Peter?

Why do you call it a cult? Also, if you did research you would find that Christmas, birthdays, Easter, etc. are founded on pagan ideas. I thought that the fact that the Catholic church incorporated beliefs from other cultures to make it easier for those other cultures to covert to Catholicism was widely known.

Again, the gal I know that is a pagan from school (she use to be Catholic ironically enough in Germany) thinks it amusing that people that proclaim to be Christian celebrate holidays that are based on the ancient pagan beliefs that she celebrates. Certainly, I am bringing up old news if anything.

 

[barbhorses]

please o please cite the teaching of the CC that says one has to have a cake and candles.
What is a joke is how some can twist something to their own agenda.

My research on the topic revealed birthdays to have a pagan origin. You have to wonder then why it is the custom or tradition to have cake and candles and to blow out the candles and make a wish on your birthday.

 

[andrewstx]

ummm OK, I thought that it was supposedly founded (but cannot substantiate) by the apostle Peter?

Why do you call it a cult? Also, if you did research you would find that Christmas, birthdays, Easter, etc. are founded on pagan ideas. I thought that the fact that the Catholic church incorporated beliefs from other cultures to make it easier for those other cultures to covert to Catholicism was widely known.

Again, the gal I know that is a pagan from school (she use to be Catholic ironically enough in Germany) thinks it amusing that people that proclaim to be Christian celebrate holidays that are based on the ancient pagan beliefs that she celebrates. Certainly, I am bringing up old news if anything.

I call a cult a cult because it is one.

To me it makes no difference what the origins of holidays may be. We are not pagans, we have our own interpretations of the CHRISTIAN calendar.

Mithra and saturn have no meaning or import to me or other Catholics, we don’t care.

As I said I came from another joyless sect. Nothing can be more miserable than entering a cold church on Christmas day when the birth of Christ is not mentioned. They would not have services except Christmas day happens to fall on Sunday once in a while. That was becuse their bible/idol does not “authorise” or give permision for it. I worship one God in unity in Trinity, not a book.

The JWs cult was founded by a human, has it’s own scriptures (New World translation). is very different from orthodox Christianity. JWs like my former sect thinks they will be the only ones in heaven and then only what 15,000?

JWs stick to themselves for the most part, shun others and even their own members when they get out of line.

Why do you guys insist on calling God by a name? Do you believe their are other Gods in existence you have to distingiush “jehovah” from? Why does God need a proper name when their is only one God?

Just to recap. I could care less about pagan roots, becuse I am no pagan.

 

[Roy5]

We can debate and debate, but there is a gulf between those who accept whatever the church or the scriptures say. For many of us, a growing number, we accept the main ethical focus of Christianity - love God and one another - without embracing what we see as ‘superstitions’ that continue within bothb Catholicism and Protestantism.

 I mean no offense, but millions of decent Christians simply cannot hand their minds over to some church, as Catholics are asked to do, or to a book (the Bible) as evangelical Protestants must do. We claim the right to think on our own. There are Catholic doctrines that seem (excuse the bluntness) to have been borrowed from non-Christian sources, some of those concerning transubstantiation, Mary, etc. There are parts of the Bible that are alien to Christianity, parts of the Bible that evangelical Protestants are required to believe.

 Examples: did God actually order Joshua to slaughter the inhabitants of Jericho once the walls fell down? did God demand that Saul commit genocide against every living Amalekite. even (as the Bible says" sucklings" and babies in the womb? Of course not! The God of love and justie would never ask for such atrocities committed in his name!

 But enough. If you want to insist that the Catholic church alone has the truth, fine. Believe it. But don't expect millions of educated, well-read and open-minded people to agree with you. Thirty millions ex-Catholics in the USA should tell us something. Mainline Protestantism seems to tolerate a diversity of opinion. I find that appealing, since I have come to feel that the ultimate truth is beyond our human knowledge. "Now we see through a glass darkly...."  And it doesn't do much good to quote selected verses of scripture to refute this approach. There is much in scripture that I find offensive and which the church ignores. Much of the Sermon on the Mount, for example. And I hear women read the scriptures at Mass often, even though St. Paul clearly says that women should keep silent in the churches. And certainly not teach men! Tell that to Mother Angelica and others!

 God bless people of every creed, color, culture and country. You don't preach Christianity by demonstrating such hubris as to insist that my church alone preaches the full truth. Christianity preaches humility, peace and love while Christians too often preach arrogance, conflict, and hostility. .

 

[TarkanAttila]

Roy, you sound like you only want to believe what you think is right. Perhaps that is stating the obvious. But the truth is not always what YOU as an imperfect, flawed, sometimes sinful human, think it is. It is what God, in all His wisdom, power, and perfection, makes it, and nothing can change that, not even your appeal to human intellect. Yes, there are many hard things to understand in the Bible. Like the vow of Jephthah, or the rape of Tamar, or the genocide that has occurred in Israelite history. The question is not “Did these things actually happen?”. It is “Why did these things actually happen?”.

You continue to look dimly through your dim glass. Remain in ignorance. Forever fear that which you choose not to understand. Don’t bother to find the truth, even though it has already been found. And what a glorious truth it is.

As for the dogmas of the Catholic Church, we only derive them from Tradition (which includes Scripture, as well as Apostolic Tradition) and from logic. You can find dozens if not thousands of articles, threads, and writings about all of those. In fact, you can find explanations for those dogmas yourself right here on Catholic Answers if you wish to understand. Please, if you claim to use your own mind, use it to understand others.

That’s something which a lot of atheists - a small but growing minority in the developed world - don’t know how to do. Since they’re growing, are they telling us something? Perhaps that religion and theology is a farce? That men don’t need God anymore? That technology is all we need?

Or perhaps that the kind of intellectual relativism you propose, where “millions of educated, well-read and open-minded people” decide for themselves, without any authority or proper basis whatsoever, leads to this kind of atheistic nonsense?

You remind me very much of a fellow whom my fellow “Apostle of Common Sense” fans are bound to know very well, Standford Nutting. So prone to listen to the eloquence of man and not the wisdom of God…

What to do about you relativists, I dunno…

 

[meltzerboy]

ummm OK, I thought that it was supposedly founded (but cannot substantiate) by the apostle Peter?

Why do you call it a cult? Also, if you did research you would find that Christmas, birthdays, Easter, etc. are founded on pagan ideas. I thought that the fact that the Catholic church incorporated beliefs from other cultures to make it easier for those other cultures to covert to Catholicism was widely known.

Again, the gal I know that is a pagan from school (she use to be Catholic ironically enough in Germany) thinks it amusing that people that proclaim to be Christian celebrate holidays that are based on the ancient pagan beliefs that she celebrates. Certainly, I am bringing up old news if anything.

It depends on the meaning of cult, and there are more than one definition. A religious cult sometimes refers to a group that calls itself Christian but deviates significantly from basic Christian dogma. Jehovah’s Witnesses and perhaps Mormonism, Seventh-Day Adventists, and Christian Scientists may fit this definition. On the other hand, another meaning of cult, whether it is religious or political, involves a charismatic leader who exerts mind control over its group members. This definition carries very negative connotations. I don’t believe Jehovah’s Witnesses is a cult in this sense. Personally, I prefer to think of Jehovah’s Witnesses as another religious branch of Christianity, rather than belonging to Protestantism, and one which has its own beliefs about who Jesus represents.

 

[fbl9]

 I mean no offense, but millions of decent Christians simply cannot hand their minds over to some church, as Catholics are asked to do, or to a book (the Bible) as evangelical Protestants must do. We claim the right to think on our own. There are Catholic doctrines that seem (excuse the bluntness) to have been borrowed from non-Christian sources, some of those concerning transubstantiation, Mary, etc. There are parts of the Bible that are alien to Christianity, parts of the Bible that evangelical Protestants are required to believe.

 Examples: did God actually order Joshua to slaughter the inhabitants of Jericho once the walls fell down? did God demand that Saul commit genocide against every living Amalekite. even (as the Bible says" sucklings" and babies in the womb? Of course not! The God of love and justie would never ask for such atrocities committed in his name!

.

Well Roy time to be honest for you.You brought up the “pagan doctrine” card you have one of two choices 1) drop christainity altogether cause of the “pagan doctrine” of the virgin birth and Jesus rising from the dead. 2)drop the “pagan doctrine” agrument altogehter and realign your thinking.
But yet you seem to have no trouble accepting that God sent His only Son to die in a most cruel way.

 

[andrewstx]

Roy, I think you should be a Unitarian. They have no dogma. I have known Jewish and Wiccan and atheist Unitarians.

They seem to be in a practical faith putting service to others and world peace above any religious doctrine they may or not have.

That seems from what I have read you say the perfect faith for you.

Everything by Unitarians is relative. Just as it seems you are.

I am sorry if I have misread you, and I mean no offence at all.