I'm not a Catholic because

[Candlepower]

QUOTE=PJM;8716507]***My dear Friend in Christ,

Be that as it may; that is not what God wants, commands and desires.

Keep in mind the following facts:***The Bible is a Catholic Book

The CC collected the books to be included into the OT
Men known today to have been the FIRST Catholics Authored the entire NT
And one of the “key’s” given to Peter [and the CC] was the EXCLUSIVE ability to know the fullness of the teachings and to be able to share them. NO-ONE else can do this

**2 Cor. 4: 2 **“We have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways; we refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing".[And this is precisely what EVERY Protestanr denomination does]

**Eph.3: 9 to 12 ** “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [SINGULAR: meaning THE CATHOLIC Church] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confidence of access through our faith in him"

Matt.13:9-12 “He who has ears, let him hear." Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?”*** And he [JESUS] answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.”*** For to him who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.”

**John.10: 16 **“And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. **So there shall be one flock, one shepherd” **

**Eph. 2:19-20 **“So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

**Eph. 3: 9-10 ** “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [singular] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,"

My friend despite the plenitude of MORTAL-MEN’S promises; Salvation is through the CC ALONE. Only the CC has the ability to actually REMIT sins, and to practice fully the teachings and beliefs REQUIRED BY GOD HIMSELF.

Man-devised way’s ARE easier by intent: BUT they will NOT and DO NOT work; because they oppose what God Himself TEACHES.

And yes, I can support these claims biblically.

God Bless and GUDE you [and your’s] to HIS Truths!

Merry Christmas!
Pat

Pardon me for being contrary here, but I don’t understand how you can claim the Bible as exclusively Roman Catholic. The canon was compiled by councils that did not operate under the sole authority of the Bishop of Rome and as a matter of historical fact became part of the Orthodox church. St. Jerome who is a canonized saint and who compiled the Vulgate even set aside the apocrypha but the pope included it as Scripture. I can’t see how Catholics can claim the Bible exclusively in the midst of all these inconsistencies.

 

[PJM]

=Candlepower;

Pardon me for being contrary here, but I don’t understand how you can claim the Bible as exclusively Roman Catholic. The canon was compiled by councils that did not operate under the sole authority of the Bishop of Rome and as a matter of historical fact became part of the Orthodox church. St. Jerome who is a canonized saint and who compiled the Vulgate even set aside the apocrypha but the pope included it as Scripture. I can’t see how Catholics can claim the Bible exclusively in the midst of all these inconsistencies.

Perhpas, but what your missing is that it is THE POPE who is protected by the HS, who holds and controls the keys and who God appointed and continues to guide, guard and protect on ALL matters of required Faith beliefs and Moral issues.

It is the POPE Alone or in Magisterium that this is exclusive too.

John.14:16 to 17 “And I [JESUS] will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.”

THIS IS ACCOMPLSHED:** Jn. 20:21-22** "Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” [MEANING WITH GOD’S ACTUAL POWERS AND AUTHORITY; AND INFALLIBILITY ON THESE TO BRAOD CATOGORIES]And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

And ONLY the Pope and the CC have Jesus Himself as warranty of what She [Mother Church /the Bride of Christ], proclaimes and teaches on Faith and Moral issues.

Jn.17:15-19 "I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. ** Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth*. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.****** And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth***

God cannot lie, and God cannot deny His own request.

Jerome is a good and holy man; but NOT infallible as is the Pope.

I pray this clarifies the issue for you.

God Bles and Merry Christmas,
Pat

 

[Candlepower]

Perhpas, but what your missing is that it is THE POPE who is protected by the HS, who holds and controls the keys and who God appointed and continues to guide, guard and protect on ALL matters of required Faith beliefs and Moral issues.

It is the POPE Alone or in Magisterium that this is exclusive too.

What I am saying is that I see nothing in Scripture that substaniates what you claim about the pope. I know you keep quoting Scripture, but it doesn’t point to what you are saying without twists. This is truly why I left the Catholic church years ago. That and the fact that the Early Church (which RCs claim to be themselves) didn’t have this pure, absolute and final authority in the Bishop of Rome, purgatory, Marian dogmas and several other ideals that purely come from the pope and not Scripture. AND Infallibility wasn’t even established until much much later. None of it adds up.

 

[Nicea325]

What I am saying is that I see nothing in Scripture that substaniates what you claim about the pope. I know you keep quoting Scripture, but it doesn’t point to what you are saying without twists. This is truly why I left the Catholic church years ago. That and the fact that the Early Church (which RCs claim to be themselves) didn’t have this pure, absolute and final authority in the Bishop of Rome, purgatory, Marian dogmas and several other ideals that purely come from the pope and not Scripture. AND Infallibility wasn’t even established until much much later. None of it adds up.

Without twists? So did the early church fathers also twist things? The early church didn’t have this pure,absolute an final authority in the Bishop of Rome? Really? Care to provide the other ancient sources supporting another “tradition” which superseded the primacy of Bishop of Rome? Infaillibility wasn’t established until much later? Wrong! You apparently do not understand doctrinal development. The Trinity was not defined and made official until 325 A.D. Does that add up to you?

 

[GaryTaylor]

What I am saying is that I see nothing in Scripture that substaniates what you claim about the pope. I know you keep quoting Scripture, but it doesn’t point to what you are saying without twists. This is truly why I left the Catholic church years ago. That and the fact that the Early Church (which RCs claim to be themselves) didn’t have this pure, absolute and final authority in the Bishop of Rome, purgatory, Marian dogmas and several other ideals that purely come from the pope and not Scripture. AND Infallibility wasn’t even established until much much later. None of it adds up.

You don’t agree that Apostolic Succession is Biblical?

Infallibility rests on the Mystical Body of Christ guided by the Holy Spirit. Its been in the Apostolic Churchs since day one. All the Apostolic Churchs follow this belief, be it they are in schism or not.

The early churchs didn’t follow the Bishop of Rome? What substanciates your claim? Certainly not Bible or the writtings of the ECFs.

 

[Nicea325]

You don’t agree that Apostolic Succession is Biblical?

Infallibility rests on the Mystical Body of Christ guided by the Holy Spirit. Its been in the Apostolic Churchs since day one. All the Apostolic Churchs follow this belief, be it they are in schism or not.

The early churchs didn’t follow the Bishop of Rome? What substanciates your claim? Certainly not Bible or the writtings of the ECFs.

None! It is all based on biased views and lack of not knowing history,plain and simple. It never amazes me at the amount of claims and charges so many hold against the CC,yet provide zilch to prove it or support it.

 

[Candlepower]

Without twists? So did the early church fathers also twist things? The early church didn’t have this pure,absolute an final authority in the Bishop of Rome? Really? Care to provide the other ancient sources supporting another “tradition” which superseded the primacy of Bishop of Rome? Infaillibility wasn’t established until much later? Wrong! You apparently do not understand doctrinal development. The Trinity was not defined and made official until 325 A.D. Does that add up to you?

The Trinity is established clearly throughout Scripture, what about the papacy?? Can you show me in Scripture how it is what we see it to be today? That’s the point.

 

[Nicea325]

The Trinity is established clearly throughout Scripture, what about the papacy?? Can you show me in Scripture how it is what we see it to be today? That’s the point.

Wrong! The doctrine of the Trinity was established by the CHURCH,not the Bible. The Trinity is merely implicit in scripture,not explicit. Care to show me one verse where it explicitly defines the complexity of the Trinitarian doctrine and three distinct persons of the Trinity?

The papacy? The support of the primacy of Peter is much more evident in the NT,then the Trinity. There are 50 NT verses clearly showing Peter’s primacy.

Can you show me clearly throughout Scripture were the canon of the Bible is mentioned?

 

[Candlepower]

None! It is all based on biased views and lack of not knowing history,plain and simple. It never amazes me at the amount of claims and charges so many hold against the CC,yet provide zilch to prove it or support it.

I was conversing with one individual on this topic and I now see that I am being attacked by three people on it. Why do you find it necessary to attempt to completely quell someone like myself who may disagree with you? In the short time I have been here, I have seen this tactic several times. This frightenly resembles bullying.

 

[Nicea325]

I was conversing with one individual on this topic and I now see that I am being attacked by three people on it. Why do you find it necessary to attempt to completely quell someone like myself who may disagree with you? In the short time I have been here, I have seen this tactic several times. This frightenly resembles bullying.

Attacking you? It is not attack,but a mere challenge by those who say otherwise,thus by all means…back it up. Why mention something,if you are unsure if any empirical evidence exists?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Candlepower…

So you arrived here “assuming” your right about this?

Tatian the Syrian (170 A.D.)
“Simon Kephas answered and said, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’ Jesus answered and said unto him, 'Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah: flesh and blood has not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say unto thee also, that you are Kephas, and on this Rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it” (The Diatesseron 23 [A.D. 170]).

Tertullian (220 A.D.):
“Was anything hid from Peter, who was called the Rock, whereon the Church was built; who obtained the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and the power of loosing and of binding in heaven and on earth?” (Tertullian, De Praescript Haeret)

The Apocryphal Letter of St. Clement of Rome to St. James (C. 221 A.D.)
“Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus Himself, with His truthful mouth, named Peter” (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221])

The Clementine Homilies (C. 221)
“[Simon Peter said to Simon Magus in Rome:] For you now stand in direct opposition to me, who am a firm rock, the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]” (Clementine Homilies 17:19 [A.D. 221]).

St. Hippolytus (225 A.D.):
“Peter, the Rock of the Church …” (Hippolytus in S. Theophan, n. 9, Galland, ii. p. 494). “Peter, the Rock of the Faith, whom Christ our Lord called blessed, the teacher of the Church, the first disciple, he who has the Keys of the Kingdom.” (Hippolytus, Ex Fabricio, Op. Hippol. tom. ii. De Fine Mundi et de Antichristo, n. 9).

Origen (230-250 A.D.):
“See what the Lord said to Peter, that great foundation of the Church, and most solid Rock, upon which Christ founded the Church …” (Origen, In Exodus. Hom. v. . 4 tom. ii).

“Look at [Peter], the great foundation of the Church, that most solid of rocks, upon whom Christ built the Church [Matt. 16:18]. And what does our Lord say to him? ‘Oh you of little faith,’ he says, ‘why do you doubt?’” [Matt. 14:31] (Homilies on Exodus 5:4 [A.D. 248]).

“Upon him (Peter), as on the earth, the Church was founded.” (Origen, Ep. ad. Rom. lib. v.c. 10, tom iv.)

“Peter, upon whom is built Christ’s Church, against which the gates of hell will not prevail.” (Origen, T. iv. In Joan. Tom. v.)

St. Cyprian (246 A.D.):
“For first to Peter, upon whom He built the Church, and from whom He appointed and showed that unity should spring …” (Cyprian, Ep. lxxiiii ad Fubaian).

“God is one, and Christ is one, and the Church is one, and the Chair (of Peter) is one, by the Lord’s word, upon a Rock …” (Cyprian, Ep. xl. ad Pleb).

“There is one God and one Christ and but one episcopal chair, originally founded on Peter, by the Lord’s authority. There cannot, therefore, be set up another altar or another priesthood. Whatever any man in his rage or rashness shall appoint, in defiance of the divine institution, must be a spurious, profane and sacrilegious ordinance” (St. Cyprian, The Unity of the Catholic Church)

“Peter, also to whom the Lord commends His sheep to be fed and guarded, on whom He laid the foundation of the Church …” (Cyprian, De Habitu Virg).

St. Ephream the Syrian (350-370 A.D.):
“Simon my follower, I have made you the foundation of the Holy Church. I betimes called you Peter because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for Me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head and fountain from which all My teaching flows.” (Ephraem, Homilies 4:1).

“Peter, who was called Kephas, he who was captured on the sea shore, and who received testimony from the great Shepherd, that ‘Upon this Rock I will build my Church.’” (Ephraem T. iiii. Gr. De Sacred).

"That Rock which He set up that Satan might stumble thereon, Satan, on the other hand, wished to put this Rock in the way of the Lord that He might stumble upon it, when Peter said, ‘Far be it from Thee, Lord.’ [Matt 16:22-23] (Ephraem, Sermo de Transfig. Dom., Sec. IV

There’s you ECFs and “just a few” at that. Now do you have ONE that states “contrary”. Or is YOUR word the final authority?

 

[Candlepower]

Wrong! The doctrine of the Trinity was established by the CHURCH,not the Bible. The Trinity is merely implicit in scripture,not explicit. Care to show me one verse where it explicitly defines the complexity of the Trinitarina doctrine and three distinct persons of the Trinity?

The papacy? The support of the primacy of Peter is much more evident in the NT,then the Trinity. There are 50 NT verses clearly showing Peter’s primacy.

You’re wrong. The Scriptures give a clearly explicit view of who God is.

And, give me those several verses of Scriptures to show the papacy. I’d love to see what you would attempt to cut and paste.

 

[Candlepower]

Attacking you? It is not attack,but a mere challenge by those who say otherwise,thus by all means…back it up. Why mention something,if you are unsure if any empirical evidence exists?

It is by all means an attack and more have now joined the fray. Enough said and proven.

 

[Roy5]

A few brief responses.

** The Bible as a Catholic book? **I think it is quite debatable as to whether the Roman Catholic Church (as such) was in its present form when the canon was completed. As I recall, one position maintained by the Orthodox, Coptics and others is that Rome only gradually became supreme in western Europe, that for several centuries - some set the date as 1051 - there were Bishops of equal rank, etc.

 **Now, if the Holy Spirit protects and guides the Pope I have to wonder why so many Popes were rogues and rascals**, with their mistresses and children, appointing kinfolk to high positions, etc. True, many Popes were saintly men, but others certainly weren't. I know your answer already - Popes can be personally notorious but when they have spoken ex cathedra they cannot make a mistake. Fine, if you can believe that. I recently finished the book *Absolute Monarchs*, a history of the Papacy. I recommend it. It's not anti-pope, just a careful history.

 ** As for Aquinas, a brilliant man - however.** I wrote my undergraduate thesis on him. Still and all, much of what he wrote has been outdated by modern knowledge. And he shared some of the worst views of the medieval church. For example, heretics should be delivered by he church to the civil government to be executed!

  **As for those posters who are inclined to argue that those of us who take issue with Catholicism simply fail to understand Catholicism - some of us know a great deal about Catholicism, which is the most important reason we take issue**.

** But, having said all that, pardon me if you find it offensive and if you can subscribe to Catholicism - fine! **The subject of the thread is “I’m not Catholic because…”? I come from a mixed Catholic/Protestant heritage and, in good conscience, have had to move away from the fundamentalist viewpoint offered by both. Yes, traditional Catholicism is as fundamentalist as much of evangelical Protestantism. They both claim to have the full truth, both take the Bible quite literally, and both bathe in accounts of supernatural miracles, healings, visions, apparitions, etc. I am attracted to mainline Protestantism where people can have different opinions without feeling like ‘heretics’.

  **My faith is firmly planted in God,** and I seek to be a faithful follower of Christ. However, I need a faith that is reasonable and that allows diversity of opinion on many central questions. Since God is unfathomable, way beyond human comprehension, I think we all should feel humble as well as tolerant of different viewpoints.

 **God bless everybody** - of every (and no) creed, of every color, culture and country. What a shame that religion is so often a barrier when it should serve as a bridge.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Candlespower…Wow, you make these broad sweeping claims with Explaination Points as if you knew something NEW. And then get mad when others question your thinking, and provide you with proof your incorrect?

How could you possibly find the Truth assuming you already know it, when its obvious there’s something to be learned?

How about this…You teach US? Show us YOUR TRUTH?

Holiday Blessings

 

[Nicea325]

You’re wrong. The Scriptures give a clearly explicit view of who God is.

And, give me those several verses of Scriptures to show the papacy. I’d love to see what you would attempt to cut and paste.

Really? Then why bother to have an ecumenical council to DEFINE and RATIFY it? You are wrong! Read your history my friend, the CHURCH DEFINED and RATIFIED the doctrine,not the Bible. Really? Then I am curious to know why at the Council of 325 A.D. they simply did not copy and paste the DEFINED doctrine from the Bible?

No you are dead wrong! Show me ONE verse where the Bible explicitly DEFINES the Triniatarian doctrine or explains:

The Father is God-The **first person **of the Trinity

The Son is God- The **second person **of the Trinity

The Holy Spirit is God- The **third person **of the Trinity.

 

[Nicea325]

It is by all means an attack and more have now joined the fray. Enough said and proven.

Hhhmm…and has it occurred to you,perhaps it is you whose doing the attacking? Thanks for rebuking yourself.

 

[GaryTaylor]

And another new websight will appear stating how uncharitable Catholics are at CAF?

 

[Nicea325]

And another new websight will appear stating how uncharitable Catholics are at CAF?

Oh yes…we are so mean. Please!

 

[JustaServant]

And another new websight will appear stating how uncharitable Catholics are at CAF?

Google “Catholic Answers” and “Banned”.