I'm not a Catholic because

  • Thread starter Thread starter PJM
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
=Candlepower;8717171]What I am saying is that I see nothing in Scripture that substaniates what you claim about the pope. I know you keep quoting Scripture, but it doesn’t point to what you are saying without twists. This is truly why I left the Catholic church years ago. That and the fact that the Early Church (which RCs claim to be themselves) didn’t have this pure, absolute and final authority in the Bishop of Rome, purgatory, Marian dogmas and several other ideals that purely come from the pope and not Scripture. AND Infallibility wasn’t even established until much much later. None of it adds up.
***My dear friend in Christ,

I can give evidence of the Hows and Whys of each of these, but the Forum format, by prudent necessiity is too restrictive in size.

Respond to my private message and we can discuss each of these issues.

God Bless you, and THANKS for your post.

Pat***
 
Hope I don’t get flamed for this post but since it’s an open thread, I’ll post.

First, I’m an admitted Cafeteria Catholic. Many of us are but many won’t admit it - I do.

Here are my reasons and comments on the topic of the thread and views on some of the posts I’ve read. I’m not claiming to be right or wrong so please do not try to convince me in either direction.

**Tribal ** - Was born and raised Catholic so here I am as such.

**Pope **- I don’t for a minute believe he’s protected by the Holy Spirit any more or less than any of us. I don’t for a minute think he’s infallible. To think so is not within my belief - period.

Only One True Church - I think this is nonsense. I’m not claiming to be a scholar or even well read on any one faith but I will say that I don’t for one minute think Catholics have the only true faith. I’ll leave it at that.

There are many teachings I do admire about the Catholic Church but then again, I can also find teachings within other faiths (i.e. Lutheran & Jewish) that I find valid as well.

Enough said, just another post within a long thread.
 
Oh yes…we are so mean. Please!
Collectively, no, I dont think that’s the case. Many posters on here that Ive engaged with have been polite, patient, charitable and generally very nice in their exchanges.

But there is no denying the fact there are certain people here, with catholic in their header, who feel just because they are catholics, on a catholic board, they can be as down right rude and insulting as they like to non catholics, particularly those who stand up and say they are atheists.

Thankfully they are far from the majority, and thankfully there is an ignore feature 😛

Sarah x 🙂
 
Collectively, no, I dont think that’s the case. Many posters on here that Ive engaged with have been polite, patient, charitable and generally very nice in their exchanges.

But there is no denying the fact there are certain people here, with catholic in their header, who feel just because they are catholics, on a catholic board, they can be as down right rude and insulting as they like to non catholics, particularly those who stand up and say they are atheists.

Thankfully they are far from the majority, and thankfully there is an ignore feature 😛

Sarah x 🙂
What blows my mind away is how one bothers to enter a Catholic site,especially if he or she dislikes the church? Then why enter?
 
=dontknow;8717477]Hope I don’t get flamed for this post but since it’s an open thread, I’ll post.
First, I’m an admitted Cafeteria Catholic. Many of us are but many won’t admit it - I do.
Here are my reasons and comments on the topic of the thread and views on some of the posts I’ve read. I’m not claiming to be right or wrong so please do not try to convince me in either direction.
**Tribal ** - Was born and raised Catholic so here I am as such.
**Pope **- I don’t for a minute believe he’s protected by the Holy Spirit any more or less than any of us. I don’t for a minute think he’s infallible. To think so is not within my belief - period.
Only One True Church - I think this is nonsense. I’m not claiming to be a scholar or even well read on any one faith but I will say that I don’t for one minute think Catholics have the only true faith. I’ll leave it at that.
There are many teachings I do admire about the Catholic Church but then again, I can also find teachings within other faiths (i.e. Lutheran & Jewish) that I find valid as well.
Enough said, just another post within a long thread.
My dear friend in Christ,

Jesus allows [BUT DOES NOT PERMIT] any faith beliefs other than His own. Salvation relies on this single fact. Pray about it:)

God Bless you, and THANK you for your post.
Pat:thumbsup:
 
Pope - I don’t for a minute believe he’s protected by the Holy Spirit any more or less than any of us. I don’t for a minute think he’s infallible. To think so is not within my belief - period.
What we have here is a classic case of “I am the judge of divine revelation.” or “God is my student and I am the Teacher.” Well unfortunately your opinion has no bearing on doctrinal Truth…period! No different than those who deny the existence of Hell…makes no difference to God’s Truth.
Only One True Church - I think this is nonsense. I’m not claiming to be a scholar or even well read on any one faith but I will say that I don’t for one minute think Catholics have the only true faith. I’ll leave it at that.
Geeee…I wonder if Jesus thinks it is nonsense he founded only ONE universal Church?
 
=Nicea325;8717589]What we have here is a classic case of “I am the judge of divine revelation.” or “God is my student and I am the Teacher.” Well unfortunately your opinion has no bearing on doctrinal Truth…period! No different than those who deny the existence of Hell…makes no difference to God’s Truth.
Geeee…I wonder if Jesus thinks it is nonsense he founded only ONE universal Church?
Nicea my friend, wee-bit more charity and patient endurence would be nice:D

As for our skeptic;

If my friend you’re a bible reader, you may have noticed that not even ONE TIME does God ever, EVER, permit more than Just one set of faith beliefs. :rolleyes: 👍

And as a FYI: Term .Church" originates from Christ Himself. Mt. 16: and the ONLY church that existed when the Bible was fully written is today’s Catholic Church. Imagine that:)

God Bless ,
Pat
 
A few brief responses.

** The Bible as a Catholic book? **I think it is quite debatable as to whether the Roman Catholic Church (as such) was in its present form when the canon was completed. As I recall, one position maintained by the Orthodox, Coptics and others is that Rome only gradually became supreme in western Europe, that for several centuries - some set the date as 1051 - there were Bishops of equal rank, etc.
No Catholic would honestly contend that it was exactly in its present form. That said, the early Church did most closely resemble the Catholic Church. It was organized into a hierarchy of bishops, priests, and deacons. It was sacramental - specifically, it was eucharistic. There were bishops of both east and west. The early dispute that led to the East/West schism was not over the primacy of Peter’s See, but over the nature of that primacy - whether it was simply a primacy of honor, or one of authority. That being said, the early councils that compiled the list of Scripture seem to be quite Catholic indeed.
40.png
Roy5:
Code:
 **Now, if the Holy Spirit protects and guides the Pope I have to wonder why so many Popes were rogues and rascals**, with their mistresses and children, appointing kinfolk to high positions, etc. True, many Popes were saintly men, but others certainly weren't. I know your answer already - Popes can be personally notorious but when they have spoken ex cathedra they cannot make a mistake. Fine, if you can believe that. I recently finished the book *Absolute Monarchs*, a history of the Papacy. I recommend it. It's not anti-pope, just a careful history.
Because the charism of infallibility is not there to protect the souls of the popes, but the integrity of the Church. What is incredible to fathom is how the office has remained intact for nearly two millenia, despite the rogues and rascals, which were indeed far outnumbered by the saintly men who took on the resposibility of the See of Peter. Nearly as amazing is the fact that the rascal popes were kept from teaching error - probably because they were far to busy sinning to devote much time to higher matters. Perhaps that was the HS, allowing such leaders to be given over to their sinning in a manner that protected the Church from error. In any event, it’s no reason to doubt the doctrine of infallibility.
40.png
Roy5:
Code:
 ** As for Aquinas, a brilliant man - however.** I wrote my undergraduate thesis on him. Still and all, much of what he wrote has been outdated by modern knowledge. And he shared some of the worst views of the medieval church. For example, heretics should be delivered by he church to the civil government to be executed!
I did not know a thesis was required for an undergraduate degree? Nevertheless, he was certainly educated and reasonable and Catholic.
40.png
Roy5:
Code:
  **As for those posters who are inclined to argue that those of us who take issue with Catholicism simply fail to understand Catholicism - some of us know a great deal about Catholicism, which is the most important reason we take issue**.
Perhaps? I don’t pretend to know what non-Catholics have or have not studied about the Catholic faith. What I do know is that reason helped me to find my way back into the Church.

Roy5 said:
…traditional Catholicism is as fundamentalist as much of evangelical Protestantism…

I would disagree. Fundamentalism was a reaction to the fact that so many mainline protestant churches hold differing views on doctrinal matters; the fundamentalism attempts to overcome the differences by focusing instead on the “fundamental” values that all christian religions share. On the other hand, the Catholic Church attempts to teach consistently from the original deposit of faith that comes from the Apostles. The Catholic Church has not attempted to limit its teaching to “just the fundamentals.” What both communities hold in common is the acknowledgement that there is one truth. Where they differ is in how - and to what extent - that truth has been revealed. But I sense your point is merely that both fundamentalism and Catholicism recognize there are certain doctrinal issues that one cannot be flexible about.
40.png
Roy5:
Code:
  **My faith is firmly planted in God,** and I seek to be a faithful follower of Christ. However, I need a faith that is reasonable and that allows diversity of opinion on many central questions.
“diversity of opinion on central questions” requires the tolerance of error. What if there was a church that allowed a diversity of opinion on the “central question” of whether or not Christ was divine? Is diversity on this issue acceptable? What about the triune nature of God? Can one be a follower of God and ignore the teaching on these issues? Or is it proper to set boundaries on what must be accepted?
40.png
Roy5:
God bless everybody - of every (and no) creed, of every color, culture and country. What a shame that religion is so often a barrier when it should serve as a bridge.
I don’t think the barrier is “religion” as much as it is the people that are members of that religion.

Peace,
Robert
 
Why are you not a Catholic? 🤷
Thanks! In regards to other posts, I actually thought most of the responses in here were from Catholics. I could not understand all the hate and sarcasm and cynicism. Now I see it’s because those who do not believe are not content with their own revelation but come here to insult those who do.

God Bless you and everyone here.
 
What blows my mind away is how one bothers to enter a Catholic site,especially if he or she dislikes the church? Then why enter?
I have no idea. You’ll have to ask someone who dislikes the catholic church.

Sarah x 🙂
 
=couponfit;8719784]Thanks! In regards to other posts, I actually thought most of the responses in here were from Catholics. I could not understand all the hate and sarcasm and cynicism. Now I see it’s because those who do not believe are not content with their own revelation but come here to insult those who do.
God Bless you and everyone here.
As the God BLESSED OP of this string; I have I am sure responed to a 100 or more most. I have not found what you have.

Many are questioning and truly searching as led by the Holy Spirit. I an DEEPLY grateful to have been able to sare the Why’s and Hows of our Catholic Faith with so many GREAT folks1:)

The occasional cincic, and a few isolated critics are just to keep us focused and an opportunity to prove and demonistrate our love for each other and our God:thumbsup:

Merry Christmas ALL!

Pat
 
Why are you not a Catholic? 🤷
I grew up a very devout Roman Catholic. From before my identifying that I “had” a faith, continuing through my childhood, and into my adult years I have had what might be easily labeled “spiritual” experiences under a number of different circumstances. I read the Lives of the Saints and fully, willingly and eagerly participated in all faith related activities. Except catechism in that old, drafty, noisy, dusty, and overcrowded parish hall, lol. But I learned well and was at the top of my class in RC theology by high school. I even considered becoming a priest. But then I was shown something that not only shook my faith as it was taught me, but put my whole understanding of what it means to be human on entirely different grounds. Though I had a “solid” knowledge, it was book learning and habit, as I discovered, compared to the new reality that forced itself unbidden and suddenly on me.

I went to various clerics whom I had befriended through my life, and to books. No one or nothing came close to a rational reasonable and practical exegesis of what had happened to me. Prayers had no answer. I was in a dessert of unknowing. After exhausting what I could find that the Church had to offer, I started to turn to Eastern philosophical ideas. Those were somewhat satisfying, but still seemed incomplete.

Then I attended a lecture at the Graduate Theological Union at UCB. I was astonished. The speaker answered, without my verbal questioning, many questions that had been gnawing at my heart. His experience with and explication of the state I had entered at the point of my greatest insight was astounding. I remained associated with this man for nearly thirty years. He never varied from his statements and talked his walk exactly. men and women, some of whom you have heard of, I have no doubt, came to see him. From Jesuits to Jews, from swamis to seers, he answered all their questions from an unwavering Standpoint. Over time he introduced me to many authors from recent times to ages past who were lovers of God and of beauty and of Truth, as well as living individuals who were at the top echelons of their religions, sciences, disciplines and arts.

I came to know that there has always been a Truth before the formation of any particular religion, a Truth which Jesus spoke and was crucified for back then, and again even to this day by misunderstanding. This is evident from reading His words in a new Light, a Light of Love so immense that it is absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind.

And yet that mind is wherefrom most religion and atheism stems. It has no depth of understanding as an institution, only dogmas and formuae that cover a deep and vibrant truth, even in the Church. And while hat Truth is there, it is cloaked, and isn’t and wasn’t available to me when I needed it in the way that it was originally meant, by every measure that I am able to muster, especially using what I was given in my education in the Church.

So that is why I am no longer a practicing Catholic, though I have great gratitude for what the Church gave me and the education I received through its schools, and the wonderful,even saintly people I met and continue to meet as its members.

I tell you this story because you asked.
 
=Whadyamean;8731906]I grew up a very devout Roman Catholic. From before my identifying that I “had” a faith, continuing through my childhood, and into my adult years I have had what might be easily labeled “spiritual” experiences under a number of different circumstances. I read the Lives of the Saints and fully, willingly and eagerly participated in all faith related activities. Except catechism in that old, drafty, noisy, dusty, and overcrowded parish hall, lol. But I learned well and was at the top of my class in RC theology by high school. I even considered becoming a priest. But then I was shown something that not only shook my faith as it was taught me, but put my whole understanding of what it means to be human on entirely different grounds. Though I had a “solid” knowledge, it was book learning and habit, as I discovered, compared to the new reality that forced itself unbidden and suddenly on me.
I went to various clerics whom I had befriended through my life, and to books. No one or nothing came close to a rational reasonable and practical exegesis of what had happened to me. Prayers had no answer. I was in a dessert of unknowing. After exhausting what I could find that the Church had to offer, I started to turn to Eastern philosophical ideas. Those were somewhat satisfying, but still seemed incomplete.
Then I attended a lecture at the Graduate Theological Union at UCB. I was astonished. The speaker answered, without my verbal questioning, many questions that had been gnawing at my heart. His experience with and explication of the state I had entered at the point of my greatest insight was astounding. I remained associated with this man for nearly thirty years. He never varied from his statements and talked his walk exactly. men and women, some of whom you have heard of, I have no doubt, came to see him. From Jesuits to Jews, from swamis to seers, he answered all their questions from an unwavering Standpoint. Over time he introduced me to many authors from recent times to ages past who were lovers of God and of beauty and of Truth, as well as living individuals who were at the top echelons of their religions, sciences, disciplines and arts.
I came to know that there has always been a Truth before the formation of any particular religion, a Truth which Jesus spoke and was crucified for back then, and again even to this day by misunderstanding. This is evident from reading His words in a new Light, a Light of Love so immense that it is absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind.
And yet that mind is wherefrom most religion and atheism stems. It has no depth of understanding as an institution, only dogmas and formuae that cover a deep and vibrant truth, even in the Church. And while hat Truth is there, it is cloaked, and isn’t and wasn’t available to me when I needed it in the way that it was originally meant, by every measure that I am able to muster, especially using what I was given in my education in the Church.
So that is why I am no longer a practicing Catholic, though I have great gratitude for what the Church gave me and the education I received through its schools, and the wonderful,even saintly people I met and continue to meet as its members.
I tell you this story because you asked.
My friend,

Never ever; not even once in scripture or Sacred Tradition has God HIMSELF ever permitted or tollerated any set of “faith beliefs other than His own.” WHY? Because truth is singular! We catholics hols the paten on it on all matters of Faith bekiefs and Morals.

While you may have been given head knowledge; you MISSSED the Critical truth. Faith is NOT about what you like or dislike; or my preferences… It is about WHAT God commands. Heaven and hell are real. There are MANY way’s to choose HEll; BUT ONLY GODS WAY TO CHOOSE SALVATION. GOD LET’S US CHOOSE.:rolleyes:

Thank you for your post. Merry Christmas,

Pat 🙂
I’ll pray for you.
 
Thanks for sharing your story, Whadyamean. You are indeed a seeker, and I am certain God smiles on that.

Now, if I may address some of your points.
But then I was shown something that not only shook my faith as it was taught me, but put my whole understanding of what it means to be human on entirely different grounds.
What was it that you were shown???
Over time he introduced me to many authors from recent times to ages past who were lovers of God and of beauty and of Truth, as well as living individuals who were at the top echelons of their religions, sciences, disciplines and arts
Would you share some of these authors?
I came to know that there has always been a Truth before the formation of any particular religion, a Truth which Jesus spoke and was crucified for back then, and again even to this day by misunderstanding
This is quite consonant with Catholic teaching, Whatdya.
And yet that mind is wherefrom most religion and atheism stems.
Yes, it is a gift that we can attempt to apprehend God with our mind.
It has no depth of understanding as an institution, only dogmas and formuae that cover a deep and vibrant truth, even in the Church.
Am I correct in presuming that you are painting a dichotomy between dogmas/formulae and “deep and vibrant truth”?
 
I grew up a very devout Roman Catholic. From before my identifying that I “had” a faith, continuing through my childhood, and into my adult years I have had what might be easily labeled “spiritual” experiences under a number of different circumstances. I read the Lives of the Saints and fully, willingly and eagerly participated in all faith related activities. Except catechism in that old, drafty, noisy, dusty, and overcrowded parish hall, lol. But I learned well and was at the top of my class in RC theology by high school. I even considered becoming a priest. But then I was shown something that not only shook my faith as it was taught me, but put my whole understanding of what it means to be human on entirely different grounds. Though I had a “solid” knowledge, it was book learning and habit, as I discovered, compared to the new reality that forced itself unbidden and suddenly on me.

I went to various clerics whom I had befriended through my life, and to books. No one or nothing came close to a rational reasonable and practical exegesis of what had happened to me. Prayers had no answer. I was in a dessert of unknowing. After exhausting what I could find that the Church had to offer, I started to turn to Eastern philosophical ideas. Those were somewhat satisfying, but still seemed incomplete.

Then I attended a lecture at the Graduate Theological Union at UCB. I was astonished. The speaker answered, without my verbal questioning, many questions that had been gnawing at my heart. His experience with and explication of the state I had entered at the point of my greatest insight was astounding. I remained associated with this man for nearly thirty years. He never varied from his statements and talked his walk exactly. men and women, some of whom you have heard of, I have no doubt, came to see him. From Jesuits to Jews, from swamis to seers, he answered all their questions from an unwavering Standpoint. Over time he introduced me to many authors from recent times to ages past who were lovers of God and of beauty and of Truth, as well as living individuals who were at the top echelons of their religions, sciences, disciplines and arts.

I came to know that there has always been a Truth before the formation of any particular religion, a Truth which Jesus spoke and was crucified for back then, and again even to this day by misunderstanding. This is evident from reading His words in a new Light, a Light of Love so immense that it is absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind.

And yet that mind is wherefrom most religion and atheism stems. It has no depth of understanding as an institution, only dogmas and formuae that cover a deep and vibrant truth, even in the Church. And while hat Truth is there, it is cloaked, and isn’t and wasn’t available to me when I needed it in the way that it was originally meant, by every measure that I am able to muster, especially using what I was given in my education in the Church.

So that is why I am no longer a practicing Catholic, though I have great gratitude for what the Church gave me and the education I received through its schools, and the wonderful,even saintly people I met and continue to meet as its members.

I tell you this story because you asked.
What were you shown?:confused:
 
Then I attended a lecture at the Graduate Theological Union at UCB. I was astonished. The speaker answered, without my verbal questioning, many questions that had been gnawing at my heart. His experience with and explication of the state I had entered at the point of my greatest insight was astounding. I remained associated with this man for nearly thirty years. He never varied from his statements and talked his walk exactly. men and women, some of whom you have heard of, I have no doubt, came to see him. From Jesuits to Jews, from swamis to seers, he answered all their questions from an unwavering Standpoint. Over time he introduced me to many authors from recent times to ages past who were lovers of God and of beauty and of Truth, as well as living individuals who were at the top echelons of their religions, sciences, disciplines and arts.
Hi Whadyamean,

Would you tell us who this man is? I’m wondering if I’ve run across him.

Xuan
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top