I'm sick of the rabid Islamophobia on these boards...

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Oh but your wrong… you totally misunderstand what the quran is saying on these :rolleyes:
im betting my last bottom dollar this will be the answer you will get!
That’s right, Dolph, they actually mean: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you".

Vickie 😃
 
… I do not defend Islam. I defend Muslims of good will as fellow human beings, as fellow children of God…
Good for you. Very kind and peaceful. 👍

But how do feel about Muslims being a witness to Islam and Muhammed? 🤷
 
I defend Catholicism all the time.

I do not defend Islam. I defend Muslims of good will as fellow human beings, as fellow children of God.

I prefer to follow Saint Francis and preach to the Muslim with my love and not with self-satisfied, hypocritical preaching.

I know lots of Muslims who do not want me or any non-Muslim dead.

Please do not pierce the heart of the Theotokos with your hatefulness, even if Muslims have hurt you personally.
O.K. Go to Saudi Arabia, or Afghanistan, or any other Muslim country and preach to the Muslim with your love and see how far that will get you.👍 I’ll pray to the Holy Theotokos that she would intercede on your behalf, when your head is chopped off, that you are strengthened in our Lord to be a martyr. You just do not know the reality of the situation. THEY WANT ALL CHRISTIANS AND JEWS DEAD.
 
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nonsumd:
The way you talk about Muslims not being satisfied with less than converting the whole world, it seems to me that you would see extermination of all Muslims as the only solution.
I’m glad you brought this up.

Funnily enough this is what the Muslims themselves say.

memritv.org/clip/en/1520.htm

Sheik Muhammad Salih Al-Munajjid: This is a nation of monotheism, and **this is the Islam that Allah wants to spread throughout the world, and to rule the land it its entirety. Allah wants this. He sent down the Koran and the hadith for that purpose. **

They keep telling you that, but will you listen? No? Why not?

Islam is the only theology in the entire world that specifically calls for the oppression of Christians in its holiest scripture, the Quran.
 
How did you decide that there are “millions of Radical” muslims?
By the populations voting Hamas and the Muslim brotherhood into power.

Would anyone care to give me peaceful Mulims justifications for doing this?
 
How did you decide that there are “millions of Radical” muslims?
There are about one billion muslims in the world, if only 10% are radical islamists, that would be 100,000,000 who want to kill Christians and Jews.
 
Just a quick reality check here. Everything God did for the Jews, he did in front of multitudes of witnesses. The Messiah was prophesied long before his appearence, when he came, it was before multitudes of wittnesses. the account of Gabriel was seen only by Muhammud, no other wittnesses. Why? Satan can quote scripture, which is the case in the Quran. Satan has tried to pad out his gospel of lies and hatred with enough “seemingly” legitimate fluff so as to fool those who claim it is a religion of God.

What is the point of Islam? God did not abandon the Jews, he sent the Messiah. Why would God scrap the plan he had in the works for thousands of years, a plan for the salvation of ALL of Humanity. Why was Muhammud not prophesied to the ancient Isreralites?

Islam is our enemy, when faced with this enemy, we must sell our cloaks and buy swords. If we try to reason with them they will only see it as a sign of weakness and will bloat there egos with the need for more blood for Allah. Islam would bury the Gospel and eliminate all knowledge of Christ. We would never do that to them. Even if it came to a world war with Islam. When it was over, the right to worship Allah would be protected in America. And if the existance of Islam were threatened, America would come to it’s rescue. If anyonse says that Islam would do that for us, well I would have to question wether that person has lost rational thought process.
 
Americans are so comunally and personally invested in a righteous self-image that they cannot imagine how many non-Americans can view them as oppressors and aggressors
Quite right. We need to stay completely out of those countries where we are hated.

So the next time Indonesia has a typhoon, or Somalia has a famine, or Pakistan has an earthquake, or Bangladesh has a flood, instead of rushing in there with US taxpayer dollars to help them out, we need to tell them, “We’re sorry, but we’re self-righteous oppressors and aggressors, so you really don’t want our help. Have you tried calling Saudi Arabia? We’re sure they’d be delighted to send you all the aid you need. Have a nice day now. Good-bye.”
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nonsumd:
So if a Muslim goes to fight atheistic communism, Islam is a violent religion, but if a Christian goes to fight atheistic communism, Christianity is not a violent religion?
The reality is, if a Syrian, or an Egyptian, or a Libyan, or a Yemeni goes to fight atheistic Communism, he goes primarily as a Muslim, to fight the enemies of Islam. If an American goes to fight atheistic Communism, he goes primarily as an American, to fight the enemies of the United States. His Christianity might play a role, but it’s not the major one.
 
Quite right. We need to stay completely out of those countries where we are hated.

So the next time Indonesia has a typhoon, or Somalia has a famine, or Pakistan has an earthquake, or Bangladesh has a flood, instead of rushing in there with US taxpayer dollars to help them out, we need to tell them, “We’re sorry, but we’re self-righteous oppressors and aggressors, so you really don’t want our help. Have you tried calling Saudi Arabia? We’re sure they’d be delighted to send you all the aid you need. Have a nice day now. Good-bye.”

The reality is, if a Syrian, or an Egyptian, or a Libyan, or a Yemeni goes to fight atheistic Communism, he goes primarily as a Muslim, to fight the enemies of Islam. If an American goes to fight atheistic Communism, he goes primarily as an American, to fight the enemies of the United States. His Christianity might play a role, but it’s not the major one.
Bullseye! Great post!

👍 👍 👍 👍 👍

Vickie
 
This might not be the best place for this but I was eating lunch and reading CNN and saw this.

cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/08/22/iraq.boy/index.html

And all I could think about was this thread and another thread about what is taught in Mosques.

Can someone reconcile this act with Islam? Because this act seems to be secterian violence. So Muslim on Muslim…
 
Quite right. We need to stay completely out of those countries where we are hated.

So the next time Indonesia has a typhoon, or Somalia has a famine, or Pakistan has an earthquake, or Bangladesh has a flood, instead of rushing in there with US taxpayer dollars to help them out, we need to tell them, “We’re sorry, but we’re self-righteous oppressors and aggressors, so you really don’t want our help. Have you tried calling Saudi Arabia? We’re sure they’d be delighted to send you all the aid you need. Have a nice day now. Good-bye.”
It’s not a question of either the US government is “an aggressor and oppressor” or it is “the great dispenser of humanitarian aid.” Both characterizations happen to be true.

Nationalistic Americans will focus on the episodes of US disaster relief while failing to see how US foreign policy often contributes to rather than alleviates suffering and conflict around around the world.

Need I remind you that Osama bin Laden views the Saudi monarchy as a* client of the US*?
The reality is, if a Syrian, or an Egyptian, or a Libyan, or a Yemeni goes to fight atheistic Communism, he goes primarily as a Muslim, to fight the enemies of Islam. If an American goes to fight atheistic Communism, he goes primarily as an American, to fight the enemies of the United States. His Christianity might play a role, but it’s not the major one.
I don’t disagree at all with what you are saying. I do think you may be underestimating the role of Christianity within the ideology of the American nationalism that motivates our hypothetical American anti-Communist crusader.

I am just pointing to the faultiness of the underlying logic of a statement like “Islam is a violent religion because Muslims fight Islam’s ideological enemies (e.g. atheistic communism).” The same could be said of Christianity – and it would be just as false.

Now what can be said is that the relationship between the religious and the political in Islam is different from the relationship between the religious and the political in Christianity. Islam is a political community in a way that Christianity is not and that to an extent a nation like the USA is.

Glibly to classify Christianity as “a religion of peace” and Islam as “a religion of violence” is to miss the point that Islam is not just a religion but a political community – and political communities see themselves as having the right to use armed force (usually claiming to act only “in self defense”).

That all being said, there are many Muslims who do not approve of violence in the name of Islam and telling them that the essence of their faith is violence will only push them to radicalism. I venture that like most Christians most Muslims see their own religion as the inspiration for the good they do in their lives. They won’t appreciate you second-guessing them on that anymore than I, a Catholic, would appreciate an anti-Catholic telling me I am a good person despite being Catholic, or worse yet telling me I cannot be a good person, no matter what good I appear to be doing, because I am a Catholic.

Over-generalizing does not just murder the truth.
 
It’s not a question of either the US government is “an aggressor and oppressor” or it is “the great dispenser of humanitarian aid.” Both characterizations happen to be true.

Nationalistic Americans will focus on the episodes of US disaster relief while failing to see how US foreign policy often contributes to rather than alleviates suffering and conflict around around the world.
There are no easy solutions, no good answers. A good portion of the world will hate us no matter what we do, or don’t do.
Need I remind you that Osama bin Laden views the Saudi monarchy as a* client of the US*?
That’s where Osama and I differ. Frankly, at times I think we’d have been better off to invade Saudi Arabia instead of Iraq.
I don’t disagree at all with what you are saying. I do think you may be underestimating the role of Christianity within the ideology of the American nationalism that motivates our hypothetical American anti-Communist crusader.
Communism, to be honest, is a dead issue in the 21st century. What do we have left? China and Vietnam (which for all intents and purposes are capitalist countries now); North Korea (which between famines and floods could conduct a full-scale war for about five days, maybe two weeks at the most, before they ran out of gas) Cuba (which is more or less hanging out until Fidel dies and they can start angling for American investment dollars); and a few quasi-Marxist states in Africa and South America. Not really a big global threat any more; or, as a kid I was talking to not long ago told me, "Communism was your generations’ bugaboo, not ours."
I am just pointing to the faultiness of the underlying logic of a statement like “Islam is a violent religion because Muslims fight Islam’s ideological enemies (e.g. atheistic communism).” The same could be said of Christianity – and it would be just as false.
Islam is a violent religion because of what’s written in their holy books, because of their recorded history, and because of their behavior over the last 35 years. All the rest of the argument is just noise.
Now what can be said is that the relationship between the religious and the political in Islam is different from the relationship between the religious and the political in Christianity. Islam is a political community in a way that Christianity is not and that to an extent a nation like the USA is.
Glibly to classify Christianity as “a religion of peace” and Islam as “a religion of violence” is to miss the point that Islam is not just a religion but a political community – and political communities see themselves as having the right to use armed force (usually claiming to act only “in self defense”).
That all being said, there are many Muslims who do not approve of violence in the name of Islam and telling them that the essence of their faith is violence will only push them to radicalism. I venture that like most Christians most Muslims see their own religion as the inspiration for the good they do in their lives. They won’t appreciate you second-guessing them on that anymore than I, a Catholic, would appreciate an anti-Catholic telling me I am a good person despite being Catholic, or worse yet telling me I cannot be a good person, no matter what good I appear to be doing, because I am a Catholic.
Over-generalizing does not just murder the truth.
You are entitled to your opinion. My own is that if there was a standoff between the West and Radical Islam on a battlefield, and the fight began to lean in favor of Radical Islam, the West might yell to Moderate, Peaceful Islam, “Lend us a hand!”-----and Moderate, Peaceful Islam would cross their legs, light up a cigarette, and sit there and watch. They would not lift a finger to help us defeat Radical Islam; but it wouldn’t bother them too terribly much if Radical Islam won the war.

I personally view global Islamic terrorism and imperialist motives as just a big a threat to the West as Communism was; and in many ways, just as big as Nazism and Bushido was. You are, of course, under no compulsion whatsoever to agree with me.
 
I don’t know why it is so hard to understand. In Norther Ireland, every Chatholic wasn’t trying to kill every Protestant. Rather, it was intolerant, troublemakers in each faith that were causing the problem.

The media portrays Muslims as violent and intolerant, but that has not been my experience. I have lived in Islamic countries. If you believe what you see no TV, I am wasting my time writing this response.

The majority of Muslims are just like we are. They have no desire to kill or threaten anyone. I am speaking from my personal experiences, not from what I was told by sources that are known to be unreliable (mainstream media).

Certainly there are radical elements within Islam. They would just as soon kill anyone who disagrees with them, but they are a tiny minority of the more than one billion Muslims, worldwide.

The truth is, our politicians brought terrorism to our shores. They knew that these intolerant groups within Islam were content to battle other Islamic groups. They provoked them into attacking us. As a result of this terrorist attack, we are losing our rights, as government usurps more powers - allegedly to fight terrorism. But there was no terrorism until the Neo Cons began sending our military (and I was one of them) into other people’s wars.

Don’t think for one moment that I have any sympathy for people who would fly airplanes into buildings and kill hundreds of innocent people. These people need to be dealt with harshly. But what of the people who provoked them into doing it?

I always ask myself, qui bono? Who benefits? The only beneficiaries of the 11 September attack are those who wanted the Department of Homeland Security, the USA PATRIOT Act, and the conversion of our once free republic into a Nazi state.

It’s called the Hegelian Dialectic. Create the problem, and then provide the solution. The action is in the reaction. The American people cheer as government takes their rights away with the promise of security. The same thing happend in Germany. The German’s elected Hitler to protect them from the violence in the streets, and to create prosterity (remember the promises that accompanied the NAFTA agreement?).
 
abu kamoon:
The truth is, our politicians brought terrorism to our shores. They knew that these intolerant groups within Islam were content to battle other Islamic groups. They provoked them into attacking us. As a result of this terrorist attack, we are losing our rights, as government usurps more powers - allegedly to fight terrorism. But there was no terrorism until the Neo Cons began sending our military (and I was one of them) into other people’s wars.
Neo-cons made the Iranians take hold of the American embassy in Teheran in 1979 where they held American citizens hostage for 444 days and there are still 12 bodies unaccounted for? That was the neo-cons? Maybe this should be posted here instead.
 
“I personally view global Islamic terrorism and imperialist motives as just a big a threat to the West as Communism was; and in many ways, just as big as Nazism and Bushido was.”

I share the same view: the Nazis never–in fact, nobody–pulled off a 9/11 in the U. S., so that anybody who feigns indifference or ignores Islamo-facism and Islamo-terrorism is simply mistaken.
 
I don’t know why it is so hard to understand. In Norther Ireland, every Chatholic wasn’t trying to kill every Protestant. Rather, it was intolerant, troublemakers in each faith that were causing the problem.

The media portrays Muslims as violent and intolerant, but that has not been my experience. I have lived in Islamic countries. If you believe what you see no TV, I am wasting my time writing this response.

The majority of Muslims are just like we are. They have no desire to kill or threaten anyone. I am speaking from my personal experiences, not from what I was told by sources that are known to be unreliable (mainstream media).

Certainly there are radical elements within Islam. They would just as soon kill anyone who disagrees with them, but they are a tiny minority of the more than one billion Muslims, worldwide.

The truth is, our politicians brought terrorism to our shores. They knew that these intolerant groups within Islam were content to battle other Islamic groups. They provoked them into attacking us. As a result of this terrorist attack, we are losing our rights, as government usurps more powers - allegedly to fight terrorism. But there was no terrorism until the Neo Cons began sending our military (and I was one of them) into other people’s wars.
Read “America Alone”. Read “Radical Eye for the Infidel Guy”.

Naivete is a marvelous thing. It is SO amusing in the young, and so like a truly scary movie in the not-so-young.

PLEASE keep conversing here and in every and any forum and blog that you can possibly get onto. We NEED desparately to here “what you say” so as to know best where to apply sense and maturity of action.
Don’t think for one moment that I have any sympathy for people who would fly airplanes into buildings and kill hundreds of innocent people. These people need to be dealt with harshly. But what of the people who provoked them into doing it?
You mean the imams…!? So we agree on something. Excellent…!
I always ask myself, qui bono? Who benefits? The only beneficiaries of the 11 September attack are those who wanted the Department of Homeland Security, the USA PATRIOT Act, and the conversion of our once free republic into a Nazi state.
Who “smells” more like a Nazi? ANY islamic “government” or the USA…?
It’s called the Hegelian Dialectic. Create the problem, and then provide the solution. The action is in the reaction. The American people cheer as government takes their rights away with the promise of security. The same thing happend in Germany. The German’s elected Hitler to protect them from the violence in the streets, and to create prosterity (remember the promises that accompanied the NAFTA agreement?).
Are you benefiting in any way from the evil USA?

If you are, then you NEED to flee the evil, so as not to feed it, and to save yourself and your progeny from it’s evils.

Otherwise,… how much of a hypocrit do you wish to show yourself as?

Best to you, and your paranoid fantasies, as they truly are wonderfully entertaining for you, or at least “invigorating so as to feel a member of a ‘righteous cause’”, to people with “minds” like yours.

Keep learnin’, little one. It’s GOOD for 'ya…! 🙂

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.
 
One does not need to delve deeply into the writtings in the koran-hadith or sura…one only needs to look at the violent behavior of many thousands of adherants of Islam and the attitude of hundreds of millions more who support or favor violence towards non Muslims. A huge number of Muslims are at war with their neighbors worldwide…against Sikhs, Budhists, Christians and Jews. There is at least one web site which documents the attacks daily, some of the victims include beheaded Christian school girls in Indonesia.
Recognizing these attacks and understanding who is reponsible and saying so makes one " rabidly islamophobic" to some. I would never defend someone who murdered innocent people and used the Bible to justify it but most Muslims fail to speak out against their co-religionists and use tu quoque arguments to justify their attacks on all other religions. Christian tolerance and charity should not be mistaken for stupidity and blindness. Being tolerant should not include tolerance of intolerance.
Nobody is going to relegate me to dhimmi status or force my conversion…nobody.
 
There are no easy solutions, no good answers. A good portion of the world will hate us no matter what we do, or don’t do.
Does the fact that there will always be people who will hate us whatever we do or don’t do give us the right to act in ways that give people reasons to hate us?
That’s where Osama and I differ. Frankly, at times I think we’d have been better off to invade Saudi Arabia instead of Iraq.
Then we would see a hundred times as many terrorists coming at us as we have now.
Communism, to be honest, is a dead issue… in
I was only bringing it up for the sake of argument, and you’re dismissing Communism as a threat in the present day is just a tactic to distract us from the issue at hand.

Now, if you are talking about an American who goes off to fight radical Islam then all the more is he likely to be motivated by Christianity.
Islam is a violent religion because of what’s written in their holy books, because of their recorded history, and because of their behavior over the last 35 years. All the rest of the argument is just noise.
Have you read the Old Testament, do you know anything about the history of Christian societies, even their history in the last 35 years?

Evidence could be assembled to prove that Christianity is a violent religion (secularists do it all the time), but, as I’ve said, to reduce a religion to a label like “religion of war” or “religion of peace” is intellectually dishonest or at best simple-minded.
You are entitled to your opinion. My own is that if there was a standoff between the West and Radical Islam on a battlefield, and the fight began to lean in favor of Radical Islam, the West might yell to Moderate, Peaceful Islam, “Lend us a hand!”-----and Moderate, Peaceful Islam would cross their legs, light up a cigarette, and sit there and watch. They would not lift a finger to help us defeat Radical Islam; but it wouldn’t bother them too terribly much if Radical Islam won the war.
Yes, they would (and are) because most Muslims do not want to live in Islamic states such as the radicals are seeking.

Nor do most Muslims want to be oppressed directly by non-Muslim powers or indirectly by Muslim states they consider to be the lackeys of non-Muslim powers. Most Muslims find themselves caught between Muslim extremists and what they see as non-Muslim aggressors and oppressors. Why should they choose the Bin Ladens over the George Bushes when they see the latter as more murderous than the former?

I am not saying that Muslims are not often self-deluding or in denial, but we can’t win them over if we don’t understand how they see things, if we continue to content ourselves with stereotypes, overgeneralizations, and caricatures.
I personally view global Islamic terrorism and imperialist motives as just a big a threat to the West as Communism was; and in many ways, just as big as Nazism and Bushido was. You are, of course, under no compulsion whatsoever to agree with me.
And how fragile, how much of a paper tiger, did Communism turn out to be?

Don’t tell me that there is any Islamic state or organization that is as powerful in today’s world as were the German and Japanese states in the world of the 1930’s. A Saudi Arabia or an Iran might be tempted to engage in economic warfare but they know they would be cutting off their own legs. They are fragile states too whose foreign policy posturings have more to do with internal political struggles than with some program of Islamic world conquest, which they are not in the position to undertake anyway.

Al-Qaida gets a lot of its influence and power from the way Westerners image it as an “existential threat” rather than as simply a criminal network. In invading and occupying Iraq, we have just played into Bin Laden’s hands - he wants a “clash of civilizations,” and we’ve given it to him. Just because he thinks in apocalyptic terms does not mean that all Muslims do or that we ourselves have to start seeing the world through the same Manichaean lenses he wears.
 
“I personally view global Islamic terrorism and imperialist motives as just a big a threat to the West as Communism was; and in many ways, just as big as Nazism and Bushido was.”

I share the same view: the Nazis never–in fact, nobody–pulled off a 9/11 in the U. S., so that anybody who feigns indifference or ignores Islamo-facism and Islamo-terrorism is simply mistaken.
How about Pearl Harbor?
 
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