I'm not a Catholic because

[theidler]

I don’t know if his experience is the same as mine, but I’ve heard several Catholics from my school tell me that they consider themselves Catholic before they do Christian. What they meant is that they are more concerned with following the Church than following Christ, and though I know the point of the Church is to carry forth Christ’s teachings, the problem was that they weren’t paying any thought to that. They were doing what the Church told them for the sake of the Church with no mindfulness to Christ. It was empty ritual for them, but they were alright with that.

Some friends and I started asking them tough questions, though, and with some rebuking they came to see that their motivation was in the wrong place. We weren’t looking to convert them to a different form of Christianity, so the fact that they’re actually firm in their faith now says that we accomplished something good.

I’m not Catholic because I cannot accept some very specific ideas. I know you don’t worship Mary or pray to the saints in place of God, I know that the Priest is supposed to represent God in Confession, and I generally know enough about church history and doctrine to know what the Church actually teaches. But with some of them, I see Roman influence, and I see so many people fall into empty ritualism or misplaced devotion, and I can’t join in. I know my weaknesses, and I’m the kind of person that could very easily allow it all to just become empty ritual.

On the other side, my faith is what it is because I have a community of believers around me that hold me accountable and rebuke me for any missteps I take. They encourage me to read the Bible (and they’ve succeeded in convincing me to make it daily), we worship together and raise our voices (hymns, contemporary stuff, anything goes, really), pray together, and do life together. The church itself is small, fairly traditional, and very focused on active faith. There are very few lukewarm Christians there. It’s a Wesleyan Methodist church, so the liturgy isn’t particularly liberal.

I appreciate the Catholic Church. Many of my close friends are Catholic. I’ve learned about it for the past year through research and reading. But with my vulnerabilities and spiritual weaknesses, it’s best for me to stay in the solid crowd that I’m already in.

You know, that’s a pretty solid answer friend. I like your honesty.
And yes, I see some falling into empty ritualism too, though I try my hardest not to judge whether they are in fact going through the motions, or whether it just appears that way. Regardless, one must always be wary of any kind of spiritual indifference, be it through ritualistic ruts, or pure laziness when it comes to prayer, or the like.

 

[chuskcrop]

i don’t know what the latest is with this thread but I wanted to add that the word “trinity” is not in the bible. AND NEITHER is the sinner’s prayer.

 

[Whadyamean]

If you should explain what it is you might want me to comprehend with honesty and courage the meaning of Mark 4:31-34…then if I were to join you I would have to rely on the interprative hands of humans like you. You say that guidance in the Church faulters because of this. How then do we intepret what you say to be true, relevant, and concerning the rescue by that man from the desert of doubt and drought, that man was human as well.

No, actually I must invite you to at least forward an interpretation by your own devices of this passage. This is not a “gimme” situation. And I wish in fact neither your interpretation nor your belief. Especially not your belief. And really, I do not need to be joined, but those who have independently come to a realization about this, whether through this particular symbol or not, we are already joined in a way that is rather permanent as a feature of the discovery. Again, this is not about challenging or changing your or anyone’s faith as it stands. It is clearly functioning for you in an excellent and exemplary way. Who would wish to change that, save yourself if you see in a new way? I cannot do that for you by argument and perhaps not even by example. That is not my job nor the scope of my explications. It is about showing those who might need it that there is a crack in the world. Perhaps you have seen the album cover of an old collectible LP where a man is crawling through a crack from Earth into the heavenly spheres? It is kind of like that. But Real.

 

[PRmerger]

i don’t know what the latest is with this thread but I wanted to add that the word “trinity” is not in the bible. AND NEITHER is the sinner’s prayer.

Yep. And neither is the Altar Call. (Which is an ironic name for this ritual, as there is no altar, as there is no sacrifice at non-Catholic churches that have Altar Calls.)

 

[PRmerger]

Again, this is not about challenging or changing your or anyone’s faith as it stands. It is clearly functioning for you in an excellent and exemplary way. Who would wish to change that, save yourself if you see in a new way?

This is a peculiar argument.

We as Catholics want to believe something because it’s True, not because it helps us “function” in an “excellent and exemplary way”.

An adult who believes in, say, Santa Claus, because it makes her good and happy to believe that Santa Claus exists, would be looked upon as, well, cuckoo.

Again, we believe in something because it’s True, not because it makes us “exemplary.”

It’s like the folktale, “The Emperor’s New Clothes”. Someone may be happy and “exemplary” parading around butt naked, but he’s really just a cuckoo person if he’s not steeped in reality.

 

[CopticChristian]

No, actually I must invite you to at least forward an interpretation by your own devices of this passage. This is not a “gimme” situation. And I wish in fact neither your interpretation nor your belief. Especially not your belief. And really, I do not need to be joined, but those who have independently come to a realization about this, whether through this particular symbol or not, we are already joined in a way that is rather permanent as a feature of the discovery. Again, this is not about challenging or changing your or anyone’s faith as it stands. It is clearly functioning for you in an excellent and exemplary way. Who would wish to change that, save yourself if you see in a new way? I cannot do that for you by argument and perhaps not even by example. That is not my job nor the scope of my explications. It is about showing those who might need it that there is a crack in the world. Perhaps you have seen the album cover of an old collectible LP where a man is crawling through a crack from Earth into the heavenly spheres? It is kind of like that. But Real.

No, well yes, then of course if you ask me to forward an intepretation then devices are sometimes necessary or they or not as you are familiar with this paradigm. No gimme situations will suffice and in fact beliefs that are born out of an intepretation may or may not be joined independently or stand alone if you know what I mean. Features are relevant only as discovered or hidden and in that regard challenge is necessary for change unless change comes before the challenge in which case the change is an exemplary way. Argument never satisfies and examples can and never will be perfect but what is as you know in the search for the ethereal bottles will not do. Cracks exist, patching must be done and as far as albums are concerned the dark side of the moon may be like that. Yes of course.

 

[Whadyamean]

No, well yes, then of course if you ask me to forward an intepretation then devices are sometimes necessary or they or not as you are familiar with this paradigm. No gimme situations will suffice and in fact beliefs that are born out of an intepretation may or may not be joined independently or stand alone if you know what I mean. Features are relevant only as discovered or hidden and in that regard challenge is necessary for change unless change comes before the challenge in which case the change is an exemplary way. Argument never satisfies and examples can and never will be perfect but what is as you know in the search for the ethereal bottles will not do. Cracks exist, patching must be done and as far as albums are concerned the dark side of the moon may be like that. Yes of course.

Wow. Amazing exegesis!

 

[Carlan]

Originally Posted by Carlan
We do not lean on our own or another humans understanding…we seek the enlightenment of the one supreme being, God.
Peace, Carlan

Oh, I totally agree. A Blessed Christmas to you and yours!

Whadyamean,what else can be said to you other than, BEWARE! slickness is a clever tool of the evil one.Don’t continue to allow him to fool you,. Peace, Carlan

 

[PRmerger]

No, well yes, then of course if you ask me to forward an intepretation then devices are sometimes necessary or they or not as you are familiar with this paradigm. No gimme situations will suffice and in fact beliefs that are born out of an intepretation may or may not be joined independently or stand alone if you know what I mean. Features are relevant only as discovered or hidden and in that regard challenge is necessary for change unless change comes before the challenge in which case the change is an exemplary way. Argument never satisfies and examples can and never will be perfect but what is as you know in the search for the ethereal bottles will not do. Cracks exist, patching must be done and as far as albums are concerned the dark side of the moon may be like that. Yes of course.

 

[Whadyamean]

Whadyamean,what else can be said to you other than, BEWARE! slickness is a clever tool of the evil one.Don’t continue to allow him to fool you,. Peace, Carlan

Is it not the devil who would make you mistake a gift for a curse due to your own inexperience? Have you not been to school? When I was in kindergarten, at least I knew that there was a sixth grade. Eventually I understood that there was college and university, and graduate studies. Even independent research. That kind of thing, other than the vague attempts at promoting “Sainthood” and avoiding sin, was never given me as a possibility even when I was acing theology courses in high school. Now I know better, and you would fault me for encouraging others to keep going by adding a dimension because they might not see the wonders of God ahead???

 

[Carlan]

Is it not the devil who would make you mistake a gift for a curse due to your own inexperience? Have you not been to school? When I was in kindergarten, at least I knew that there was a sixth grade. Eventually I understood that there was college and university, and graduate studies. Even independent research. That kind of thing, other than the vague attempts at promoting “Sainthood” and avoiding sin, was never given me as a possibility even when I was acing theology courses in high school. Now I know better, and you would fault me for encouraging others to keep going by adding a dimension because they might not see the wonders of God ahead???

Face it, you are losing in this debate, no need to resort to insults it will not prove anything.
Pride is so ugly, a good dose of humility, a good cure for it.
Peace,Carlan
Peace, Carlan

 

[CopticChristian]

Is it not the devil who would make you mistake a gift for a curse due to your own inexperience? Have you not been to school? When I was in kindergarten, at least I knew that there was a sixth grade. Eventually I understood that there was college and university, and graduate studies. Even independent research. That kind of thing, other than the vague attempts at promoting “Sainthood” and avoiding sin, was never given me as a possibility even when I was acing theology courses in high school. Now I know better, and you would fault me for encouraging others to keep going by adding a dimension because they might not see the wonders of God ahead???

Satan as you know does not make or cause gifts or curses offered and accepted as you know though offered in the end the acceptance can or should be the dilema faced when presented this situation for some but not most. This is true particularly when considering that in that regard the specialty of the the gift as most percieve could or could not be a curse but that is another story and too difficult to comprehend so I shall cut that short. Experience, empiricism, gnosis…did I say gnosis…special knowledge supersedes the intellect. Kindergarten is a special place recalling the reading circles, kick ball, teather ball but of course balls are spheres and those spheres are perfect and never ending as infinity is the goal which of course is assessed through studies not realizing that as the ball is kicked it will keep bouncing into classes in High School or College depending on the ball. Independent research and Aces, 4 of a kind, two pair, full house, yes the house is what it is all about for no Saint avoiding sin lives in a hut today, perhaps yesterday but that is another story. Yes knowing better, best, gnosis what else can this be when considering the wonders, I favor Stevie…very superstitious writing on the wall, 7 years of bad luck…now the dimensions of course that would be difficut to decide on however when considering that there are choices that would be the 5th dimension…this is the dawning of the age of aquarius…let the sunshine in…for who could fault you. Did you now that WoW spelled backwards is still WoW?

 

[PRmerger]

Satan as you know does not make or cause gifts or curses offered and accepted as you know though offered in the end the acceptance can or should be the dilema faced when presented this situation for some but not most. This is true particularly when considering that in that regard the specialty of the the gift as most percieve could or could not be a curse but that is another story and too difficult to comprehend so I shall cut that short. Experience, empiricism, gnosis…did I say gnosis…special knowledge supersedes the intellect. Kindergarten is a special place recalling the reading circles, kick ball, teather ball but of course balls are spheres and those spheres are perfect and never ending as infinity is the goal which of course is assessed through studies not realizing that as the ball is kicked it will keep bouncing into classes in High School or College depending on the ball. Independent research and Aces, 4 of a kind, two pair, full house, yes the house is what it is all about for no Saint avoiding sin lives in a hut today, perhaps yesterday but that is another story. Yes knowing better, best, gnosis what else can this be when considering the wonders, I favor Stevie…very superstitious writing on the wall, 7 years of bad luck…now the dimensions of course that would be difficut to decide on however when considering that there are choices that would be the 5th dimension…this is the dawning of the age of aquarius…let the sunshine in…for who could fault you. Did you now that WoW spelled backwards is still WoW?

That actually made me laugh out loud, Coptic.

 

[CopticChristian]

That actually made me laugh out loud, Coptic.

Stand by.

 

[Whadyamean]

Satan as you know does not make or cause gifts or curses offered and accepted as you know though offered in the end the acceptance can or should be the dilema faced when presented this situation for some but not most. This is true particularly when considering that in that regard the specialty of the the gift as most percieve could or could not be a curse but that is another story and too difficult to comprehend so I shall cut that short. Experience, empiricism, gnosis…did I say gnosis…special knowledge supersedes the intellect. Kindergarten is a special place recalling the reading circles, kick ball, teather ball but of course balls are spheres and those spheres are perfect and never ending as infinity is the goal which of course is assessed through studies not realizing that as the ball is kicked it will keep bouncing into classes in High School or College depending on the ball. Independent research and Aces, 4 of a kind, two pair, full house, yes the house is what it is all about for no Saint avoiding sin lives in a hut today, perhaps yesterday but that is another story. Yes knowing better, best, gnosis what else can this be when considering the wonders, I favor Stevie…very superstitious writing on the wall, 7 years of bad luck…now the dimensions of course that would be difficut to decide on however when considering that there are choices that would be the 5th dimension…this is the dawning of the age of aquarius…let the sunshine in…for who could fault you. Did you now that WoW spelled backwards is still WoW?

Nice ego defense, Coptic. Of course you are doing the “na-na-na-na-na-I-can’t-hear-you-na na-na!” thing, but who can blame you. I will leave you with this from Salvador Minuchin: “How did people respond to our (research) findings? By defending their own paradigms. In response to new knowledge, there is always the question of how to maintain oneself doing the things one was trained to do.”

 

[Carlan]

Whadyaknow. remember Paul’s awakening?
Paul thought he knew it all, also, before he was knocked off his high horse.
Peace, Carlan

 

[Whadyamean]

Whadyaknow. remember Paul’s awakening?
Paul thought he knew it all, also, before he was knocked off his high horse.
Peace, Carlan

Yes, but are you placing me before or after? I assure you I know the horse I am riding after I got back on. It is one of a vastly different color.

 

[Carlan]

Yes, but are you placing me before or after? I assure you I know the horse I am riding after I got back on. It is one of a vastly different color.

OOOH MY GOODNESS!!! The blazing color of fire then darkness, Black .eek:
Peace, Carlan

 

[Whadyamean]

OOOH MY GOODNESS!!! The blazing color of fire then darkness, Black .eek:
Peace, Carlan

 

[Carlan]

Gosh Whady, I’m sorry for that uncharitable interpretation. It really isn’t like me to give up on dissenters , they are actually pet subjects on my prayer list,I trust God for them no matter if it takes till purgatory with some mixed up believing.
Peace, Carlan