I'm sick of the rabid Islamophobia on these boards...

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Rodrigo_Bivar said:
Please don’t speculate on what Jesus might have said about the Muslims. The question is very simple…
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Thanks, Rodrigo, for yet another fine example of sophistry, a.k.a. bullsh…-g 👍

I can always count on you to reduce a complex issue into a simple one, and willfull oversimplification is what permits people to do the evil that they do or to condone the evil that others do.

That applies to the Muslim who gives a “free pass” to a suicide bomber, but it also applies to those who are very nonchalant about the “collateral damage” they inflict or permit others to inflict when fighting the suicide bombers.
 
Palladio said:
Athanasiy;2620501:
The
Whether the passages you’ve generously collated and commented on amounts to something I, for one, could appreciate I am not sure. I would want to have the full koine Greek and a lot of learned, brilliant, experienced, and reverend heads to help me before I wanted to think of Christ as not being, first and last, Prince of Peace.

We face tribalism especially in Islamo-terrorism with weapons covert and otherwise that could destroy untold numbers of men, women, and children, and this must be opposed by the sword, but justly
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. But tribes as such cannot be beaten with swords.

Outside of what my RCC has given me–which is God!–I have found no convincing reason whatsoever to give the highest gift, my life, for my fellow man. What form that gift takes in a Catholic view is still up for debate, it seems.

However, the message of Christ is much louder and clearer on love and peace than on war, and we must build bridges in any way possible to our enemies, whom Christ enjoins us to love.

I will second all of this, Palladio!

I believe that in actual historical conflicts the just war theory has often been (perhaps has usually been) abused, but I do not deny that it is an ideal that we should strive for if we really want peace.
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Generic_Man said:
Not just on Non-Catholic Religions, but what feels like every single board people are saying how all muslims are violent people who want to take over the world. Get a freaking grip. Everyone should just admit right here they hardly know anything about Islam apart from what they hear on the news about the latest body count from the Middle East. There are muslim terrorists and there is brutal sectarianism. Christians too have done these things in the past. Does that justify it? No but it should tell you something: that there are good and bad people of all faiths. Do you not know that there are many Muslims who despise all of this stuff? Probably not, most of you guys would likely rank them along with Santa Claus and Bigfoot.
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I’m tired of little old Irish ladies strapping pastic explosives to their walkers and blowing themselves up at the Wal-Mart. :mad:
 
Scott_Lafrance said:
I’m tired of little old Irish ladies strapping pastic explosives to their walkers and blowing themselves up at the Wal-Mart. :mad:
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Hmm… I seem to remember the IRA was not above exploding bombs in civilian contexts.

That wasn’t suicide bombing, but is taking both one’s own life and someone else’s really more evil than just taking someone else’s life and walking off with yours intact?

Governments bomb civilians all the time expressly to terrorize them into surrendering - should we applaud that while reserving our condemnation only for non-state terrorists?

The US (to be sure a whole gamut of other states from the Gulf Arab monarchies to the Soviet regime as well) backed Saddam while he was gasbombing the Kurds. What made that guy OK, but not a Palestinian suicide bomber?

(And before you jump on me, I don’t think either is OK).
 
nonsumd said:
Hmm… I seem to remember the IRA was not above exploding bombs in civilian contexts.

That wasn’t suicide bombing, but is taking both one’s own life and someone else’s really more evil than just taking someone else’s life and walking off with yours intact?

Governments bomb civilians all the time expressly to terrorize them into surrendering - should we applaud that while reserving our condemnation only for non-state terrorists?

The US (to be sure a whole gamut of other states from the Gulf Arab monarchies to the Soviet regime as well) backed Saddam while he was gasbombing the Kurds. What made that guy OK, but not a Palestinian suicide bomber?

(And before you jump on me, I don’t think either is OK).
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I don’t endorse any of that.
 
nonsumd said:
So does the Gospel of John, we should not forget, though I do not blame it or any Christian scriptures for the Holocaust.
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AgnosTheist said:
like what?
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The Gospel of John frequently refers to the enemies of Jesus, people whom Jesus is quoted as critizicising very severely, as “the Jews.”

For instance, in John 18:36, Jesus explains to Pontius Pilate, “If my kingdom were of this world, my followers would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews.” Later, in 19:38, Joseph of Arimathea is described as a “disciple of Jesus but a secret one because of his fear of the Jews.” There is parallel language elsewhere in the New Testament, as when in Acts the disciples are described as hiding in the Upper Room “fear of the Jews.”

From the context (including the context that Jesus and the first disciples were all Jews), it is clear that the phrase “the Jews” should not be interpreted to mean “all Jews.” In later times, however, many Christians read their scriptures to be inciting them to hostility towards all Jews, including those of their own day.

Not all Christians have gotten that message from the Scriptures. Similarly not all Muslims reading the Qur’an find there a command to oppress, much less murder, Jews or Christians in their own time, in a context far removed from that of Muhammad’s time.
 
nonsumd,
Historical points: the IRA was communist: written into their long-standing platform. It was founded by a Protestant. It was run, ultimately, like a mafia and richly funded by the USSR.

I think all Christians can agree that when it took to violence it violated Christianity.
 
nonsumd said:
The Gospel of John frequently refers to the enemies of Jesus, people whom Jesus is quoted as critizicising very severely, as “the Jews.”

For instance, in John 18:36, Jesus explains to Pontius Pilate, “If my kingdom were of this world, my followers would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews.” Later, in 19:38, Joseph of Arimathea is described as a “disciple of Jesus but a secret one because of his fear of the Jews.” There is parallel language elsewhere in the New Testament, as when in Acts the disciples are described as hiding in the Upper Room “fear of the Jews.”

From the context (including the context that Jesus and the first disciples were all Jews), it is clear that the phrase “the Jews” should not be interpreted to mean “all Jews.” In later times, however, many Christians read their scriptures to be inciting them to hostility towards all Jews, including those of their own day.
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Those verses dont really imply anything remotely negative to the jews unless you want to see them as such. Unlike the Quran which actually made apes and pigs out of ‘some’ jews. It also contained direct commands not associate with jews & christians in general. I know most muslims limit this command to times of conflict (like today?).
nonsumd said:
Not all Christians have gotten that message from the Scriptures. Similarly not all Muslims reading the Qur’an find there a command to oppress, much less murder, Jews or Christians in their own time, in a context far removed from that of Muhammad’s time.
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true.
 
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nonsumd:
Many, many Muslims consider jihad to mean primarily '"the struggle to overcome the evil within oneself
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That is pure sophistry on the part of some Muslims to point it out to well-meaning kafirs. It is nothing but a red herring.

This internal non-violent jihad does not concern kafirs. The Muslims can internally jihad themselves 24/7 and we wouldn’t even know about it. They just sit in their homes reading the quran and internally jihad themselves. We wouldn’t know.

The jihad, by the way the one most mentioned in the Quran, that concerns kafirs is the external violent one. Whenever a Muslim talks about Jihad in public it is almost always this violent jihad. Whenever a Muslims talks about jihad in relation to kafirs it is always this jihad.

Do you know the meaning of the word, “Mujahideen”? Those practitioners of jihad? It means He would commits Jihad. I don’t think those people are internally jihading themselves.
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

Kindly quote the relevant verses.

Thanks
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Yes Sir, they are 1 Maccabee 2:50, 64, 67; 1 Macc 4:18; 2 Macc 8:21 & 23, 2 Macc 10:37 & 38, and basically the whole books. I just name a few.

Well, basically the whole 1 & 2 Maccabees are telling about wars. Definitely in our Catholic interpretation of those stories are the faithfulness to the law of God, and heroic wars led by Judas Maccabee against the occupation and forceful indoctrination of Hellenistic culture and belief to the Jews. Nothing more and nothing less. Practically, there is not much theological values in those stories, compared to the letters of St. Paul for example. The stories if you read them completely are full of killing, looting, and revenge in the name of God.

Imagine that one with strong persuasive power preaching to uneducated Catholics (not Protestants, they do not have deuterocanonict), and take those verses out of the context of the whole story (or even the whole book)? Wow, isn’t it the beginning of Christian terrorism?. Thanks to our Magisterium that such thing will never happen in Catholicism. I am also glad that the Irish Republic Army (IRA) may have ceased to exist. Otherwise, they become the example of Catholic terrorism in England.

Remember, the terrorists used to exclaim “Allahuakbar” (God is Great) prior to their actions, and detonate the bombs afterward. I believe the Islamic Jihad verses were taken wrongly and out of the context.
 
swariffin,
Not the out of context chestnut again.

Are the violent verses in the Old Testament descriptive or prescriptive?

The jihad the infidels verses in the Quran are not descriptive - they are prescriptive. They are Islamic Allah telling the Muslims to jihad the infidels. There is no ‘taken wrongly and out of context’.

Please read the Quran, particularly Surah 9, and see for yourself if it is descriptive or prescriptive.
 
Rodrigo_Bivar said:
Freedom of religion - so the Muslims there can freely apostatize and convert to Catholicism?

Maybe in Indonesia and Lebanon but I’m not sure about the other countries.
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Yes Sir, the moslems in Indonesia may convert to Catholicism or any other religion without breaking any law. But, the problem used to come from their community, and it is outside the formal law, sometimes outside the control of law enforcers.
 
Generic_Man said:
Not just on Non-Catholic Religions, but what feels like every single board people are saying how all muslims are violent people who want to take over the world. Get a freaking grip. Everyone should just admit right here they hardly know anything about Islam apart from what they hear on the news about the latest body count from the Middle East. There are muslim terrorists and there is brutal sectarianism. Christians too have done these things in the past. Does that justify it? No but it should tell you something: that there are good and bad people of all faiths. Do you not know that there are many Muslims who despise all of this stuff? Probably not, most of you guys would likely rank them along with Santa Claus and Bigfoot.
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SIR, not to burst your bubble, I was Muslim, back in the 70s, I have read the Qur’an a number of times. I prayed the five daily prayers ( Salaat). I used to go to the Masjid, EVERY FRIDAY. I have listened to the rantings of the Mullas and Imams against the Shatan USA. I discussed with other brother muslims about going to fight Jihad. You my friend are blinding yourself if you think that Islam is not out to get us.
If I went to a Muslim country and declared my conversion to Christianity, as an Apostate from Islam, I would be executed post haste.
 
Palladio said:
nonsumd,
Historical points: the IRA was communist: written into their long-standing platform. It was founded by a Protestant. It was run, ultimately, like a mafia and richly funded by the USSR.

I think all Christians can agree that when it took to violence it violated Christianity.
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Also, with a very few exceptions, the IRA terrorist explosions were for the purpose of shock and threat rather than mass murder. Before a bomb went off in a building the IRA routinely phoned the police, using a prearranged code word so the police knew it wasn’t a hoax, to give the police time to evacuate people. The purpose was to show the population that they COULD commit mass murder if they wanted to. Unlike the moslem terrorists who do everything possible to maximise the number of innocent civilians killed, with no warning.
 
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